School choice vs. attendance zones

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the root cause. We as a nation should not have imported large amounts of poverty. That is it. Now some schools suffer.

Straw man. We have always been a country of immigrants, many of them poor.

So send your kids to Herndon or Annandale. People are clearly avoiding these schools - sequestering themselves in fewer and fewer FCPS schools - and it's not because of a bunch of poor native U.S. citizens. FCPS was not always this way.

Another straw man. A good student at Herndon or Annandale should have the chance to apply to a good school so that they have an equal chance to be successful.

Look. OP wants to enable people to avoid "bad" schools. Bad schools are primarily perceived as bad based on test scores and say, college placement. But in FCPS all schools are generally provided with solid educational resources.

So the performance basically comes down to the student body. A few schools have absorbed the vast majority of immigrant children. These children are typically poor and ESL. Many with limited education in their home country. FCPS school results reflect this challenge. To deny this is insanity.FCPS has made things worse by concentrating poverty and creating incentives for people to transfer.

So what the OP is proposing is already happening in practice (through transfers and selective home purchases), and it has caused further decline in those schools that have the large ESL / poor populations.

But it all started with importation of large numbers of poor immigrants. Just a fact.

Maybe you’re right, maybe you’re wrong. Take your immigration rhetoric elsewhere because that’s not the point.

Good students at bad schools should have the ability to apply to a different school for any reason. It shouldn’t depend on a specific program and it certainly shouldn’t depend on a home purchase.

So work around and live with the issue, but don't fix the underlying problem. Got it. Eventually the only good schools will be private.

Hyperbole. Can you really not form an argument without a fallacy?

Whatever, go to private if you want.

Said the person who can't dispute the facts. Troll.

Stop derailing this thread. You’ve already been told that we are not arguing what led to the demise of some schools. Start your own thread if you want.

Oh and calling someone a troll is a form of trolling btw. Move on or be reported.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do we not have that? Choose Japanese and go to that school. Choose IB and transfer to that school.

It favors wealthy families who can understand the system and find time or money to transport their kids across town. It makes the poor schools even poorer.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Houston does this (and others). I think it's a reasonable idea. It's similar already to what FCPS has on a smaller scale (immersion, arts and science, etc magnets). Logistically there are challenges: buses, where people who don't engage go, second choice, hours, etc. etc.

But it gets around the loopholes that people are already finding.

There are avenues for pupil placement, but to an even greater extent with the diversity of programs FCPS encourages people to seek out certain pyramids to live if you want those programs for your kids. You probably don’t move into the Langley district if you want IB, you don’t move into the Lake Braddock district if you oppose the secondary school model, you seek out the Fairfax district if you want the performing arts academy, etc.

We don’t need to emulate struggling city school districts (or the DCC in MCPS) with their complicated choice programs desperately attempting to retain MC and UMC families.

Disagree. Where you buy shouldn’t determine what is available. Furthermore, a family that prefers one AP school over another AP school should not be told by the county which they must attend. The county doesn’t get to tell you which public park you are zoned for.

Sorry you bought in a school zone without actually thinking it through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not abolish attendance zones and allow families to apply to the schools they think are best for their kids within the county? If there are more apps than seats, choose by lottery. This should appeal to both conservatives and liberals. Conservatives love school choice and liberals love increased diversity in schools.

Doesn't seem like it would work, logistically.

Say for instance, I live near Chantilly High and want my kid to go there. The school is oversubscribed already, so no reason to think that in your model, they wouldn't have considerably more apps than seats. So in a lottery, my kid who lives nearby could be assigned to a school that is further away, and since that's not my choice, now the county is on the hook for providing transportation to that school. Now the county would be stuck running different bus routes in the same neighborhood to send kids to potentially multiple different schools (keeping in mind that the next closest school is probably the oversubscribed Centreville High, and the nearly at capacity Westfield High).

Stop the drivel of why it couldn’t happen and focus on why it could work. The phds at Gatehouse could work out bus routes. Run the same bus to Chantilly, Westfield and Centreville. If your kid applies to all three you could probably get one of them.

What non-existent problem are you trying to solve here?

Why would I apply for my kid to go to schools that are inconvenient to get to? If I apply and get into a school, then I'm on the hook for transportation, not the county. Not to mention, all the PhDs at Gatehouse can't manifest more buses or bus drivers, or magically make our roads more commuter friendly.

The problem is some high schools in the county are failing. Students in those schools deserve to apply to other schools. You win too because you can apply to any schools you want for your kid. This isn’t that hard

Why? By the metrics you are likely using to label a school “failing,” it appears the families at those schools should redouble their efforts to help their kids succeed. All you want is kids moved around to mask a problem, and you wouldn’t even succeed at that. If you’re that unhappy with your current option, pupil place, go private, or move.

+1
It is not that the schools are failing it is that they have a high needs group of kids to educate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Houston does this (and others). I think it's a reasonable idea. It's similar already to what FCPS has on a smaller scale (immersion, arts and science, etc magnets). Logistically there are challenges: buses, where people who don't engage go, second choice, hours, etc. etc.

But it gets around the loopholes that people are already finding.

There are avenues for pupil placement, but to an even greater extent with the diversity of programs FCPS encourages people to seek out certain pyramids to live if you want those programs for your kids. You probably don’t move into the Langley district if you want IB, you don’t move into the Lake Braddock district if you oppose the secondary school model, you seek out the Fairfax district if you want the performing arts academy, etc.

We don’t need to emulate struggling city school districts (or the DCC in MCPS) with their complicated choice programs desperately attempting to retain MC and UMC families.

Disagree. Where you buy shouldn’t determine what is available. Furthermore, a family that prefers one AP school over another AP school should not be told by the county which they must attend. The county doesn’t get to tell you which public park you are zoned for.

Sorry you bought in a school zone without actually thinking it through.

Why should the county be allowed to discriminate based on income?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not abolish attendance zones and allow families to apply to the schools they think are best for their kids within the county? If there are more apps than seats, choose by lottery. This should appeal to both conservatives and liberals. Conservatives love school choice and liberals love increased diversity in schools.

Doesn't seem like it would work, logistically.

Say for instance, I live near Chantilly High and want my kid to go there. The school is oversubscribed already, so no reason to think that in your model, they wouldn't have considerably more apps than seats. So in a lottery, my kid who lives nearby could be assigned to a school that is further away, and since that's not my choice, now the county is on the hook for providing transportation to that school. Now the county would be stuck running different bus routes in the same neighborhood to send kids to potentially multiple different schools (keeping in mind that the next closest school is probably the oversubscribed Centreville High, and the nearly at capacity Westfield High).

Stop the drivel of why it couldn’t happen and focus on why it could work. The phds at Gatehouse could work out bus routes. Run the same bus to Chantilly, Westfield and Centreville. If your kid applies to all three you could probably get one of them.

What non-existent problem are you trying to solve here?

Why would I apply for my kid to go to schools that are inconvenient to get to? If I apply and get into a school, then I'm on the hook for transportation, not the county. Not to mention, all the PhDs at Gatehouse can't manifest more buses or bus drivers, or magically make our roads more commuter friendly.

The problem is some high schools in the county are failing. Students in those schools deserve to apply to other schools. You win too because you can apply to any schools you want for your kid. This isn’t that hard

Why? By the metrics you are likely using to label a school “failing,” it appears the families at those schools should redouble their efforts to help their kids succeed. All you want is kids moved around to mask a problem, and you wouldn’t even succeed at that. If you’re that unhappy with your current option, pupil place, go private, or move.

+1
It is not that the schools are failing it is that they have a high needs group of kids to educate.

Okay. Why shouldn’t good students in bad schools be allowed to apply to a good school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the root cause. We as a nation should not have imported large amounts of poverty. That is it. Now some schools suffer.

Straw man. We have always been a country of immigrants, many of them poor.

Nor are all students at bad schools immigrants.

+1, lots of lower performing schools all over the US are filled with Caucasian students. A lot of those students are poor.

Not all poor kids are bad / struggling students but most struggling students are poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the root cause. We as a nation should not have imported large amounts of poverty. That is it. Now some schools suffer.

Straw man. We have always been a country of immigrants, many of them poor.

Nor are all students at bad schools immigrants.

+1, lots of lower performing schools all over the US are filled with Caucasian students. A lot of those students are poor.

Not all poor kids are bad / struggling students but most struggling students are poor.

You’re right, wealth is tied to success. Why shouldn’t a poor student with academic promise be allowed to apply to a better school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the root cause. We as a nation should not have imported large amounts of poverty. That is it. Now some schools suffer.

Straw man. We have always been a country of immigrants, many of them poor.

Nor are all students at bad schools immigrants.

+1, lots of lower performing schools all over the US are filled with Caucasian students. A lot of those students are poor.

Not all poor kids are bad / struggling students but most struggling students are poor.

You’re right, wealth is tied to success. Why shouldn’t a poor student with academic promise be allowed to apply to a better school?

They have quotas to get into TJ and they can pupil place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the root cause. We as a nation should not have imported large amounts of poverty. That is it. Now some schools suffer.

Straw man. We have always been a country of immigrants, many of them poor.

Nor are all students at bad schools immigrants.

+1, lots of lower performing schools all over the US are filled with Caucasian students. A lot of those students are poor.

Not all poor kids are bad / struggling students but most struggling students are poor.

You’re right, wealth is tied to success. Why shouldn’t a poor student with academic promise be allowed to apply to a better school?

They have quotas to get into TJ and they can pupil place.

TJ obviously isn’t an option for most kids. Why limit it to pupil placement when you could allow good students at bad schools to apply to good schools for any reason? You don’t have to pupil place to patronize a different county library or park because you choose which library or park you want to begin with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the root cause. We as a nation should not have imported large amounts of poverty. That is it. Now some schools suffer.

Straw man. We have always been a country of immigrants, many of them poor.

Nor are all students at bad schools immigrants.

+1, lots of lower performing schools all over the US are filled with Caucasian students. A lot of those students are poor.

Not all poor kids are bad / struggling students but most struggling students are poor.

You’re right, wealth is tied to success. Why shouldn’t a poor student with academic promise be allowed to apply to a better school?

They have quotas to get into TJ and they can pupil place.

TJ obviously isn’t an option for most kids. Why limit it to pupil placement when you could allow good students at bad schools to apply to good schools for any reason? You don’t have to pupil place to patronize a different county library or park because you choose which library or park you want to begin with.

What is the result for the "bad" schools in your scenario and the students who can't easily transfer? Just sucks to be them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the root cause. We as a nation should not have imported large amounts of poverty. That is it. Now some schools suffer.

Straw man. We have always been a country of immigrants, many of them poor.

Nor are all students at bad schools immigrants.

+1, lots of lower performing schools all over the US are filled with Caucasian students. A lot of those students are poor.

Not all poor kids are bad / struggling students but most struggling students are poor.

You’re right, wealth is tied to success. Why shouldn’t a poor student with academic promise be allowed to apply to a better school?

They have quotas to get into TJ and they can pupil place.

TJ obviously isn’t an option for most kids. Why limit it to pupil placement when you could allow good students at bad schools to apply to good schools for any reason? You don’t have to pupil place to patronize a different county library or park because you choose which library or park you want to begin with.

What is the result for the "bad" schools in your scenario and the students who can't easily transfer? Just sucks to be them?

That’s a real problem indeed. But something is better than nothing. Kids that want to get out of bad schools could find a way to apply and transfer. This isn’t necessarily driving across the county. Kids could find a way to attend a better school as close to home as possible. If you have a better idea please share it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not abolish attendance zones and allow families to apply to the schools they think are best for their kids within the county? If there are more apps than seats, choose by lottery. This should appeal to both conservatives and liberals. Conservatives love school choice and liberals love increased diversity in schools.

Why because school choice sucks it ruins public schools and I’m not paying to put your kid in a religious program to be indoctrinated

School vouchers is a perfectly good way to offer chouce.

What OP is describing is not school choice and is the surest path to ruining public education.

The data say otherwise.

Vouchers have largely not improved or harmed student achievement.

Open enrollment, charters, and magnets have -- on average -- provided benefits in urban contexts (not Fairfax obvs).

DC has open enrollment but with guaranteed entry to your neighborhood school so only somewhat different than what OP is suggesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the root cause. We as a nation should not have imported large amounts of poverty. That is it. Now some schools suffer.

Straw man. We have always been a country of immigrants, many of them poor.

Nor are all students at bad schools immigrants.

+1, lots of lower performing schools all over the US are filled with Caucasian students. A lot of those students are poor.

Not all poor kids are bad / struggling students but most struggling students are poor.

You’re right, wealth is tied to success. Why shouldn’t a poor student with academic promise be allowed to apply to a better school?

They have quotas to get into TJ and they can pupil place.

TJ obviously isn’t an option for most kids. Why limit it to pupil placement when you could allow good students at bad schools to apply to good schools for any reason? You don’t have to pupil place to patronize a different county library or park because you choose which library or park you want to begin with.

What is the result for the "bad" schools in your scenario and the students who can't easily transfer? Just sucks to be them?

That’s a real problem indeed. But something is better than nothing. Kids that want to get out of bad schools could find a way to apply and transfer. This isn’t necessarily driving across the county. Kids could find a way to attend a better school as close to home as possible. If you have a better idea please share it.

Let's say we the ave six "failing" high schools in FCPS. Do you propose squeezing all of the students from those into the 17 good schools? Numbers say there are students who get screwed by this scenario since that can't happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at the root cause. We as a nation should not have imported large amounts of poverty. That is it. Now some schools suffer.

Straw man. We have always been a country of immigrants, many of them poor.

Nor are all students at bad schools immigrants.

+1, lots of lower performing schools all over the US are filled with Caucasian students. A lot of those students are poor.

Not all poor kids are bad / struggling students but most struggling students are poor.

You’re right, wealth is tied to success. Why shouldn’t a poor student with academic promise be allowed to apply to a better school?

They have quotas to get into TJ and they can pupil place.

TJ obviously isn’t an option for most kids. Why limit it to pupil placement when you could allow good students at bad schools to apply to good schools for any reason? You don’t have to pupil place to patronize a different county library or park because you choose which library or park you want to begin with.

What is the result for the "bad" schools in your scenario and the students who can't easily transfer? Just sucks to be them?

That’s a real problem indeed. But something is better than nothing. Kids that want to get out of bad schools could find a way to apply and transfer. This isn’t necessarily driving across the county. Kids could find a way to attend a better school as close to home as possible. If you have a better idea please share it.

Let's say we the ave six "failing" high schools in FCPS. Do you propose squeezing all of the students from those into the 17 good schools? Numbers say there are students who get screwed by this scenario since that can't happen.

Not everyone would apply to attend a different school. Some students would choose to stay in a bad school for various reasons. I’m sure if a student wanted to stay at Herndon that would not be a problem for that student.