Tension with Wife's Family over Finances

[Anonymous]

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- He had her take out "loans" from him informally for college and a graduate degree. He was ticked off at me once I informed him the payments on these "loans" would come to an end once our marriage took place.

- He and my MIL invite us on very expensive vacations and then expect us to cover our own cost which can be in the tens of thousands of dollars for some of the trips he likes.

- Similar situation with restaurants. He will propose an expensive restaurant, order expensive items, and then want to split the check 50/50.

I cut down OP's post above to the examples.

OP, your FIL has a pay-as-you-go approach to life. He wants his kids to be responsible for their own choices but he is still generous enough to advance funds for your wife to do the schooling she wants to do.

You don't say if he has a sexist view of the world where a man/husband is responsible for his wife's money/debt/support but not the other way around. That may complicate things.

I agree that you do not have to pay your FIL for your wife's debts to him. Presumably she plans to work after getting the degree. And perhaps you are carrying the household expenses while she studies. Although maritally you may be jointly responsible for her debts legally, I think ethically she both undertook the obligation and should be prepared to pay it back. Have her settle the repayment plan on her parental loans with her parents and have the payments begin when she starts to earn money. Her dad wants to teach her responsibility. Marrying you so you could pay them off was not likely her plan. Have her figure it out.

Next the vacation. You and your wife should pay your own way if you go. If you do not want to go and do not want to pay, skip the vacation. Norms differ. Only some parents treat. Tell your FIL that your family of origin treats and you are not placing a priority on expensive vacations with your own money because you have x, y, z other goals. Let them get mad.

Restaurants. Split the check. It's another case of different norms. Neither party is more correct. Surely you can afford to socialize with them some of the time.

Your in-laws should be glad to have a son-in-law with zero debt. You should agree to do some things with them even if they aren't "worth it". Those are the concessions you make to be part of an in-law family. You cannot have everything your preferred way.

Sounds like your wife needs to step up her earning to stay in good grades with her family of origin. Encourage her to have a plan. If she decides to be an overexcited SAHM and wants to pay her dad back, you'd best get that hashed out ASAP.

OP here. The not paying the "loan" is a settled topic. There was no formal loan document. The "loan" was an absurd issue in my opinion. Due to her family's financial position she was a full pay student. She attended a private OOS school to the tune of over $200,000. The degree which she is currently pursuing (which I am paying for) is not a highly paid field and my wife will likely be doing a fair amount of charity work. I'm sorry, but the notion that her parents think its reasonable to try and saddle an 18 y/o with such a loan for a low paying degree at a private school is ridiculous and consequently they are the ones who paid after I came on the scene. This non-repayment though is such a miniscule percentage of their net worth that it did not make a difference in their circumstances.

PP. The idea of this "loan" is likely her father's comment on the usefulness of spending $200K on this degree.

There is obviously an attempt here to "teach" something to the daughter. You and your norms from your family of origin are external to it. Whether the lesson seems ridiculous to you is kind of beside the point.

It's not unusual for parents to try and get kids to pay for their college. Even rich ones. From my observation, it does take several generations of wealth to create the kind of family generosity engine that you have benefitted from.

An 18 year old is an adult. It may be the case that your wife could have picked a less expensive college and that a $200K education was an expensive choice she made as an adult. Her father may view that education as a pure luxury that she chose, knowing her career could never pay it back. As a self-made blue collar person, perhaps he did not agree with her path, despite providing the up-front money to fund it.

The more interesting thing here is that you appear to have signed up for an asymmetric financial relationship with your wife. Therefore, you will always be transferring your money (which you consider subsidized by your family's gifts) to cover your wife's expenses. You clearly do not see her as a 50% partner in your money since you do not want to fund the things that she would probably spend money on related to her parents if you did not object. It sounds like she has transferred her loyalty from one controlling man to another. That's why my sister and have chosen to remain high-earning working mothers. We don't want this kind of money-based financial dependency and guilt in our lives.

That's debatable- an 18yo is too young to do a lot of things, and they would never be able to take out this amount on their own. Blue collar dad should never have funded the path if he didn't agree with it.

Blue collar dad wanted to still support his daughter to get a college education. He probably did discuss with her about the ROI on the degree but she still chose this path.

I had a similar discussion with my DC about their chosen major and choosing to go to expensive oos. We discussed at length with DC about what it will mean for their future. They are still insistent. I want to be supportive but they should have skin in the game. We have saved enough in their college savings to pay for three years, and could probably pay for the fourth out of our savings, but we aren't going to do that because they would rather use all of their inheritance money from their grandparents to go to this school for this major than go to a cheaper school or pick a more lucrative major. Again, we have had discussed what this means for them at length. Yes, they are 17/18 and don't know better. Does that mean that we parents should dictate what school they go to and what to major in? You'd probably call that controlling.

IMO, they have a high likelihood of struggling after graduation, but this was their choice. If we had said no to this major, and that we'd only pay for something like business or engineering, I'm sure you would've said we were being jerks.

We literally have no way of knowing that. Good on you for having the hard discussions but plenty of parents don't.

FIL seems like the type of person who would do that if he told her that she had to payback the loan. IMO, she chose this path knowing this and thought it was fine. She, like many 18 year olds, don't think that far into the future. FIL probably knew this and wanted her to have skin in the game. IMO, the fact that he let her choose her path and gave her a 0% interest loan even as he knew the path she chose would mean she would struggle shows he was supportive of her.

If she said she would pay him back, then she should be the one to honor her word and pay back the loan. The fact that she has now decided to go back to school and again, chose a graduate degree that has very low ROI indicates that she is the one taking advantage of her husband and father. She feels entitled to go into a low paying field because she knows someone will always pay her way.

Even OP sees that her chosen field does not lend itself to her being able to pay back the loan. When she does finally get a job, it will be low paying. So, her husband will be subsidizing her one way or the other. She chose to go back to school. Presumably she's now much older than 18 and should know what this means in terms of paying back the loan. But she chose this path anyways. Why should the FIL be the bad guy for her continued bad choices?

This.

My opinion is that the OP is actually frustrated with his wife but for some reason can't verbalize it, so he's putting all his frustrations on the FIL.

[Anonymous]

Are you Asian and your wife white?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You told your father-in-law that your wife wouldn’t be paying back a family loan? No wonder he’s pissed.

OP here. She would not be paying it back with marital income. Since she is now back in school and not earning income that means that I would not be making payments on it with my income.

That’s not how debt works. Jesus, I would hate you too.

Meh. If the FIL wanted to be repaid like a bank then he should have set the loan up with formalities or just made his daughter take out actual loans. While I think in good conscience OP’s wife should try to pay something back, it also seems like the FIL is a cheapskate and possibly using the money to try to control his daughter. Possibly the FIL had no intention of ever collecting on the “loan” but is now acting like a bank that he has a rich son in law. And of course, one expects and hopes that a parent has more regard for the affordability of debt as compared to a shady payday lender …

Yeah I was wondering that too. Like if she didn't marry someone wealthy would FIL still be inivitng them on expensive pay-your-own-way trips while collecting on this loan? Because when I was paying back my loans (not nearly as much as the one in question here) as young professional there was no way I could afford expensive travel. I was scouring Southwest deals.

But she is married to a rich man, and they can afford to pay back the loan. They can also choose to not go to these dinners and trips.

Where is the wife in all this? Does she say no to the parents when they say they want to go to an expensive trip or dinner? She seems to have no backbone but wants the men in her life to subsidize her poor choices, and then not have to deal with the consequences of those choices.

She chose twice to get a degree that doesn't pay much. She seems to have gone from one rich man to another expecting them to pay her way.

This man is selfish and controlling. She needs to get a job.

pp here. I don't disagree that the FIL sounds controlling, but so does her DH. And she also sounds like a leech expecting the men her in life to pay her way for the bad choices she makes.

I agree they both sound controlling, but the DW took out a loan from her dad. Now SHE doesn't want to pay and blaming it on OP that she isn't paying. What would she have done if she hadn't married and wanted to go back to school? Another loan from Dad? What would have happened to the payments then? Deferred until she was employed again and just have bigger payments?

She can pay it back when she's done with school again if he insists on repayment. Obviously, borrowing money from her dad was a terrible mistake. Look what a mess it is causing in her marriage. She would've been better off borrowing from a third party lender.

She will be making very little when she's done with school. Per OP, she's going into a nonprofit, and they pay very little. So, realistically, OP will still be indirectly paying for her loan.

It seems that OP has his feathers up because he thinks his wealthy FIL shouldn't expect or need the loan repaid. Basically, OP expects FIL to see his wealth the same way OP's sees their family wealth. And that's wrong. OP has never had to build his wealth. He has no clue what that's like and how hard that is. He shouldn't expect his FIL to see money the same way, and especially the wife.

[Anonymous]

OP, you have a point about the restaurant if he’s spending much more one what he orders. For the rest, you’re wrong. Loans are between you and your wife, but if she owes him that money, she should keep paying. For the trips, don’t go on trips you don’t want to spend so much money on, and tell in-laws the reason. Suggest a cheaper alternative.

Your notion that your family’s way is better and your in-laws should pay for your trips and meals is just your opinion. Would it nice? Sure. Maybe they think it would be nice for their daughter to treat them. Who knows. But families do things differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you Asian and your wife white?

? what a weird comment.

White people don't help out their families?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you Asian and your wife white?

? what a weird comment.

White people don't help out their families?

No, they generally don't have this "family collective mindset" that is part of whatever culture OP is but not saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did everyone miss this gem?

"I feel it is essentially my parents/grandparents subsidizing him because they paid for my medical school which is the only reason I can afford to pay for these trips. "

This is so effed up. It actually mirrors plantation wealth and entitlement and inequities today.

That's like Cora Crawley in Downton Abbey saying "No Grantham, the Levinson dry good business is why I'm so rich and I won't have my dry goods daddy paying off your debts"

Yes, that part jumped out at me too. Pretty sure it’s someone just trolling us. I don’t know anyone would think that in real life.

Well at least he got conversation going! 😂

[Anonymous]

Nowhere did I read that OP wanted his ILs to pay for his trips or meals. Op's cost for his own portion of a trip, a trip his ILs have chosen, is more money than he wants to spend. And a check split 50/50 reflects more expense for the OP than what he ordered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your view is strange to me, especially on the loans. If they had been private loans, she wouldn’t be able to stop paying. She owes the money to her father and he deserves to be repaid. DH helped me pay off my loans and he came from a background of lower means than I did. It was very generous of him. Why wouldn’t you be as generous towards your wife as you would be towards other relatives? Your father-in-law isn’t asking for any handouts. He is asking for you and your wife to pay your share.

Because the FIL should have paid for college.

[Anonymous]

Why is your wife signing up for degrees that are low-paid? Usually when you're good enough, you can get a scholarship for a grad degree. You married someone who is not as smart/ambitious/capable as your side of the family. A mistake. It takes special skill to blow 200K on an OOS and end up with nothing. I also agree that instead of taking your frustrations out on the FIL, who seems a blue-collar guy who built himself up, you should look at your wife. Seems like a dud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nowhere did I read that OP wanted his ILs to pay for his trips or meals. Op's cost for his own portion of a trip, a trip his ILs have chosen, is more money than he wants to spend. And a check split 50/50 reflects more expense for the OP than what he ordered.

He doesn't want to subsidized his wife's family but loves to subsidize his own family. Because he hasn't accepted his wife's family as real family. What a creep for a husband.

[Anonymous]

Doesn't the wife have any say in the family income? OP is all me and mine. Nothing is ours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:You told your father-in-law that your wife wouldn’t be paying back a family loan? No wonder he’s pissed.

OP here. She would not be paying it back with marital income. Since she is now back in school and not earning income that means that I would not be making payments on it with my income.

That’s not how debt works. Jesus, I would hate you too.

Meh. If the FIL wanted to be repaid like a bank then he should have set the loan up with formalities or just made his daughter take out actual loans. While I think in good conscience OP’s wife should try to pay something back, it also seems like the FIL is a cheapskate and possibly using the money to try to control his daughter. Possibly the FIL had no intention of ever collecting on the “loan” but is now acting like a bank that he has a rich son in law. And of course, one expects and hopes that a parent has more regard for the affordability of debt as compared to a shady payday lender …

Yeah I was wondering that too. Like if she didn't marry someone wealthy would FIL still be inivitng them on expensive pay-your-own-way trips while collecting on this loan? Because when I was paying back my loans (not nearly as much as the one in question here) as young professional there was no way I could afford expensive travel. I was scouring Southwest deals.

But she is married to a rich man, and they can afford to pay back the loan. They can also choose to not go to these dinners and trips.

Where is the wife in all this? Does she say no to the parents when they say they want to go to an expensive trip or dinner? She seems to have no backbone but wants the men in her life to subsidize her poor choices, and then not have to deal with the consequences of those choices.

She chose twice to get a degree that doesn't pay much. She seems to have gone from one rich man to another expecting them to pay her way.

This man is selfish and controlling. She needs to get a job.

pp here. I don't disagree that the FIL sounds controlling, but so does her DH. And she also sounds like a leech expecting the men her in life to pay her way for the bad choices she makes.

I agree they both sound controlling, but the DW took out a loan from her dad. Now SHE doesn't want to pay and blaming it on OP that she isn't paying. What would she have done if she hadn't married and wanted to go back to school? Another loan from Dad? What would have happened to the payments then? Deferred until she was employed again and just have bigger payments?

She can pay it back when she's done with school again if he insists on repayment. Obviously, borrowing money from her dad was a terrible mistake. Look what a mess it is causing in her marriage. She would've been better off borrowing from a third party lender.

She will be making very little when she's done with school. Per OP, she's going into a nonprofit, and they pay very little. So, realistically, OP will still be indirectly paying for her loan.

It seems that OP has his feathers up because he thinks his wealthy FIL shouldn't expect or need the loan repaid. Basically, OP expects FIL to see his wealth the same way OP's sees their family wealth. And that's wrong. OP has never had to build his wealth. He has no clue what that's like and how hard that is. He shouldn't expect his FIL to see money the same way, and especially the wife.

But if OP is paying for everything else in their life, she can just send her take home pay to Dear Dad. Even if she's only netting $20k a year she could pay it off in 10 years. And just decline the invites for trips until she's done repaying. FIL also needs to learn that he can't have his cake and eat it too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you Asian and your wife white?

I was thinking the same thing, just not WASP for the white wife.

I actually agree with the OP based on his updates. The FIL isn’t entitled to his SIL’s money. The FIL gave his daughter an informal loan supporting a bad choice to rack up hundreds of thousands in debt for a low paying field. Either the FIL a. isn’t a long term planner/bad with money, b.is controlling and always wanted something over his daughters head or c.wanted her to marry up and have her husbands family compensate him. The FIL is probably not happy his daughter married an Asian.

FIL is blue collar and doesn’t know how to handle money. He spends lavishly while trying to spend a cent on his kids education if he can get away with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is your wife signing up for degrees that are low-paid? Usually when you're good enough, you can get a scholarship for a grad degree. You married someone who is not as smart/ambitious/capable as your side of the family. A mistake. It takes special skill to blow 200K on an OOS and end up with nothing. I also agree that instead of taking your frustrations out on the FIL, who seems a blue-collar guy who built himself up, you should look at your wife. Seems like a dud.

People make bad decisions when they have a backstop. Perhaps Dad didn't want to waste money on a worthless degree, especially if he's blue-collar rich. He wanted utility, so he gave her a loan instead to make her feel like she had skin in the game and was making utilitarian choices about her degree. My dad is blue-collar rich and was happy to pay for law or medical school, but not a degree in French Literature. Maybe OP should have put his foot down, too? It sounds like she's wasting marital money on another useless degree. I could be wrong - it just sounds that way.