Massive cheating on SAT?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still don’t get it—if their universities are better than ours, why are their students so desperate to get into U.S. colleges, even to the point of cheating? That just doesn’t add up.

And ironically 2024-2025 we see surge in international students in US colleges even with Trump administration.

1. Very difficult to get into top universities in China.

2. Cachet/prestige from studying abroad is a significant advantage in gaining employment in China.

3. Many want opportunity to emigrate to US and college is an initial step in that process.

Okay, but if their economy is supposedly doing better than the U.S., at least according to the media, I don’t get why they’d want to come here at all—given the current economic mess and high unemployment and underemployment for American NGs. Same with Indian students. Why?

Our salaries are much higher for the same difficulty of job. They can send some home to family and the purchasing power is pretty good. Also some Asian employers have longer workdays and more than 5 days per week as a basic schedule.

Also, having known people from these countries, many of them appreciate our freedom of mobility (even car-centric culture), our relatively nice and large residences (apartments to houses), our less grindy and more socially mobile schools, some freedom from political fear, clean air in our cities, less openly-visible poverty, etc. Also the US still has cutting edge technology and businesses of great interest (Silicon Valley, etc.).

I work with many STEM immigrants who have become citizens or have other legal arrangements. None of them would prefer to leave the US to go "home". They are fairly assimilated since most came during grad school. Their children are born here and usually don't have firm ties to their parents' birth countries except for visiting relatives on vacation.

Okay, but this is where things feel contradictory to me. On one hand, the media on both sides talks about how strong China has become—and to be fair, some of that is true. The infrastructure and industrial growth there are clearly outpacing many developed countries, and at the same time, U.S. companies are still rushing to outsource jobs overseas.

But if China is really doing that well, why do so many people still try to come here for anchor babies, or send their kids to the U.S. for education? And meanwhile on DCUM, people constantly virtue-signal about how merit-based U.S. college admissions supposedly are compared to ours.

So what’s the real story here? If China is so strong and the system works so well, why is there still such a strong pull toward the U.S.? Is the media exaggerating, or are people’s actions telling a different truth?

It’s a country run by democrats in the extreme—forced abortion/child limit policies, social scores and forced conformity to unanimous political thought, where the hell is Jack Ma?/community property. People have to escape for political freedom.

If you do a little research, you will find the one child policy to be unevenly enforced. I remember reading profiles in the NYT of ordinarly Chinese who talked about their 2 or 3 other siblings but of course the reporter never expanded on that wrinkle in the family profiles. Ethnic minorities of which there are many and rural residents were officially allowed 2. There was a story of some rural peasant who had 7 sons and his mentally ill wife has found by a local tourist chained to an outdoor shed. She was basically being used as a breeding machine. Gotta wonder how the village party rep failed to notice that.
The conformity issue? There are actually a lot of voices and code slang the censors are constantly trying to figure out. Only a few years ago there were the strolling protests where people came out in droves to stroll - which isn't illegal but a LOT of people would gather to do that as a form of protest.
Community property? You do know there has been a private real estate bust after a lot of hor real estate speculation the country has been trying to deal with.
Jack Ma is still around. The government decided he was getting too big for his britches when he started to openly criticize them so they got him on some charges.

As for political freedom, I am not sure that was a priority over economic freedom. The party is given the people the latter and that has whet the appetite for the former. Maybe with more responsibility handed to the people, political responsibility will follow.
This form of government has only been around for 50 years. If past is prologue, we should look further into its history to divine what is in store.

I broke the rules here because I listed some names in my original reply but China really hasn’t given much in the way of economic freedom. It’s mostly going that way because of the excess demand and jobs created by the United States capitalist system have been foisted upon them. They’re still derisive of anyone with their own money over there and so many executives have been locked up and fined for bogus reasons

The end of collective farming, the ability to own real estate, run your own business and the opening up of the stock exchange amongst many other factors point to a LOT of economic changes.
I dont know who the Chinese are that you say are derisive of personal wealth because the Chinese have long associated wealth with success and face.
And love to flaunt it. Who do you think is holding up LVMH and its ilk?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still don’t get it—if their universities are better than ours, why are their students so desperate to get into U.S. colleges, even to the point of cheating? That just doesn’t add up.

And ironically 2024-2025 we see surge in international students in US colleges even with Trump administration.

1. Very difficult to get into top universities in China.

2. Cachet/prestige from studying abroad is a significant advantage in gaining employment in China.

3. Many want opportunity to emigrate to US and college is an initial step in that process.

Okay, but if their economy is supposedly doing better than the U.S., at least according to the media, I don’t get why they’d want to come here at all—given the current economic mess and high unemployment and underemployment for American NGs. Same with Indian students. Why?

Why do students come here from these two countries? For different reasons.

- China - Because, it is easy to excel in USA. The rest of the US population does not offer much of a challenge. Even mediocre students in China can become the top students here because the White students cannot compete with them. India - It is the same for Indian students. They can excel here. Especially the STEM students are able to use the infrastructure in the labs to make innovations and discoveries which would not be possible in most universities in India.

- China - The moneyed class in China can easily buy land and businesses here so that the communist leadership does not take away their wealth...as it has happened in history. India - The moneyed class buys land in India and villas in Dubai and UK. USA does not have the allure because you do not get cheap household help.

- China - Chinese govt makes the Chinese students steal research and technology from the USA universities and companies. Ideologically it is seen as a good thing. India - Indians who come to USA have never stolen research or technology. Infact, their work is stolen by unscrupulous professors. Indians have deep-seated religious belief of Karma...also, the Indian Govt has no vision for the country and people. There is zero desire to improve the country by stealing technology. Indian govt will also sell out their own people who will do that.

- India - Pollution and filth everywhere has made most of India unliveable. Indians are leaving the country because you cannot breathe in major cities. Infrastructure is shit. Unfortunately, India should not have become a democracy. We should have become a communist state like China.

I don’t agree with most of these statements. Regardless of the circumstances, top students should lead their communities toward improving quality of life, rather than leaving for other countries to escape challenges. Doing otherwise is selfish. It does not convince anyone that the students are superior it only reinforce the impression that they are for themselves.

Completely agree.
There are a good number of Chinese who return home. An American degree is still considered fancy and opens doors there.
I dont know if it is the caste system but India does not seem to have any motivation to do anything for its people. If that is what democracy looks like, it's neighbor, China, is not impressed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still don’t get it—if their universities are better than ours, why are their students so desperate to get into U.S. colleges, even to the point of cheating? That just doesn’t add up.

And ironically 2024-2025 we see surge in international students in US colleges even with Trump administration.

1. Very difficult to get into top universities in China.

2. Cachet/prestige from studying abroad is a significant advantage in gaining employment in China.

3. Many want opportunity to emigrate to US and college is an initial step in that process.

Okay, but if their economy is supposedly doing better than the U.S., at least according to the media, I don’t get why they’d want to come here at all—given the current economic mess and high unemployment and underemployment for American NGs. Same with Indian students. Why?

Why do students come here from these two countries? For different reasons.

- China - Because, it is easy to excel in USA. The rest of the US population does not offer much of a challenge. Even mediocre students in China can become the top students here because the White students cannot compete with them. India - It is the same for Indian students. They can excel here. Especially the STEM students are able to use the infrastructure in the labs to make innovations and discoveries which would not be possible in most universities in India.

- China - The moneyed class in China can easily buy land and businesses here so that the communist leadership does not take away their wealth...as it has happened in history. India - The moneyed class buys land in India and villas in Dubai and UK. USA does not have the allure because you do not get cheap household help.

- China - Chinese govt makes the Chinese students steal research and technology from the USA universities and companies. Ideologically it is seen as a good thing. India - Indians who come to USA have never stolen research or technology. Infact, their work is stolen by unscrupulous professors. Indians have deep-seated religious belief of Karma...also, the Indian Govt has no vision for the country and people. There is zero desire to improve the country by stealing technology. Indian govt will also sell out their own people who will do that.

- India - Pollution and filth everywhere has made most of India unliveable. Indians are leaving the country because you cannot breathe in major cities. Infrastructure is shit. Unfortunately, India should not have become a democracy. We should have become a communist state like China.

I think PP's points are spot on. An average Chinese student can easily out performed an US student. An average Chinese graduate here in the US will also have a much better life than an average Chinese graduate in China. This is why they come here: to escape the intense competition in China and to have an easier life, free from political, societal norms and expectations.

The average private school Chinese or Indian student out performs the average US student (across the entire population).

The truly average Chinese or Indian student is barely literate. That's why the PISA scores for China are only for private school kids in Beijing and Shanghai (PISA stopped including China because of this), while India scored basically dead last out of like 100 countries and stopped sitting for the test.

Now...China and India have tons of people so even if only 10% of kids can attend private schools, that still produces lots of kids.

Yeah India has more honors students than the entire US population for scale

Yet the average person’s quality of life remains subpar. Why is that? Where did that capability go—toward improving society as a whole, or merely toward benefiting themselves? Sounds to me people in India should be able to uplift their life style just like the rest of the Asian countries.

[Anonymous]

This thread is not about why students from China want to study in the US, but why do they always cheat?

If they’re better than most students here, there’s even more reason for them to not rely on cheating!

Even for those who don’t treat, they take the test over and over again!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread is not about why students from China want to study in the US, but why do they always cheat?

If they’re better than most students here, there’s even more reason for them to not rely on cheating!

Even for those who don’t treat, they take the test over and over again!

If the goal is to identify the right students, then this discussion—and the New York Times article—suggests that schools need better methods to do so. Having others write students’ essays is simply another form of cheating. The whole admission thing is gradually feeling like clown show.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still don’t get it—if their universities are better than ours, why are their students so desperate to get into U.S. colleges, even to the point of cheating? That just doesn’t add up.

And ironically 2024-2025 we see surge in international students in US colleges even with Trump administration.

1. Very difficult to get into top universities in China.

2. Cachet/prestige from studying abroad is a significant advantage in gaining employment in China.

3. Many want opportunity to emigrate to US and college is an initial step in that process.

Okay, but if their economy is supposedly doing better than the U.S., at least according to the media, I don’t get why they’d want to come here at all—given the current economic mess and high unemployment and underemployment for American NGs. Same with Indian students. Why?

Why do students come here from these two countries? For different reasons.

- China - Because, it is easy to excel in USA. The rest of the US population does not offer much of a challenge. Even mediocre students in China can become the top students here because the White students cannot compete with them. India - It is the same for Indian students. They can excel here. Especially the STEM students are able to use the infrastructure in the labs to make innovations and discoveries which would not be possible in most universities in India.

- China - The moneyed class in China can easily buy land and businesses here so that the communist leadership does not take away their wealth...as it has happened in history. India - The moneyed class buys land in India and villas in Dubai and UK. USA does not have the allure because you do not get cheap household help.

- China - Chinese govt makes the Chinese students steal research and technology from the USA universities and companies. Ideologically it is seen as a good thing. India - Indians who come to USA have never stolen research or technology. Infact, their work is stolen by unscrupulous professors. Indians have deep-seated religious belief of Karma...also, the Indian Govt has no vision for the country and people. There is zero desire to improve the country by stealing technology. Indian govt will also sell out their own people who will do that.

- India - Pollution and filth everywhere has made most of India unliveable. Indians are leaving the country because you cannot breathe in major cities. Infrastructure is shit. Unfortunately, India should not have become a democracy. We should have become a communist state like China.

I don’t agree with most of these statements. Regardless of the circumstances, top students should lead their communities toward improving quality of life, rather than leaving for other countries to escape challenges. Doing otherwise is selfish. It does not convince anyone that the students are superior it only reinforce the impression that they are for themselves.

Most Americans are in it for ourselves! It's a good fit! This is how capitalism prefers to work...the economic motives created by private ownership and wealth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still don’t get it—if their universities are better than ours, why are their students so desperate to get into U.S. colleges, even to the point of cheating? That just doesn’t add up.

And ironically 2024-2025 we see surge in international students in US colleges even with Trump administration.

1. Very difficult to get into top universities in China.

2. Cachet/prestige from studying abroad is a significant advantage in gaining employment in China.

3. Many want opportunity to emigrate to US and college is an initial step in that process.

Okay, but if their economy is supposedly doing better than the U.S., at least according to the media, I don’t get why they’d want to come here at all—given the current economic mess and high unemployment and underemployment for American NGs. Same with Indian students. Why?

Why do students come here from these two countries? For different reasons.

- China - Because, it is easy to excel in USA. The rest of the US population does not offer much of a challenge. Even mediocre students in China can become the top students here because the White students cannot compete with them. India - It is the same for Indian students. They can excel here. Especially the STEM students are able to use the infrastructure in the labs to make innovations and discoveries which would not be possible in most universities in India.

- China - The moneyed class in China can easily buy land and businesses here so that the communist leadership does not take away their wealth...as it has happened in history. India - The moneyed class buys land in India and villas in Dubai and UK. USA does not have the allure because you do not get cheap household help.

- China - Chinese govt makes the Chinese students steal research and technology from the USA universities and companies. Ideologically it is seen as a good thing. India - Indians who come to USA have never stolen research or technology. Infact, their work is stolen by unscrupulous professors. Indians have deep-seated religious belief of Karma...also, the Indian Govt has no vision for the country and people. There is zero desire to improve the country by stealing technology. Indian govt will also sell out their own people who will do that.

- India - Pollution and filth everywhere has made most of India unliveable. Indians are leaving the country because you cannot breathe in major cities. Infrastructure is shit. Unfortunately, India should not have become a democracy. We should have become a communist state like China.

I think PP's points are spot on. An average Chinese student can easily out performed an US student. An average Chinese graduate here in the US will also have a much better life than an average Chinese graduate in China. This is why they come here: to escape the intense competition in China and to have an easier life, free from political, societal norms and expectations.

Nonsense. Also, your poor grasp of English highlights your deficiencies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still don’t get it—if their universities are better than ours, why are their students so desperate to get into U.S. colleges, even to the point of cheating? That just doesn’t add up.

And ironically 2024-2025 we see surge in international students in US colleges even with Trump administration.

1. Very difficult to get into top universities in China.

2. Cachet/prestige from studying abroad is a significant advantage in gaining employment in China.

3. Many want opportunity to emigrate to US and college is an initial step in that process.

Okay, but if their economy is supposedly doing better than the U.S., at least according to the media, I don’t get why they’d want to come here at all—given the current economic mess and high unemployment and underemployment for American NGs. Same with Indian students. Why?

Why do students come here from these two countries? For different reasons.

- China - Because, it is easy to excel in USA. The rest of the US population does not offer much of a challenge. Even mediocre students in China can become the top students here because the White students cannot compete with them. India - It is the same for Indian students. They can excel here. Especially the STEM students are able to use the infrastructure in the labs to make innovations and discoveries which would not be possible in most universities in India.

- China - The moneyed class in China can easily buy land and businesses here so that the communist leadership does not take away their wealth...as it has happened in history. India - The moneyed class buys land in India and villas in Dubai and UK. USA does not have the allure because you do not get cheap household help.

- China - Chinese govt makes the Chinese students steal research and technology from the USA universities and companies. Ideologically it is seen as a good thing. India - Indians who come to USA have never stolen research or technology. Infact, their work is stolen by unscrupulous professors. Indians have deep-seated religious belief of Karma...also, the Indian Govt has no vision for the country and people. There is zero desire to improve the country by stealing technology. Indian govt will also sell out their own people who will do that.

- India - Pollution and filth everywhere has made most of India unliveable. Indians are leaving the country because you cannot breathe in major cities. Infrastructure is shit. Unfortunately, India should not have become a democracy. We should have become a communist state like China.

I don’t agree with most of these statements. Regardless of the circumstances, top students should lead their communities toward improving quality of life, rather than leaving for other countries to escape challenges. Doing otherwise is selfish. It does not convince anyone that the students are superior it only reinforce the impression that they are for themselves.

Most Americans are in it for ourselves! It's a good fit! This is how capitalism prefers to work...the economic motives created by private ownership and wealth.

Great look at what's happening now!

[Anonymous]

It is crazy international tests. For instance in the country of Bahrain where average yearly income is $2,097 and you can take the SAT and CPA exam there.

Given a full years income is $2,097 and test centers are very lax and run by local people who dont even really have a good grasp on US Drivers Licenses if fake or not I can imagine if you had $2,000 USD finding someone to take exam is pretty easy. Honestly, the testing center at best might not let person sit for exam. I highly doubt anyone cares if caught in that country.

According to my records an SAT exam proctor makes around $20 USD per exam in that country. Heck pay him or her $5,000 to look other way and that is 250 worth of SAT tests he had to proctor in one shot. .

[Anonymous]

They cheat because they are getting away with it and they know racist Chinese and Indians in the United States will prefer to hire them over non immigrant Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They cheat because they are getting away with it and they know racist Chinese and Indians in the United States will prefer to hire them over non immigrant Americans.

They don’t just cheat, but they often get around the system using loopholes. I do believe such behaviors are the product of their own system — they don’t know how to behave in a high-trust society.

[Anonymous]

Is that why 40% of Stanford undergraduates are on disability of some kind. Honest folks “them”.
Is that why essays are written by outside consultants?
Is that why students are graded the way they are graded?
Introspection is what is called for here.

[Anonymous]

I no longer consider us a high-trust society. There’s too much dysfunction in the system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still don’t get it—if their universities are better than ours, why are their students so desperate to get into U.S. colleges, even to the point of cheating? That just doesn’t add up.

And ironically 2024-2025 we see surge in international students in US colleges even with Trump administration.

1. Very difficult to get into top universities in China.

2. Cachet/prestige from studying abroad is a significant advantage in gaining employment in China.

3. Many want opportunity to emigrate to US and college is an initial step in that process.

4. Some are getting paid to maybe do a little “observing.”

[Anonymous]

Most kids at DC's feeder have Chinese tutors who have access to leaked test questions from recent tests, which are never released to the public. It's rampant and unfair.