Practical differences between AP and IB in FCPS?

[Anonymous]

Education is changing, the days of classical education are going away, making room for the specialized learning while loading on as many advanced classes as early as possible.

IB is a relic of the times when a “well rounded education”, knowing a bit of everything was the goal. Today there’s more focus on specialization, it’s not enough to be well rounded, you need to prove you’ll be able to handle the rigors of your intended major.

Comparatively IB has puts more focus on humanities, which have an accelerating and declining enrollment, literally entire departments are shutting down. Math and science classes in IB are also not very good compared to APs, so that’s another strike against IB.

That’s why imo the AP is preferred, it’s more flexible and it’s easier to adapt to the new demands of college admissions.

[Anonymous]

AP is not necessarily rigorous. It used to be you had to be approved for AP classes. Now anyone can sign up. Sure it’s better than Gen Ed but there is a reason schools are going back to requiring standardized test scores. The consensus of college professors are that many kids with loads of AP/IB/DE are unprepared. I think the whole AP vs IB debate is kind of laughable. All it tells you is that insecure parents feel the need to make themselves feel better by dissing the “other.” Again-go outside of DCUM to get unbiased feedback.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The single biggest problem kids have adjusting to college is the amount of writing (and I'd say the same for the workforce as well), IB is far superior for building up writing skills, which is why the AP proponents can only bring up math and science (which even there the IB kids have plenty of rigor if not as many options).

People bring up math and sciences because they are required in majors leading to successful careers.

You can use earnings as a proxy:
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/03/24/best-and-worst-paying-college-majors-5-years-after-graduation.html

Top 10 earnings by major:
1. Computer engineering $80,000
2. Chemical engineering $79,000
3. Computer science $78,000
4. Aerospace engineering $74,000
5. Electrical engineering $72,000
6. Industrial engineering $71,000
7. Mechanical engineering $70,000
8. General engineering $68,000
9. Miscellaneous engineering $68,000
10. Finance $66,000

Virtually all require a lot of math plus some science. Really doubtful writing is the biggest issue those majors and careers are facing, it’s the ability to do well in stem classes. In the workplace companies hire technical writers all the time to support their staff deficient in that area.

The humanities kids in IB still have to deal with the same issues as the stem kids, you can’t take more classes in your area of interest, eg one English and one history, and have to waste your time with the ToK, CAS, EE fluff, that admittedly has more of a humanities flavor.

Yeah, pretty much zero science needed for those computer careers at the top of the list, and the computer industry people who make the most money are the ones who can communicate.

Lol, are you for real? It’s literally in the name, when people say they want to major in CS what do you think it stands for? It’s computer science!” Call it however you want, computer science (most common) or computer engineering, it’s the same skill set of quantitative reasoning that’s shared across math and sciences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP is not necessarily rigorous. It used to be you had to be approved for AP classes. Now anyone can sign up. Sure it’s better than Gen Ed but there is a reason schools are going back to requiring standardized test scores. The consensus of college professors are that many kids with loads of AP/IB/DE are unprepared. I think the whole AP vs IB debate is kind of laughable. All it tells you is that insecure parents feel the need to make themselves feel better by dissing the “other.” Again-go outside of DCUM to get unbiased feedback.

Amazing that you surveyed the college professors to know what their consensus is! The AP exam certifies how well the material is mastered, I don’t thing the rigor of the evaluation went down.

The debate here is about having your kid shoved in the crappy IB program because the central office arbitrarily decided that’s what they’ll teach at your high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP is not necessarily rigorous. It used to be you had to be approved for AP classes. Now anyone can sign up. Sure it’s better than Gen Ed but there is a reason schools are going back to requiring standardized test scores. The consensus of college professors are that many kids with loads of AP/IB/DE are unprepared. I think the whole AP vs IB debate is kind of laughable. All it tells you is that insecure parents feel the need to make themselves feel better by dissing the “other.” Again-go outside of DCUM to get unbiased feedback.

Amazing that you surveyed the college professors to know what their consensus is! The AP exam certifies how well the material is mastered, I don’t thing the rigor of the evaluation went down.

The debate here is about having your kid shoved in the crappy IB program because the central office arbitrarily decided that’s what they’ll teach at your high school.

Jesus lady who pee peed in your Cheerios? And no I didn’t conduct formal research. But go look online in different forums. There have been articles written about it by professors saying many kids are not well prepared.

[Anonymous]

FYI- You do not need to take an AP class to take the AP exam. In fact, some IB students take the AP exams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP is not necessarily rigorous. It used to be you had to be approved for AP classes. Now anyone can sign up. Sure it’s better than Gen Ed but there is a reason schools are going back to requiring standardized test scores. The consensus of college professors are that many kids with loads of AP/IB/DE are unprepared. I think the whole AP vs IB debate is kind of laughable. All it tells you is that insecure parents feel the need to make themselves feel better by dissing the “other.” Again-go outside of DCUM to get unbiased feedback.

Do you really think that kids just randomly decide to take Physics C or Calc BC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP is not necessarily rigorous. It used to be you had to be approved for AP classes. Now anyone can sign up. Sure it’s better than Gen Ed but there is a reason schools are going back to requiring standardized test scores. The consensus of college professors are that many kids with loads of AP/IB/DE are unprepared. I think the whole AP vs IB debate is kind of laughable. All it tells you is that insecure parents feel the need to make themselves feel better by dissing the “other.” Again-go outside of DCUM to get unbiased feedback.

Do you really think that kids just randomly decide to take Physics C or Calc BC?

You are correct, the kids that shouldn't be in AP rarely want to sign up, but plenty of them have pushy parents that convince or force them to sign up anyway.

Actually the issue of unprepared kids presents itself at both low and high-SES schools. At low-SES schools educators encourage URM kids to try AP out as a learning experience. At high-SES schools parents push their low-achieving kids into AP because parents refuse to accept their kids aren't as high-achieving as they themselves were. PP is correct that AP/IB is no longer the line of separation it once was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP is not necessarily rigorous. It used to be you had to be approved for AP classes. Now anyone can sign up. Sure it’s better than Gen Ed but there is a reason schools are going back to requiring standardized test scores. The consensus of college professors are that many kids with loads of AP/IB/DE are unprepared. I think the whole AP vs IB debate is kind of laughable. All it tells you is that insecure parents feel the need to make themselves feel better by dissing the “other.” Again-go outside of DCUM to get unbiased feedback.

Do you really think that kids just randomly decide to take Physics C or Calc BC?

You are correct, the kids that shouldn't be in AP rarely want to sign up, but plenty of them have pushy parents that convince or force them to sign up anyway.

Actually the issue of unprepared kids presents itself at both low and high-SES schools. At low-SES schools educators encourage URM kids to try AP out as a learning experience. At high-SES schools parents push their low-achieving kids into AP because parents refuse to accept their kids aren't as high-achieving as they themselves were. PP is correct that AP/IB is no longer the line of separation it once was.

Those kids tend to take the easy APs, especially the ones pushed by the school. By the time you get to the harder science APs, the students are self selected

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There have been years where some of the top AP schools like Langley, McLean, and Oakton each had as many National Merit Semifinalists as all eight of the IB schools in the county combined.

Selection effect, nitwit. Correlation not causation.

If IB were all that, the higher SES communities would by now have demanded it for their schools. They do not want it, whether it’s Langley in FCPS or Whitman in MCPS. That is far more compelling evidence than the typical, biased pro-IB anecdotes invariably offered on these threads.

You suggest the high-SES communities must know best. They aren't exactly experts in the field of education. The average parent simply knows that within FCPS, most AP schools have good GreatSchools ratings and most IB schools have poor GreatSchools ratings.
Few outsider parents know any real details about IB. It's always the same, incorrect, critiques repeated ad infinitum: perceived inflexibility, too much reading and writing (Writing for math and science? Ridiculous!), and less college credit (no credit for SL, credit for HL).

A stronger peer group at an AP school will always trump a weaker peer group at an IB school for educated parents seeking to maximize their kids’ academic potential.

My kid is at an IB school and has a strong peer group. His friends who graduated this year are going to great colleges.

Are there numbers available for the number of IB graduates per school? Seems like most of the comments are coming from one school district with lots of kids from high income families getting the IB diploma.

My high performing DC is doing the full diploma at one of the worst regarded schools in the county. Sure, the cohort is small, but it's truly a group of gifted and hardworking kids who will graduate much more prepared for college than many AP kids. And, coming from our school of our "stature" will give them a leg up in the admissions process

How small a cohort?

If you took the top 10-20 students at any AP school, you could easily say they were far more prepared for college than most of the IB students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is geared towards earning an “IB diploma,” whereas AP is more a la carte.

To get an IB diploma you have to take courses in different subject areas, akin to college distribution requirements. You take the AP courses that interest you.

Because of the relatively small percentage of students at IB schools in FCPS who pursue an IB diploma, they now emphasize that you can also take IB courses a la carte. That is true, but it’s not the original purpose of IB.

IB courses tend to be more writing-heavy but also to cover less material. AP courses tend to be more like introductory college “survey” courses. They cover a wider range of material, and only some AP courses are writing-intensive.

AP courses are year-long courses or in a few cases semester courses, whereas IB courses are one or in some cases two years long.

FCPS primarily installed IB courses at lower performing high schools to try to create a “school-within-a-school” environment. Most of the higher performing schools in FCPS are AP schools where most kids take multiple AP courses.

Because AP courses are a la carte and there are no distribution requirements, it is easier to take more STEM courses at AP schools.

IB courses are designed by an organization (the IBO) based in Geneva, whereas AP courses are designed by the College Board, which is based in the United States. The IBO touts turning IB students into “global citizens,” whereas the College Board primarily touts that AP courses are good college prep.

Historically, American universities were more likely to give college credits for AP courses than for IB courses, but now most schools recognize AP and IB test scores equally (or in some cases not at all).

Good summary.

IB HL courses are comparable with AP, although in science and math they are not as good and they take two years compared to one year for AP. SL are just like honors high school classes so they are inferior to AP.

If IB is not supplemented with AP the schedule will be weaker having only 3 HL in two years. It’s very common for AP students to have 6+ AP in the last two years of high school.

I find it odd when people say AP teches to the test given the insane amount of testing and assessments in the IB program. There’s less testing and more freedom for the teacher to structure the class as they see fit in AP.

Much of the IB testing was essays, so harder to teach to the test, also oral exams for languages which I don't think happens for AP.

My AP kid will end up taking multivariable and physics BC as a senior. Nothing at our local IB school is comparable- most years they can't even get together enough students to offer HL math

Don't forget AP chem

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the PP with an IB kid at a poorly regarded school. Not only is she getting a good education, her school's demographics do, in fact, give her an advantage in college admissions, beyond IB. For example, there were significantly more graduating seniors accepted to UVA this year at her school than at higher SES schools, where the fight for just a few spots is super competitive.

I'm not saying IB is all that, or a good fit for everyone, particularly those who struggle with writing. But there are certain types of students who can benefit tremendously from the program. And the fact that IB is typically offered in lower SES schools means that those who thrive in the program have an easier route to top colleges and universities, where they arrive prepared.

How do you know how many kids at neighboring schools were admitted to UVA?

The grad Instagram page?

The kids can only attend one school, so when they post their result tgey do not also list all the acceptances they turned down.

I know that each year at our high school, there are many kids accepted to UVA who choose other schools. The social media posts are not a good accounting of acceptances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are looking for the best education/college prep:

Full slate of AP courses or IB diploma > cherry-picked AP courses > cherry picked IB courses.

The whole of IB is greater than the sum of its parts. The benefit of IB is the holistic approach, and the peer group provided by school-within-a school environment. It’s really not unlike the AAP Centers that everyone strives to get their kids into.

If you are looking for college credits:

DE > AP > IB

I think most college-bound kids in FCPS should be targeting DE.

Dual enrollment is only helpful if your kid is going to college in Virginia

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You all are still bickering and I’m not sure OP
has even come back.

🤣 OP here. I've been reading but this thread is...a lot

I'm not sure what else to ask other than: why do people keep mentioning the inability to do IB and take extra curriculars. I'm big on the idea that kids should have well rounded school experiences. Is the extra coursework in IB problems so great that kids can't have outside activities. That doesn't sound like a great trade off but I could be misunderstanding.

Most AP parents know very little about IB and resort to criticizing it. I haven't read every single comment here but from quickly skimming the thread I didn't see any mention of the IB Program's built-in CAS (Creativity, Activity, Service) project.

The CAS project is a requirement for the IB Diploma existing precisely for kids to explore extracurriculars of interest at a broad level. They create a documented portfolio of experiences during junior and senior years as they engage in activities across three categories. As you can see CAS is quite flexible to meet the needs of any type of kid - Creative/artistic, Activity/athletic, or Service/community involvement. Culminating in a long-term, open-ended project of their choosing.

Of course, as with anything, kids get out of it what they put in. Some anti-IB folks will call this kind of thing fluff and a waste of time. I've seen some excellent projects and some low-effort ones. But if taken seriously, it's a great opportunity for kids to accomplish something meaningful to them and goes beyond grades and academics.

There is nothing like turning the joy and freedom of an extracurricular activity, and turning it into a giant, regimented, graded writing assignment.

On what planet is that considered a great idea?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FYI- You do not need to take an AP class to take the AP exam. In fact, some IB students take the AP exams.

That’s a good thing. The converse is not true, and it doesn’t make IB any more attractive.