Why do we tolerate trash talking and elitism as "boys will be boys" behavior?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People are missing the "elitism" part of OP's comment.

This isn't about close friends ribbing each other because of that time one of them mispronounced "great" as "grafe" and then it winds up becoming an inside joke that is, yes, at your friend's expense but is really more about remembering how hard that made you all laugh when it happened.

This is about kids who say stuff to other kids like "whatever, you don't even have a PS5, you're lame." Or "haha Theo is slow, so glad we can do travel soccer now and don't have to play with him." Or "your parents are broke, those shoes look like you got them out of a garbage bin." None of this is friendly roasting. It's just rude, unkind, arrogant, elitist behavior. It is immaturity, but it's the kind that you have to intervene on early and often to curb them of this impulse to put others down in order to build themselves up.

It's fine for kids to make jokes and yes, sometimes they will make a joke thinking it's fine and instead they'll try to make a "grafe" style joke and instead their friend will cry because they are kids and that kid might not have realized we're all laughing together on this. That's normal.

But it is not normal and should not be acceptable for kids to put down other kids for their intelligence, looks, weight, SES level, or athletic ability. Anymore than it would be acceptable to make fun of a kid for their skin color. It's just a hard no. If your kid is making fun of a classmate for being fat or slow or dumb, your kid is being a jerk and you need to intervene and set them straight. Not send them to comedy school.

This +1

There’s a major difference between being a jerk who puts down others to make themself feel better, and friends who take jabs at each other. To an outside observer who happens to overhear— they might *seem* the same—but it’s really not.

But also kids can and do go a bit too far and hurt someone’s feelings unintentionally.

That’s where Larlo needs to stand up for himself and say something like “hey, that’s not cool bro. Can you not make a joke like that?” Even after the fact in a one on one conversation if the joke was initially in a group setting. Not sit there and ruminate after laughing it off—no body is a mind reader.

And then the kid who said the hurtful joke needs to apologize,, make clear they didn’t mean to offend, and then make a mental note that “Making a joke about Larlo and ‘____’ is off limits”. Not get defensive and play it off as “wow Larlo, you can’t take a joke. Get over it dude.”

These are good social skills that some kids might need to be taught and/or reminded of if they aren’t super socially savvy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are missing the "elitism" part of OP's comment.

This isn't about close friends ribbing each other because of that time one of them mispronounced "great" as "grafe" and then it winds up becoming an inside joke that is, yes, at your friend's expense but is really more about remembering how hard that made you all laugh when it happened.

This is about kids who say stuff to other kids like "whatever, you don't even have a PS5, you're lame." Or "haha Theo is slow, so glad we can do travel soccer now and don't have to play with him." Or "your parents are broke, those shoes look like you got them out of a garbage bin." None of this is friendly roasting. It's just rude, unkind, arrogant, elitist behavior. It is immaturity, but it's the kind that you have to intervene on early and often to curb them of this impulse to put others down in order to build themselves up.

It's fine for kids to make jokes and yes, sometimes they will make a joke thinking it's fine and instead they'll try to make a "grafe" style joke and instead their friend will cry because they are kids and that kid might not have realized we're all laughing together on this. That's normal.

But it is not normal and should not be acceptable for kids to put down other kids for their intelligence, looks, weight, SES level, or athletic ability. Anymore than it would be acceptable to make fun of a kid for their skin color. It's just a hard no. If your kid is making fun of a classmate for being fat or slow or dumb, your kid is being a jerk and you need to intervene and set them straight. Not send them to comedy school.

This +1

There’s a major difference between being a jerk who puts down others to make themself feel better, and friends who take jabs at each other. To an outside observer who happens to overhear— they might *seem* the same—but it’s really not.

But also kids can and do go a bit too far and hurt someone’s feelings unintentionally.

That’s where Larlo needs to stand up for himself and say something like “hey, that’s not cool bro. Can you not make a joke like that?” Even after the fact in a one on one conversation if the joke was initially in a group setting. Not sit there and ruminate after laughing it off—no body is a mind reader.

And then the kid who said the hurtful joke needs to apologize,, make clear they didn’t mean to offend, and then make a mental note that “Making a joke about Larlo and ‘____’ is off limits”. Not get defensive and play it off as “wow Larlo, you can’t take a joke. Get over it dude.”

These are good social skills that some kids might need to be taught and/or reminded of if they aren’t super socially savvy.

+1. This is why parents don’t shut down all roasting. Because there are social skills to be learned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are missing the "elitism" part of OP's comment.

This isn't about close friends ribbing each other because of that time one of them mispronounced "great" as "grafe" and then it winds up becoming an inside joke that is, yes, at your friend's expense but is really more about remembering how hard that made you all laugh when it happened.

This is about kids who say stuff to other kids like "whatever, you don't even have a PS5, you're lame." Or "haha Theo is slow, so glad we can do travel soccer now and don't have to play with him." Or "your parents are broke, those shoes look like you got them out of a garbage bin." None of this is friendly roasting. It's just rude, unkind, arrogant, elitist behavior. It is immaturity, but it's the kind that you have to intervene on early and often to curb them of this impulse to put others down in order to build themselves up.

It's fine for kids to make jokes and yes, sometimes they will make a joke thinking it's fine and instead they'll try to make a "grafe" style joke and instead their friend will cry because they are kids and that kid might not have realized we're all laughing together on this. That's normal.

But it is not normal and should not be acceptable for kids to put down other kids for their intelligence, looks, weight, SES level, or athletic ability. Anymore than it would be acceptable to make fun of a kid for their skin color. It's just a hard no. If your kid is making fun of a classmate for being fat or slow or dumb, your kid is being a jerk and you need to intervene and set them straight. Not send them to comedy school.

This +1

There’s a major difference between being a jerk who puts down others to make themself feel better, and friends who take jabs at each other. To an outside observer who happens to overhear— they might *seem* the same—but it’s really not.

But also kids can and do go a bit too far and hurt someone’s feelings unintentionally.

That’s where Larlo needs to stand up for himself and say something like “hey, that’s not cool bro. Can you not make a joke like that?” Even after the fact in a one on one conversation if the joke was initially in a group setting. Not sit there and ruminate after laughing it off—no body is a mind reader.

And then the kid who said the hurtful joke needs to apologize,, make clear they didn’t mean to offend, and then make a mental note that “Making a joke about Larlo and ‘____’ is off limits”. Not get defensive and play it off as “wow Larlo, you can’t take a joke. Get over it dude.”

These are good social skills that some kids might need to be taught and/or reminded of if they aren’t super socially savvy.

My kid lost and shifted friend groups a lot around age 11-12. The better athletes move up at this age and you are either HS team material or still rec. Many kids quit rec sports by middle school. Not all the trash talking kids move up. My kid went from the kid hearing a lot of trash talking kids to one of the better athletes at his school. I have tried to coach him to be kind. I don’t think or hope he doesn’t say mean things to the unathletic kids. I believe he doesn’t hang out with them so much in middle school. The athletic boys start hanging out together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are missing the "elitism" part of OP's comment.

This isn't about close friends ribbing each other because of that time one of them mispronounced "great" as "grafe" and then it winds up becoming an inside joke that is, yes, at your friend's expense but is really more about remembering how hard that made you all laugh when it happened.

This is about kids who say stuff to other kids like "whatever, you don't even have a PS5, you're lame." Or "haha Theo is slow, so glad we can do travel soccer now and don't have to play with him." Or "your parents are broke, those shoes look like you got them out of a garbage bin." None of this is friendly roasting. It's just rude, unkind, arrogant, elitist behavior. It is immaturity, but it's the kind that you have to intervene on early and often to curb them of this impulse to put others down in order to build themselves up.

It's fine for kids to make jokes and yes, sometimes they will make a joke thinking it's fine and instead they'll try to make a "grafe" style joke and instead their friend will cry because they are kids and that kid might not have realized we're all laughing together on this. That's normal.

But it is not normal and should not be acceptable for kids to put down other kids for their intelligence, looks, weight, SES level, or athletic ability. Anymore than it would be acceptable to make fun of a kid for their skin color. It's just a hard no. If your kid is making fun of a classmate for being fat or slow or dumb, your kid is being a jerk and you need to intervene and set them straight. Not send them to comedy school.

This +1

There’s a major difference between being a jerk who puts down others to make themself feel better, and friends who take jabs at each other. To an outside observer who happens to overhear— they might *seem* the same—but it’s really not.

But also kids can and do go a bit too far and hurt someone’s feelings unintentionally.

That’s where Larlo needs to stand up for himself and say something like “hey, that’s not cool bro. Can you not make a joke like that?” Even after the fact in a one on one conversation if the joke was initially in a group setting. Not sit there and ruminate after laughing it off—no body is a mind reader.

And then the kid who said the hurtful joke needs to apologize,, make clear they didn’t mean to offend, and then make a mental note that “Making a joke about Larlo and ‘____’ is off limits”. Not get defensive and play it off as “wow Larlo, you can’t take a joke. Get over it dude.”

These are good social skills that some kids might need to be taught and/or reminded of if they aren’t super socially savvy.

My kid lost and shifted friend groups a lot around age 11-12. The better athletes move up at this age and you are either HS team material or still rec. Many kids quit rec sports by middle school. Not all the trash talking kids move up. My kid went from the kid hearing a lot of trash talking kids to one of the better athletes at his school. I have tried to coach him to be kind. I don’t think or hope he doesn’t say mean things to the unathletic kids. I believe he doesn’t hang out with them so much in middle school. The athletic boys start hanging out together.

Exactly be best. Trash talk or die of embarrassment cause you are “still rec” (the horror!!!)🧟‍♂️

[Anonymous]

We have been doing rec. team sports since kindergarten, and all the trash talking that I hear so far are from those kids playing team sports ,especially at basketball practice/game from a few white families. Those boys are so mean and unkind, and they are not the best players. They talk down other kids to make them look better. We have moved our boy to another teams in rec. basketball and rec. soccer that are played by many indians/Asians/black, the atmosphere is really nice and friendly. Minorites parents treat rec. sports as exercise and social play, not s gateway to get college scholarship. I think serious players at elite or travel team may behave a lot better because they really love the sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are missing the "elitism" part of OP's comment.

This isn't about close friends ribbing each other because of that time one of them mispronounced "great" as "grafe" and then it winds up becoming an inside joke that is, yes, at your friend's expense but is really more about remembering how hard that made you all laugh when it happened.

This is about kids who say stuff to other kids like "whatever, you don't even have a PS5, you're lame." Or "haha Theo is slow, so glad we can do travel soccer now and don't have to play with him." Or "your parents are broke, those shoes look like you got them out of a garbage bin." None of this is friendly roasting. It's just rude, unkind, arrogant, elitist behavior. It is immaturity, but it's the kind that you have to intervene on early and often to curb them of this impulse to put others down in order to build themselves up.

It's fine for kids to make jokes and yes, sometimes they will make a joke thinking it's fine and instead they'll try to make a "grafe" style joke and instead their friend will cry because they are kids and that kid might not have realized we're all laughing together on this. That's normal.

But it is not normal and should not be acceptable for kids to put down other kids for their intelligence, looks, weight, SES level, or athletic ability. Anymore than it would be acceptable to make fun of a kid for their skin color. It's just a hard no. If your kid is making fun of a classmate for being fat or slow or dumb, your kid is being a jerk and you need to intervene and set them straight. Not send them to comedy school.

This +1

There’s a major difference between being a jerk who puts down others to make themself feel better, and friends who take jabs at each other. To an outside observer who happens to overhear— they might *seem* the same—but it’s really not.

But also kids can and do go a bit too far and hurt someone’s feelings unintentionally.

That’s where Larlo needs to stand up for himself and say something like “hey, that’s not cool bro. Can you not make a joke like that?” Even after the fact in a one on one conversation if the joke was initially in a group setting. Not sit there and ruminate after laughing it off—no body is a mind reader.

And then the kid who said the hurtful joke needs to apologize,, make clear they didn’t mean to offend, and then make a mental note that “Making a joke about Larlo and ‘____’ is off limits”. Not get defensive and play it off as “wow Larlo, you can’t take a joke. Get over it dude.”

These are good social skills that some kids might need to be taught and/or reminded of if they aren’t super socially savvy.

My kid lost and shifted friend groups a lot around age 11-12. The better athletes move up at this age and you are either HS team material or still rec. Many kids quit rec sports by middle school. Not all the trash talking kids move up. My kid went from the kid hearing a lot of trash talking kids to one of the better athletes at his school. I have tried to coach him to be kind. I don’t think or hope he doesn’t say mean things to the unathletic kids. I believe he doesn’t hang out with them so much in middle school. The athletic boys start hanging out together.

Exactly be best. Trash talk or die of embarrassment cause you are “still rec” (the horror!!!)🧟‍♂️

Well that’s pretty sarcastic, negative, judgmental and mean.

But your comment doesn’t bother me. It smells of insecurity, which I can understand, as feeling insecure is very human. It also seems like you’re struggling with something.

All of that said, I think there’s a decent chance you think you’re a good person. I can imagine you may have friends, and you might make jokes together about these sorts of things, maybe even making fun of the kids who believe in travel vs rec. It might come across as mean to some people, but it’s human for friends to understand each others’ insecurities and rather than figure them out, try to make some amorphous group — society? Trash talking kids? Feel bad about the pressure you feel.

Not every conversation has to be done in a perfectly therapeutic way, especially amongst kids, especially when grownups can’t model the same. Also who wants to be friends with someone who’s therapeutically empathetic all the time?

[Anonymous]

So do you think your trash talker is a nice kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have personally seen this in girls as well as boys. I can't tell if it's just the culture at our elementary school or what, but the kids are super mean to each other (we are leaving after this year, for several reasons, but honestly this aspect of the culture is part of it).

I have seen boys and girls "roast" other kids for offenses like needing after school tutoring, being slower than other kids in gym, not being familiar with some tv show/movie/video game, having parents who aren't as well off. My kids have also told me about teasing that happens because a child expresses any ambition (i.e. making fun of a kid who says they want to be a doctor when they grow up) or for being unfamiliar with terms related to drugs or sex (yes, I know, again -- we are leaving).

Some of the kids also attempt to roast adults.

It seems to start around 2nd grade at the school (our oldest is in 2nd) though I saw some of it in 1st. However, in 1st, teachers would say something about it and at least some of the other parents would also speak up. Now no one seems to care. Some adults seem to think it's a positive thing, a way for kids to show confidence and be "resilient."

I'm totally baffled. At first I was shocked but now I'm just confused. Why would you raise kids like this? Separately, teachers and some parents complain about "behavioral issues" at school, by which they mean kids who push or shove or make scenes in class. To me it's all obviously connected. These kids are not being taught to be respectful of other people, or that their actions can negatively effect others and they have a responsibility to work on themselves and be better.

Do I tease my kids? Yes. Do my friends make fun of me? Yes. Do my kids make fun of their friends and vice versa? Yes.

The problem is not teasing and roasting. The problem is adults not teaching kids to do it well, so kids are on their own to figure it out on the playground away from adults.

It’s really hard for kids to learn how to do. Sometimes they don’t mean to hurt a feeling but they do. Sometimes they feel hurt but they smile. There are false signals thrown in. It’s all hard to figure out.

Don’t look at 60 roasting kids and assume they and their parents are all mean people who are ok with being mean. Those parents may be working on a skill set that frankly, may benefit your child to learn too.

When kids (or adults) are making fun of other kids for being "less than" in some way (struggling academically, being less athletic, having parents with less money, having fewer material things or as many experiences), they are being mean.

There is not some special skill for making fun of people for being or having less than you. This is mean, bullying behavior, no matter the age if the person doing it or how clever they are in doing it.

The proper response to a kid doing this is "don't, that is mean."

It's not "oh they just haven't figured out how to do this the way adults do it, where they couch it as a joke so they can pretend they don't mean it, or couch it as concern so it seems like they are trying to help, or they only discuss it behind your back so they can pretend never to have said it at all."

Did you watch the Friends clip? Do you ever watch Modern Family? People make fun of each other for something they might be sensitive about all the time.

Some adults hear kids do this and call it all mean. All that does is make the kids do it in secret. Sort of the same way girls group up and whisper in secret, a bunch of things that are snarky but a bunch that are not.

Kids who have adults figuring out whether their trash talk was out of jealousy or superiority or fun have a much better chance of teaching their kids to be good people (and good roasters).

You think people should behave like characters on sitcoms? You think that's the standard for human interaction?

Those aren't real people. Characters on sitcoms make fun of each other constantly because the people who write sitcoms are under pressure to ensure there are at least 3 jokes on every page of script. Literally, they count them, and they get notes from networks about upping just keep rates.

Jokes at another person's expense are mean, but easy. So if you need to produce humor, it's an easy target. Easier than social commentary. And much easier for performers than broad comedy or physical humor. It's also cheap.

So yes, people in sitcoms relentlessly "roast" each other and never get too mad about it (unless their anger might be funny). Because they aren't real people and because their whole job is to produce a laugh.

IRL, people have feelings, and that's mean.

Yes in my real life my friends, family and I are accepting of our flaws and make fun of ourselves and each other. It is not mean when it makes us feel good, understood and accepted.

It is mean when it hurts someone’s feelings. This is also how inner circles develop. You can’t be friends with someone who calls this blanket mean, especially when both recipient and deliverer partake joyfully.

Kids in 2nd grade don’t have inner circles. They don’t know what will make one kid feel great will make another cry sometimes until it happens. When they make mistakes, they should absolutely apologize. They sometimes don’t know how sensitive they are until they themselves have hurt feelings and cry.

You are assuming what you do is universal and accepted, and it's not.

Also, even in functional in-groups where teasing us ok, the precursor is love and full acceptance of one another. And enough knowledge to know what is off limits and not, plus how to repair when a line is crossed. It takes deep love and trust.

How do you build that live and trust? Kindness and empathy. So if you want your kids to come say understand how to tease a very close friend it family member correctly, you encourage kindness and empathy and discourage meanness. Their relationships will naturally become more sophisticated later, but the foundation isn't "roasting ." You start with kindness.

No, I’m not assuming what I do, how I feel, or how my relationships develop are universal. You are.

You’re assuming you know how 8yos feel enough to not tolerate roasting point blank. I’m saying that there are many times when roasting is wrong and inappropriate, and that kids make mistakes. And that the mistakes are developmental.

But you don’t have to take my word for it. There are child development experts and therapists who can help explain.

Your argument is that teasing and "roasting" (which is just a euphemism for making fun of someone) is normal and valuable in relationships. That's a value judgment you think is universally correct but what many people on this thread are saying is that they don't like it, not even in adults, not in close relationships.

And then you are passive aggressive about it, claiming people who do this "know how to laugh at themselves." That's a separate issue. All the kindest people I know, who do not go around taking the piss out of all their family and friends, have the ability to laugh at themselves. It's probably one of the reasons they are so kind -- they are accepting of themselves and their own faults and it makes them accepting of others faults as well. Making fun of someone because they struggle with something is not accepting. It's unkind.

You are just inventing a bunch of excuses for mean behavior and then acting like other people are simply not as evolved as you are. But what was your example of why this behavior is normal? Television sitcoms. You think because the characters on Friends or Modern Family are constantly making fun of each other, that's what a loving, accepting family or friend group looks like. That's fiction! IRL, close family and friends don't incessantly make jokes at one another's expense because that is mean, and functional relationships don't tolerate a lot of meanness in them.

And now you're claiming to be some kind of childhood development expert? Good lord. Parent your kids. Tell them it is unkind to make fun of other children. You don't need to sign them up for "roasting lessons" so that they learn to make fun of people in socially acceptable ways. That's a good way to turn your kid into a stand up comic, but it's not a good way to raise a kind, upstanding person.

You need to grow up.

First of all you’re talking to multiple posters.

No one’s saying you have to have relationships where you roast. What’s being said is that you can’t police everyone else’s relationships.

If your kid wants to never be roasted, that’s fine. Your child can refuse to not have any relationships that involve roasting and condemn all who do. Your child can have different types of friendships. However you can’t police every other child’s friendships.

It is up to you to conclude that every child who roasts is horrible as are their parents. I would say that you’re missing out on having nice, fun kids in your kids’ orbit.

Also to any parent who concludes that any school that allows this is horrible, good luck finding a “good” mainstream school.

DH is 45 and he and his friends “roast” one another. I mean they may be trash talking one another’s sports teams or how bad someone is at golf, but they all laugh about it.

That competing trash talking in sports plays down as kids get older. It may turn into straight up bullying if your kid is unathletic. It sounds like OP and others are talking about the norm sports trash talk though. I think this only happens when your kid is good enough to be trash talked about. If your kid didn’t play at all, then they would have nothing to talk about.

This type of competition never ends btw. My oldest is in high school. This time of year the kids know where they are heading to college and there seems to be a pecking order on how good of a college you are going to. We live in a competitive world.

Yeah “your college is lame and for stupid kids” is Friars Club worthy material. What an evolution.

“Roasting” is not a thing. It’s just moms who think having boys makes them superior or more understanding of their poorly chosen husbands making peace with their lives. Nit-picking little dick behavior is not cool, and these scenarios aren’t Barkley and Shaq equally having a go at each other. It’s stupid, it’s humorless, it’s mean, it’s something that separated and does not bond, and every idiot tripping over herself to celebrate this quality cries quietly and fires up a “disappointed” post in these forums on her birthday, Mother’s Day, and so on. It’s not about laughing at yourself at all, come on.

[Anonymous]

Loving the rationalizations in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are missing the "elitism" part of OP's comment.

This isn't about close friends ribbing each other because of that time one of them mispronounced "great" as "grafe" and then it winds up becoming an inside joke that is, yes, at your friend's expense but is really more about remembering how hard that made you all laugh when it happened.

This is about kids who say stuff to other kids like "whatever, you don't even have a PS5, you're lame." Or "haha Theo is slow, so glad we can do travel soccer now and don't have to play with him." Or "your parents are broke, those shoes look like you got them out of a garbage bin." None of this is friendly roasting. It's just rude, unkind, arrogant, elitist behavior. It is immaturity, but it's the kind that you have to intervene on early and often to curb them of this impulse to put others down in order to build themselves up.

It's fine for kids to make jokes and yes, sometimes they will make a joke thinking it's fine and instead they'll try to make a "grafe" style joke and instead their friend will cry because they are kids and that kid might not have realized we're all laughing together on this. That's normal.

But it is not normal and should not be acceptable for kids to put down other kids for their intelligence, looks, weight, SES level, or athletic ability. Anymore than it would be acceptable to make fun of a kid for their skin color. It's just a hard no. If your kid is making fun of a classmate for being fat or slow or dumb, your kid is being a jerk and you need to intervene and set them straight. Not send them to comedy school.

This +1

There’s a major difference between being a jerk who puts down others to make themself feel better, and friends who take jabs at each other. To an outside observer who happens to overhear— they might *seem* the same—but it’s really not.

But also kids can and do go a bit too far and hurt someone’s feelings unintentionally.

That’s where Larlo needs to stand up for himself and say something like “hey, that’s not cool bro. Can you not make a joke like that?” Even after the fact in a one on one conversation if the joke was initially in a group setting. Not sit there and ruminate after laughing it off—no body is a mind reader.

And then the kid who said the hurtful joke needs to apologize,, make clear they didn’t mean to offend, and then make a mental note that “Making a joke about Larlo and ‘____’ is off limits”. Not get defensive and play it off as “wow Larlo, you can’t take a joke. Get over it dude.”

These are good social skills that some kids might need to be taught and/or reminded of if they aren’t super socially savvy.

My kid lost and shifted friend groups a lot around age 11-12. The better athletes move up at this age and you are either HS team material or still rec. Many kids quit rec sports by middle school. Not all the trash talking kids move up. My kid went from the kid hearing a lot of trash talking kids to one of the better athletes at his school. I have tried to coach him to be kind. I don’t think or hope he doesn’t say mean things to the unathletic kids. I believe he doesn’t hang out with them so much in middle school. The athletic boys start hanging out together.

Exactly be best. Trash talk or die of embarrassment cause you are “still rec” (the horror!!!)🧟‍♂️

Well that’s pretty sarcastic, negative, judgmental and mean.

But your comment doesn’t bother me. It smells of insecurity, which I can understand, as feeling insecure is very human. It also seems like you’re struggling with something.

All of that said, I think there’s a decent chance you think you’re a good person. I can imagine you may have friends, and you might make jokes together about these sorts of things, maybe even making fun of the kids who believe in travel vs rec. It might come across as mean to some people, but it’s human for friends to understand each others’ insecurities and rather than figure them out, try to make some amorphous group — society? Trash talking kids? Feel bad about the pressure you feel.

Not every conversation has to be done in a perfectly therapeutic way, especially amongst kids, especially when grownups can’t model the same. Also who wants to be friends with someone who’s therapeutically empathetic all the time?

“My star son and his wife don’t talk to me anymore and I’m very socially savvy and don’t know why” - it’s coming…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have personally seen this in girls as well as boys. I can't tell if it's just the culture at our elementary school or what, but the kids are super mean to each other (we are leaving after this year, for several reasons, but honestly this aspect of the culture is part of it).

I have seen boys and girls "roast" other kids for offenses like needing after school tutoring, being slower than other kids in gym, not being familiar with some tv show/movie/video game, having parents who aren't as well off. My kids have also told me about teasing that happens because a child expresses any ambition (i.e. making fun of a kid who says they want to be a doctor when they grow up) or for being unfamiliar with terms related to drugs or sex (yes, I know, again -- we are leaving).

Some of the kids also attempt to roast adults.

It seems to start around 2nd grade at the school (our oldest is in 2nd) though I saw some of it in 1st. However, in 1st, teachers would say something about it and at least some of the other parents would also speak up. Now no one seems to care. Some adults seem to think it's a positive thing, a way for kids to show confidence and be "resilient."

I'm totally baffled. At first I was shocked but now I'm just confused. Why would you raise kids like this? Separately, teachers and some parents complain about "behavioral issues" at school, by which they mean kids who push or shove or make scenes in class. To me it's all obviously connected. These kids are not being taught to be respectful of other people, or that their actions can negatively effect others and they have a responsibility to work on themselves and be better.

Do I tease my kids? Yes. Do my friends make fun of me? Yes. Do my kids make fun of their friends and vice versa? Yes.

The problem is not teasing and roasting. The problem is adults not teaching kids to do it well, so kids are on their own to figure it out on the playground away from adults.

It’s really hard for kids to learn how to do. Sometimes they don’t mean to hurt a feeling but they do. Sometimes they feel hurt but they smile. There are false signals thrown in. It’s all hard to figure out.

Don’t look at 60 roasting kids and assume they and their parents are all mean people who are ok with being mean. Those parents may be working on a skill set that frankly, may benefit your child to learn too.

When kids (or adults) are making fun of other kids for being "less than" in some way (struggling academically, being less athletic, having parents with less money, having fewer material things or as many experiences), they are being mean.

There is not some special skill for making fun of people for being or having less than you. This is mean, bullying behavior, no matter the age if the person doing it or how clever they are in doing it.

The proper response to a kid doing this is "don't, that is mean."

It's not "oh they just haven't figured out how to do this the way adults do it, where they couch it as a joke so they can pretend they don't mean it, or couch it as concern so it seems like they are trying to help, or they only discuss it behind your back so they can pretend never to have said it at all."

Did you watch the Friends clip? Do you ever watch Modern Family? People make fun of each other for something they might be sensitive about all the time.

Some adults hear kids do this and call it all mean. All that does is make the kids do it in secret. Sort of the same way girls group up and whisper in secret, a bunch of things that are snarky but a bunch that are not.

Kids who have adults figuring out whether their trash talk was out of jealousy or superiority or fun have a much better chance of teaching their kids to be good people (and good roasters).

You think people should behave like characters on sitcoms? You think that's the standard for human interaction?

Those aren't real people. Characters on sitcoms make fun of each other constantly because the people who write sitcoms are under pressure to ensure there are at least 3 jokes on every page of script. Literally, they count them, and they get notes from networks about upping just keep rates.

Jokes at another person's expense are mean, but easy. So if you need to produce humor, it's an easy target. Easier than social commentary. And much easier for performers than broad comedy or physical humor. It's also cheap.

So yes, people in sitcoms relentlessly "roast" each other and never get too mad about it (unless their anger might be funny). Because they aren't real people and because their whole job is to produce a laugh.

IRL, people have feelings, and that's mean.

Yes in my real life my friends, family and I are accepting of our flaws and make fun of ourselves and each other. It is not mean when it makes us feel good, understood and accepted.

It is mean when it hurts someone’s feelings. This is also how inner circles develop. You can’t be friends with someone who calls this blanket mean, especially when both recipient and deliverer partake joyfully.

Kids in 2nd grade don’t have inner circles. They don’t know what will make one kid feel great will make another cry sometimes until it happens. When they make mistakes, they should absolutely apologize. They sometimes don’t know how sensitive they are until they themselves have hurt feelings and cry.

You are assuming what you do is universal and accepted, and it's not.

Also, even in functional in-groups where teasing us ok, the precursor is love and full acceptance of one another. And enough knowledge to know what is off limits and not, plus how to repair when a line is crossed. It takes deep love and trust.

How do you build that live and trust? Kindness and empathy. So if you want your kids to come say understand how to tease a very close friend it family member correctly, you encourage kindness and empathy and discourage meanness. Their relationships will naturally become more sophisticated later, but the foundation isn't "roasting ." You start with kindness.

This is very well-put and that defensive mom can’t get it. The base is kindness and deep trust.

[Anonymous]

You can try to explain the weather to the people who you see fruitlessly arguing with it, but some of those people are going to think you’re holding back the sunshine.

I was a lackluster athlete whose kid was hurt by roasts. By I’m not going to switch my kids’ schools over it, because roasts are there too. I’m not going to switch countries, because I’ve lived all over the world, and it’s global.

Go ahead and blame, judge and be angry. It’s still going to rain.

Personally I think it’s better to understand the weather, predict it and grab an umbrella, but I guess that’s just me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can try to explain the weather to the people who you see fruitlessly arguing with it, but some of those people are going to think you’re holding back the sunshine.

I was a lackluster athlete whose kid was hurt by roasts. By I’m not going to switch my kids’ schools over it, because roasts are there too. I’m not going to switch countries, because I’ve lived all over the world, and it’s global.

Go ahead and blame, judge and be angry. It’s still going to rain.

Personally I think it’s better to understand the weather, predict it and grab an umbrella, but I guess that’s just me.

Back up, we got a metaphor maker up in here!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can try to explain the weather to the people who you see fruitlessly arguing with it, but some of those people are going to think you’re holding back the sunshine.

I was a lackluster athlete whose kid was hurt by roasts. By I’m not going to switch my kids’ schools over it, because roasts are there too. I’m not going to switch countries, because I’ve lived all over the world, and it’s global.

Go ahead and blame, judge and be angry. It’s still going to rain.

Personally I think it’s better to understand the weather, predict it and grab an umbrella, but I guess that’s just me.

Back up, we got a metaphor maker up in here!

Oooo that was a good roast.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a parent of a 4th grade DD who had been warned about how difficult tween and teen girls were and how mean they are to each other. I was always told that boys were straightforward and easy.

It’s been shocking to see girls rally together and be supportive and kind, and to see the cruel, aggressive and constant work boys exert to establish and maintain a pecking order and their place in it. (I just wrote basically the same thing on the special needs thread and it isn’t worth rephrasing) Girl moms talked for years about relational aggression, but now I think it’s who who are really pushing the boundaries of what that can look like.

We have multiple boys at our school leaving because they’ve basically been driven out by this alpha boy nonsense.

I agree and have seen this too. I have 2 girls and my anecdotal observation is that parents seem very quick to discipline their girls vs boys. I don’t get it. Girls (not all but most in my observation) are quick to be kept in check but parents give boys so much leeway for things like screaming, inappropriate or mean language, being physically rough etc. It’s so dispiriting. There seems to be so much coddling of boys vs trying to make girls tough enough to handle those boys.

Look, some of this is just parents picking their battles. I have two boys. One is naturally more compliant, and the other a bit crazy. Some people might observe me and say that I am more likely to check my compliant boy but that is only because he is already mostly in check and it takes no effort to check him on the rare occasion that he steps out of line and then he immediately corrects himself. The other boy, I really have to pick my battles. I don't have the energy to corect everything he does. So my expectations are not the same for both kids. Since most girls are more compliant than the typical boy, I can see why you would think girl parents correct more, but that is because it is easy to do so.

I don't see the boys will be boys mentality to be not caring about what boys do and allowing whatever behavior. It is more about recognizing that boys will act differently than girls and to shape them with that in mind.

This may be true, but I think we should think about the message this sends to girls and boys. Girls are expected to be perfect and any minor deviations are corrected. Boys have lots of leeway and only checked in when absolutely necessary. Girls and boys see this and it shapes their expectations about behavior for boys and girls.

Really good point.