Practical differences between AP and IB in FCPS?

[Anonymous]

There’s no tangible benefit to getting the IB diploma, literally nobody cares except for bragging rights.

The tangible benefit of IB is taking the classes, doing the work, and showing colleges that you got good grades in a rigorous curriculum.

There’s no benefit in taking the IB specific classes like Theory of Knowledge, and CAS. Just take a real class and do real extracurriculars instead.

ToK is no more or less useless than any English or social studies class. DS found it engaging enough to talk to me about the various issues they discussed and assignments they completed.

SL classes are not advanced coursework, they are just like regular or honors classes.

The two year HL classes move too slow compared to the one year APs, and go in less depth.

No.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Each program has its strengths. The IB parents in Fairfax tend to try and over-compensate for the fact that their schools are lower-performing overall by exaggerating the benefits of IB. That’s why we invariably hear the entirely false assertions that AP is only about rote memorization, whereas IB teaches critical thinking skills and gives kids an advantage in college admissions. It’s laughable but also somewhat understandable when you put it in context.

This is so true.

People want to justify the choices they made for their kids, but the mental gymnastics is getting out of control. The critical thinking problem solving bit is the most ridiculous of all. Have they measured the critical thinking of the students to know? And how?

Agree that it doesn’t confer an advantage to college admissions compared to AP, although it’s stated in every IB thread as a fact. If anything, it will sometimes hurt the high performing kids, because the program is too rigid and lacks flexibility.

There’s a lot of buyer’s regret when people realize they are zoned for an IB school and that 80-98% of the kids at those schools don’t get IB diplomas. Meanwhile the AP schools offer a more flexible curriculum without all the rhetoric about creating “global citizens,” “life-long learners,” etc.

If your kid is too dumb and lazy to get an IB diploma then he will also be too dumb and lazy to succeed at an AP school. The kids at IB schools who do not do IB would not take advantage of that "flexible AP curriculum" if the school offered it.

IB is not a good fit for the top students that want to take more coursework in one area, and it’s not good for the students that should only take a few advanced courses in high school. Those students would benefit more from the a la carte AP curriculum which is better aligned with community colleges and universities. IB is one size fits all and is failing at the upper and lower tiers.

I am embarrassed for you that you don't understand that kids at IB schools who you think "should" only take a few advanced courses in high school already have the option to do that. IB is not "all or nothing". You can take IB classes "a la carte" just like AP classes. You are not obligated to pursue the diploma program.

"the a la carte AP curriculum which is better aligned with community colleges and universities" - what AP kid is going to a community college, what are you blathering about here?

"IB is one size fits all and is failing at the upper and lower tiers" - IB is not one size fits all, is not failing at the upper tiers (the kids capable of advanced work get IB diplomas and are well prepared for college), and is not failing at the lower tiers (the kids who are not capable of completing the diploma program can still take some of the courses and benefit from them).

Why do people talk when they are so profoundly ignorant?

IBD absolutely limits the very top students that want to take more coursework in a certain area because of course availability and limits on HL courses one can take. A student in the IBDP can’t drop foreign language to take Multivariable instead.

[Shrug, there are limits on course availability and the courses you can take in AP schools as well.]

You must live in a bubble if you don’t think there are students going to community college after taking APs. Some because they don’t do well, some for financial reasons, it’s ridiculous to say they don’t exist, sorry but you’re the ignorant here. IB SL classes won’t get you any credit at our local CC, that should tell you a lot about how rigorous they are. Lower tier students would be much better off taking dual enrollment than IB, because the goal is removing the barrier of transitioning them into college.

[The number of kids supposedly going to community college after taking AP classes is so trivial that you bringing them up as a strike against IB is totally dishonest. And yes you can get credit for many SL courses at NVCC, stop lying.]

IB is akin to trinket label for parents that want to believe their kid is special. It isn’t, but let them feel good about themselves. But when you’re inflicting IB over an entire school, then you just don’t have the students best interest in mind. When people have a choice it’s clear which way they go.

[People do have a choice. They can move to an AP zoned school. They don't because the difference between the two is not enough to matter. And they don't "inflict" IB on an entire school, IB is completely optional just like taking AP classes is.]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Each program has its strengths. The IB parents in Fairfax tend to try and over-compensate for the fact that their schools are lower-performing overall by exaggerating the benefits of IB. That’s why we invariably hear the entirely false assertions that AP is only about rote memorization, whereas IB teaches critical thinking skills and gives kids an advantage in college admissions. It’s laughable but also somewhat understandable when you put it in context.

This is so true.

People want to justify the choices they made for their kids, but the mental gymnastics is getting out of control. The critical thinking problem solving bit is the most ridiculous of all. Have they measured the critical thinking of the students to know? And how?

Agree that it doesn’t confer an advantage to college admissions compared to AP, although it’s stated in every IB thread as a fact. If anything, it will sometimes hurt the high performing kids, because the program is too rigid and lacks flexibility.

There’s a lot of buyer’s regret when people realize they are zoned for an IB school and that 80-98% of the kids at those schools don’t get IB diplomas. Meanwhile the AP schools offer a more flexible curriculum without all the rhetoric about creating “global citizens,” “life-long learners,” etc.

If your kid is too dumb and lazy to get an IB diploma then he will also be too dumb and lazy to succeed at an AP school. The kids at IB schools who do not do IB would not take advantage of that "flexible AP curriculum" if the school offered it.

IB is not a good fit for the top students that want to take more coursework in one area, and it’s not good for the students that should only take a few advanced courses in high school. Those students would benefit more from the a la carte AP curriculum which is better aligned with community colleges and universities. IB is one size fits all and is failing at the upper and lower tiers.

I am embarrassed for you that you don't understand that kids at IB schools who you think "should" only take a few advanced courses in high school already have the option to do that. IB is not "all or nothing". You can take IB classes "a la carte" just like AP classes. You are not obligated to pursue the diploma program.

"the a la carte AP curriculum which is better aligned with community colleges and universities" - what AP kid is going to a community college, what are you blathering about here?

"IB is one size fits all and is failing at the upper and lower tiers" - IB is not one size fits all, is not failing at the upper tiers (the kids capable of advanced work get IB diplomas and are well prepared for college), and is not failing at the lower tiers (the kids who are not capable of completing the diploma program can still take some of the courses and benefit from them).

Why do people talk when they are so profoundly ignorant?

DP. You're the ignorant one. The IBO program was designed with the IB diploma specifically in mind as the intended goal. Unfortunately, it failed at achieving that goal at most schools where it was implemented, so there was a pivot to emphasizing that kids could just take individual IB courses.

[You remain both ignorant and dishonest. The goal of IB was never "every kid at an IB school will get an IB diploma". The IB program is not failing because it is not trying to do the thing you claim it is trying to do.]

The IB diploma rate in FCPS is a joke. They should scrap the entire program or create one IB school where every kid is committed to obtaining an IB diploma. Otherwise it's just a wasteful and inefficient program that gets propped up because a few noisy parents think it made their own kids special snowflakes (even when they are ultimately no better situated in terms of college prep or admissions than AP students).

[Again you are reprehensibly dishonest. The "IB diploma rate" depends on the denominator you use. If it's "every senior in the school" then the rate is low. But not every kid in the school is in the IB program or trying to get an IB diploma. If the denominator is "IB candidates" (ie how many kids actually in the IB program get the IB diploma) then the diploma rate is very good.

There is no waste and inefficiency in offering the IB program. If the schools that teach IB courses did not do that, then they'd have to offer AP courses instead. You'd have the same number of teachers employed at the school, and maybe even more.

Having an entire school devoted to IB would be even more wasteful and inefficient.]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many of the features of the IB program are not very useful.

There’s no tangible benefit to getting the IB diploma, literally nobody cares except for bragging rights.

There’s no benefit in taking the IB specific classes like Theory of Knowledge, and CAS. Just take a real class and do real extracurriculars instead.

SL classes are not advanced coursework, they are just like regular or honors classes.

The two year HL classes move too slow compared to the one year APs, and go in less depth.

When it comes to advantages we only hear about critical thinking problem solving global citizen, because there’s nothing better they can come up with.

There is an awful lot of marketing fluff associated with IB. It comes up a lot on this forum, maybe because the IBO’s US headquarters, with a staff of over 125 people, are based in DC (and had previously been in Bethesda).

IB was trendy in the late 90s and early 00s, but FCPS stopped adding more IB programs at the HS level about 20 years ago. Unfortunately they never got around to unwinding most of them (Woodson being the exception, as parents there successfully fought back to have IB eliminated and AP reinstated).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Each program has its strengths. The IB parents in Fairfax tend to try and over-compensate for the fact that their schools are lower-performing overall by exaggerating the benefits of IB. That’s why we invariably hear the entirely false assertions that AP is only about rote memorization, whereas IB teaches critical thinking skills and gives kids an advantage in college admissions. It’s laughable but also somewhat understandable when you put it in context.

This is so true.

People want to justify the choices they made for their kids, but the mental gymnastics is getting out of control. The critical thinking problem solving bit is the most ridiculous of all. Have they measured the critical thinking of the students to know? And how?

Agree that it doesn’t confer an advantage to college admissions compared to AP, although it’s stated in every IB thread as a fact. If anything, it will sometimes hurt the high performing kids, because the program is too rigid and lacks flexibility.

There’s a lot of buyer’s regret when people realize they are zoned for an IB school and that 80-98% of the kids at those schools don’t get IB diplomas. Meanwhile the AP schools offer a more flexible curriculum without all the rhetoric about creating “global citizens,” “life-long learners,” etc.

If your kid is too dumb and lazy to get an IB diploma then he will also be too dumb and lazy to succeed at an AP school. The kids at IB schools who do not do IB would not take advantage of that "flexible AP curriculum" if the school offered it.

IB is not a good fit for the top students that want to take more coursework in one area, and it’s not good for the students that should only take a few advanced courses in high school. Those students would benefit more from the a la carte AP curriculum which is better aligned with community colleges and universities. IB is one size fits all and is failing at the upper and lower tiers.

I am embarrassed for you that you don't understand that kids at IB schools who you think "should" only take a few advanced courses in high school already have the option to do that. IB is not "all or nothing". You can take IB classes "a la carte" just like AP classes. You are not obligated to pursue the diploma program.

"the a la carte AP curriculum which is better aligned with community colleges and universities" - what AP kid is going to a community college, what are you blathering about here?

"IB is one size fits all and is failing at the upper and lower tiers" - IB is not one size fits all, is not failing at the upper tiers (the kids capable of advanced work get IB diplomas and are well prepared for college), and is not failing at the lower tiers (the kids who are not capable of completing the diploma program can still take some of the courses and benefit from them).

Why do people talk when they are so profoundly ignorant?

IBD absolutely limits the very top students that want to take more coursework in a certain area because of course availability and limits on HL courses one can take. A student in the IBDP can’t drop foreign language to take Multivariable instead.

[Shrug, there are limits on course availability and the courses you can take in AP schools as well.]

You must live in a bubble if you don’t think there are students going to community college after taking APs. Some because they don’t do well, some for financial reasons, it’s ridiculous to say they don’t exist, sorry but you’re the ignorant here. IB SL classes won’t get you any credit at our local CC, that should tell you a lot about how rigorous they are. Lower tier students would be much better off taking dual enrollment than IB, because the goal is removing the barrier of transitioning them into college.

[The number of kids supposedly going to community college after taking AP classes is so trivial that you bringing them up as a strike against IB is totally dishonest. And yes you can get credit for many SL courses at NVCC, stop lying.]

IB is akin to trinket label for parents that want to believe their kid is special. It isn’t, but let them feel good about themselves. But when you’re inflicting IB over an entire school, then you just don’t have the students best interest in mind. When people have a choice it’s clear which way they go.

[People do have a choice. They can move to an AP zoned school. They don't because the difference between the two is not enough to matter. And they don't "inflict" IB on an entire school, IB is completely optional just like taking AP classes is.]

IBDP is more restrictive than course availability, you have to take their prescribed recipe for the diploma, no more than 3 HL even if you want to or can handle it. You have to take their silly ToK and CAS even if you’d rather take a genuine academic class.

The credit you get at NVCC is the equivalent of precalculus or the light version of Calculus Applications that’s not good as a prerequisite for anything or any kind of AA degree. You’d still have to take the higher level class regardless.

It’s quite jarring to tell the parents supporting the local schools with their tax money to move out if they don’t like the public school option they have available. It’s a good example of what it means to have an unpopular program inflicted upon a school. Entitled administrators that know better what you need.

[Anonymous]

IB is far superior in every regard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IB is far superior in every regard.

Said no one ever who expected to be taken seriously.

[Anonymous]

Why does FCPS limit IB offering to just these schools?

https://www.fcps.edu/academics/high-school-grades-9-12/advanced-academics/international-baccalaureate-ib/schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why does FCPS limit IB offering to just these schools?

https://www.fcps.edu/academics/high-school-grades-9-12/advanced-academics/international-baccalaureate-ib/schools

That’s where they could get away with it.

[Anonymous]

Your child has a much better shot at an IV league school through IB.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your child has a much better shot at an IV league school through IB.

LOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your child has a much better shot at an IV league school through IB.

IB kids are better at doing IV shots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:There have been years where some of the top AP schools like Langley, McLean, and Oakton each had as many National Merit Semifinalists as all eight of the IB schools in the county combined.

Selection effect, nitwit. Correlation not causation.

If IB were all that, the higher SES communities would by now have demanded it for their schools. They do not want it, whether it’s Langley in FCPS or Whitman in MCPS. That is far more compelling evidence than the typical, biased pro-IB anecdotes invariably offered on these threads.

You suggest the high-SES communities must know best. They aren't exactly experts in the field of education. The average parent simply knows that within FCPS, most AP schools have good GreatSchools ratings and most IB schools have poor GreatSchools ratings.
Few outsider parents know any real details about IB. It's always the same, incorrect, critiques repeated ad infinitum: perceived inflexibility, too much reading and writing (Writing for math and science? Ridiculous!), and less college credit (no credit for SL, credit for HL).

Different poster, I think the PP has a point about the high SES demographics choosing AP over IB.

In my experience the IB cheerleaders are far less sophisticated about education and are easily swayed by the smoke and mirrors of the marketing materials, like “critical thinking”, “problem solving”, “global citizen”, IB will get your kid in an ivy etc.

People that actually have developed critical thinking, will look in the course catalogue and discover with dismay that the low tier IB schools have a slim course offering consisting of SL Math and HL Biology.

I don't know which "low tier" schools you're sneering at but
IB physics 1 is at 8 schools
IB physics 2 is at 7 schools
IB chem HL 2 is at 5 schools
IB bio HL 2 is at 8 schools
IB Math Anl&App HL 2 is at 7 schools
IB Math App & Int HL 2 is at 5 schools

As there are only 8 IB schools, it is clear that high level math and science are widely available and you should shut up.[/b]

At least 12% of kids don't have access to the highest level IB math class. Are a similar percentage of kids at AP school unable to take Calc BC?

[Anonymous]

If you are looking for the best education/college prep:

Full slate of AP courses or IB diploma > cherry-picked AP courses > cherry picked IB courses.

The whole of IB is greater than the sum of its parts. The benefit of IB is the holistic approach, and the peer group provided by school-within-a school environment. It’s really not unlike the AAP Centers that everyone strives to get their kids into.

If you are looking for college credits:

DE > AP > IB

I think most college-bound kids in FCPS should be targeting DE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are looking for the best education/college prep:

Full slate of AP courses or IB diploma > cherry-picked AP courses > cherry picked IB courses.

The whole of IB is greater than the sum of its parts. The benefit of IB is the holistic approach, and the peer group provided by school-within-a school environment. It’s really not unlike the AAP Centers that everyone strives to get their kids into.

If you are looking for college credits:

DE > AP > IB

I think most college-bound kids in FCPS should be targeting DE.

What’s a full slate of AP courses?