Do narcissists ever know they are narcissists? Can they change?

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[Post New]05/02/2017 03:27
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Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

-Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
-Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
-Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
-Requires excessive admiration
-Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
-Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
-Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
-Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
-Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes


Wow I never realized before seeing those symptoms all listed how 100% accurate this is as a description of the President.



Yeah, self-entitled Obama to a "T".

Exactly.
[Post New]05/02/2017 03:38
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Anonymous
Oh great. The red hats have invaded.
[Post New]05/02/2017 07:27
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Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A true narcissist? No. But I don't think adults become narcissists. Maybe he's just acting like a self-centered jerk, which is tough to deal with but changeable. If he were a pathological narc, you'd probably have seen signs of it, ever since he'd officially won you over. They're very charming at first. Then they discard you.


I don't think he became this way. I'm concerned he was this way before and it was buried behind charm, as narcissists are supposed to have a way to do. I did see signs but they were little things that I dismissed in the same way I dismissed the growing conflict after kids. (We had kids pretty early so there wasn't a lot of time to know him independently). His background in early life also matches very closely with some of the scenarios that are common in narcissists.


The other thing is that prior to children, a spouse can focus all of their emotional energy and affection on the narc. The narc is getting what they need - unfiltered adoration. After children, especially in the early years, much of the 'love' is aimed at the children. This can be infuriating for the narc spouse, and so I don't think it's uncommon for it to become unmasked then.
[Post New]05/02/2017 07:37
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Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:If he were truly a narcissist, he would not be going to counseling on his own or with you.


This is an interesting thought. I do think NPD is an incredibly internally painful disorder. I dated a woman once who I finally realized was NPD (once you can step back and see clearly for just one second, it becomes very clear. And yes, I'm in psychology FWIW.) She had been to therapy on and off several times, although I don't know if NPD ever came up, so I have no idea if she actually knew she was NPD. In retrospect, our conversations never went the route of talking about our 'deeper' selves - it was always deflected (often with sex...) One thing I know for sure is that NPDs have a hard time tolerating being identified as NPD; it takes away the power differential in the relationship and removes the superficial shine from them.

OP, if your DH is NPD, my condolences. My experience was devaluing and emotionally brutal. In retrospect, I should have seen the 'red flags' from the start, but NPD is profoundly alluring at the outset of a relationship...Live and learn, I guess.
[Post New]05/02/2017 08:34
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Anonymous

After multiple cycles of Idealization-Devaluation-Discard, I finally did some research on NPD and "diagnosed" my coworker EAP. Classic, textbook symptoms. She admitted to having some narcissistic tendencies, but NOT to being a narcissist. "We ALL have those qualities to some degree", she said. From my on-line reading from narc victim support sites, while their behavior is extremely predictable, it's not fixable.
[Post New]05/02/2017 10:52
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

-Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
-Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
-Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
-Requires excessive admiration
-Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
-Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
-Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
-Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
-Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes


Wow I never realized before seeing those symptoms all listed how 100% accurate this is as a description of the President.



Yeah, self-entitled Obama to a "T".

Exactly.


Agree that Obama is a narcissist. Trump is a simpleton.
[Post New]05/02/2017 11:35
quote
Anonymous
It is hard to tell based on your first post. You said that your DH is not emotionally there for you? Very few men are, this is something women struggle with, bcs many, many men don't have that need or understand it. It sounds to them like you are always unhappy and they should do something about it. You said he doesn't treat you lovingly, how exactly does he treat you? Is he petulant and ignoring you, or just plain abusive, verbally, physically? What you told doesn't qualify as a NPD just most men who are clueless. If he is otherwise not abusive, is he depressed? Are you maybe projecting your depression and trying to have him be a perfect husband that will predict your emotional need? That is a battle lost with most men. If he is abusive, well, that is a lot different.
[Post New]05/02/2017 13:41
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:It is hard to tell based on your first post. You said that your DH is not emotionally there for you? Very few men are, this is something women struggle with, bcs many, many men don't have that need or understand it. It sounds to them like you are always unhappy and they should do something about it. You said he doesn't treat you lovingly, how exactly does he treat you? Is he petulant and ignoring you, or just plain abusive, verbally, physically? What you told doesn't qualify as a NPD just most men who are clueless. If he is otherwise not abusive, is he depressed? Are you maybe projecting your depression and trying to have him be a perfect husband that will predict your emotional need? That is a battle lost with most men. If he is abusive, well, that is a lot different.


Thanks for the responses. As I mentioned already, my point on here is not to bash him or go into the details of why I think he is a narcissist or have anyone here diagnosis him as such based on my description. I've read enough about NPD to feel very confident he falls somewhere along that spectrum and had a professional therapist tell me they think he is as well, as I mentioned, based on actions and behaviors I've described, without my ever using the word narcissist to the counselor.

I do feel some of his treatment of me falls into emotional abuse, whether intentional or not, and I did tell him that, which he of course scoffed at. Just a few days later he agreed to counseling after two years of prodding so I'm not sure if he looked up something and it clicked...or who knows, maybe he found a counselor to describe our situation and hope that someone would validate his behavior.

Anyway, really just looking for experiences of people who have been through something similar and what their outcomes were.
[Post New]05/02/2017 13:44
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Anonymous
He needs more sex.
[Post New]05/02/2017 14:31
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
I do feel some of his treatment of me falls into emotional abuse[i], whether intentional or not, and I did tell him that, which he of course scoffed at. Just a few days later he agreed to counseling after two years of prodding so I'm not sure if he looked up something and it clicked...or who knows, maybe he found a counselor to describe our situation and hope that someone would validate his behavior.


Refocus this on the impact on YOU. I.e., I feel like X when you do why, let's discuss this. And leave off the generalizing and characterizations of his behavior (you're a narcissist, you're emotionaly abusive).

That's the only way you're going to mutually come to grips with this.
[Post New]05/02/2017 14:52
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Anonymous
OP, I could've written this post. My DH is very similar to how you've described yours. I don't believe my DH has NPD. However, his mother does, and his brother also became a full-blown classic narcissist. Growing up in a narcissistic family impacts a person in very specific ways. It made my DH very guarded with his emotions, even with me, because his feelings were (and are) routinely dismissed by his family. If he expressed any feelings or opinions that were contrary to what his mother wanted, or which called her out for her own behavior, she made him pay for it. She is not truly interested in him as a person; she only cares that her family projects an image that flatters her and reinforces her high opinion of herself as a mother and person. Same goes for his brother. My DH also had no idea how to manage conflict because there IS no managing conflict in a narcissistic family. My DH can often come across as cold and uncaring, especially if we are arguing, because being vulnerable goes against every wall of protection he's had to build around himself while growing up. And it's not easy for him to look at his own behavior or his role in a situation because his family never did that. It was all about deflecting and blaming others.

Things have gotten much better over time. We did counseling - as a couple and individually. I think it helped both of us understand what we were bringing into the marriage and how our families of origin play a role in the patterns we are creating within our relationship. For DH, it also helped him understand how to work through conflict and feelings. What continues to work for us is using "I" statements rather than making it about what the other person said or did. That helps my DH understand see how his behavior affects me without feeling like I'm attacking or criticizing him for it.







[Post New]05/02/2017 15:16
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:OP, I could've written this post. My DH is very similar to how you've described yours. I don't believe my DH has NPD. However, his mother does, and his brother also became a full-blown classic narcissist. Growing up in a narcissistic family impacts a person in very specific ways. It made my DH very guarded with his emotions, even with me, because his feelings were (and are) routinely dismissed by his family. If he expressed any feelings or opinions that were contrary to what his mother wanted, or which called her out for her own behavior, she made him pay for it. She is not truly interested in him as a person; she only cares that her family projects an image that flatters her and reinforces her high opinion of herself as a mother and person. Same goes for his brother. My DH also had no idea how to manage conflict because there IS no managing conflict in a narcissistic family. My DH can often come across as cold and uncaring, especially if we are arguing, because being vulnerable goes against every wall of protection he's had to build around himself while growing up. And it's not easy for him to look at his own behavior or his role in a situation because his family never did that. It was all about deflecting and blaming others.

Things have gotten much better over time. We did counseling - as a couple and individually. I think it helped both of us understand what we were bringing into the marriage and how our families of origin play a role in the patterns we are creating within our relationship. For DH, it also helped him understand how to work through conflict and feelings. What continues to work for us is using "I" statements rather than making it about what the other person said or did. That helps my DH understand see how his behavior affects me without feeling like I'm attacking or criticizing him for it.



Thank you so much for this. This sounds very much like my MIL who does very similar things and very much like his conflict avoidance with her even in situations when having a conversation/stating his opinion would normally be warranted. There are certainly similar patterns with his family and I recognize, like you said (even if it isn't NPD), there are often reasons people develop in a certain way.

I'm encouraged by your response and the improvements you've seen. Thanks again.

[Post New]05/02/2017 16:44
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froggymom
Member Offline
Right now the important thing to focus on is the fact that he is going for counseling and that you are working on going as a couple. That is tremendous progress since he refused to go for two years. Let the therapist help you understand what is going on in the relationship. In the meantime be kind to yourself. I give you much credit for trying to work it out and not giving up. I will be praying for you.
[Post New]05/02/2017 20:07
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Anonymous
They can be cured through experiencing significant emotional pain and growing from the experience (an outcome that is far from guaranteed).
[Post New]05/02/2017 20:38
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Anonymous
First of all, you should get a different therapist.

I can't imagine a good therapist, without ever having met with your husband and knowing that she is treating *you*, would make a pretty strong statement like that just by what you've told her.

Are you sure she wasn't suggesting your husband is acting narcissistic? That is different than saying he has NPD.

It also seems like you gloss over the fact that he is now getting counseling and has agreed to go to counseling. I have a difficult time believing someone who is truly a narcissist would respond to your letter by getting counseling. And yet your husband is getting counseling.

It's possible your husband is just a jerk. I feel like the terms narcissist and sociopath are tossed around a lot. Someone can just be a jerk.

If you truly want the counseling to work with your husband, don't go in there having already convinced yourself of a diagnosis. Stick to the facts -- the observable behavior he demonstrates that bothers you. And go from there.

If you really want a shot at improving things, focus on telling your husband the things he does that bother you, upset you, leave you feeling bad. That way, the focus is on the actions, as opposed to just telling him you think he's a narcissist.



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