Message
Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I really wish parents would stop propagating the whole "needs AAP" myth. Who "needs" a slightly advanced, slightly faster-paced program for slightly above-average kids? If your child is reasonably bright, the GBRS is going to make or break the application--and there is nothing a parent can do about that at this point. If anything, teachers clearly place a premium on strong executive functions over natural curiosity and brightness. Basically, they evaluate whether your child will succeed in AAP.
Sure, I'd rather have my smartish middle schooler in AAP than in Gen Ed because he's going to do whatever is asked of him (and, frankly, not much else), so I'd prefer to have the demands be on a higher level. And even though I disagree with the hours of homework per night that some elementary school teachers assign, I'd rather have my elementary-aged kid pick up certain skills than skip them altogether.
It just sounds so self-important and inflated to use this language about the AAP program. I have had several kids go through it and it's not a different unique way of presenting the material that engages and inspires brilliant minds that would otherwise atrophy. It's just a program that moves faster and has higher expectations.
If your child is above average and organized, the program will be a good fit. It your child is brilliant and creative, an out-of-the-box thinker, and (especially) not strong in the executive function areas, I strongly recommend private.
I fully agree with this description of the AAP program, and the discrepancy between how it is described (an innovative way to present the material to engage bright inquisitive minds who may tune out in a traditional classroom) and what it is (a slightly accelerated version of the same material presented in the same drill-like way.) I have one kid that is both bright and creative, and has high executive functioning, and he sleepwalked through the program. He also did AOPS for math and could really appreciate the different ways in which they teach math - explaining “why” as opposed to drilling the “what”. Unfortunately, the AAP screening process, as presented to parents, emphasizes the critical and creative thinking component (even if it is so sadly missing from the program), but as PP correctly pointed out, teachers don’t appreciate critical and creative thinking unless it also comes with high executive function. I now have a kid who is a very creative thinker with some ADHD-related executive function issues, who would jump only as high as the bar is set, and struggling with finding the right environment for him. I will refer him for AAP, but I am not 100% sure that is the best environment for him, and would rather be able to find a private that fits him well, though he loves his school and would find it devastating (at least initially) to leave.
My kids mirror yours (older one with higher executive functioning, younger who will jump only as high as the bar is set and who is incredibly creative), and our experience has not been the same. My oldest has occasionally not had enough drill in AAP to get a concept. They absolutely are attacking the math in a way that expects a higher IQ. Sometimes I have to slow things down and provide extra arithmetic drills at home to get concepts nailed in so my kid can get a concept. Kid still pulls all 4s in AAP and isn't slowing the class down or anything, but there's definitely a more creative aspect to the advanced math.
I have to highly disagree with the bolded above, based on my experience so far this year. As a math teacher, I have not seen a shred of creativity anywhere in the AAP math being taught to my 4th grade child. Everything that has been done so far this year involves doing lots and lots of multiplication, division, and decimal number drills, as well as conversions between fractions and decimals. Literally every question is repetitive and dry; not even 1 puzzle and/or logical thinking type question have I seen being assigned. My child can do this stuff pretty accurately, but he's not lightning fast, so he'll get extremely bored if he has to spend more than 30 minutes on homework questions that are all the same thing. Luckily I work with him on AoPS/Beast Academy type stuff at home, which is literally the exact opposite approach of these school drills.
I frankly don't understand the purpose of the math being "one year ahead" in the AAP program if it is so devoid of critical thinking and problem solving. Someone else said it perfectly upthread, there is no "why does this work", "why is this true", "where does this come from", no making connections, but just doing algorithms over and over. Sure, it moves fast, but it's really not what will help many of these kids when they get to do math later in high school. They will believe math is just about following a recipe of directions and memorizing algorithms, and it really saddens me to see bright hardworking kids in high school who have gotten to that point and not having had any practice on how to think mathematically on their own.
PP here who said I've seen creativity. My kids' homework questions are almost all the kinds of "why" and "where" questions you mentioned. Maybe we're just at a "good" center?
That is awesome to hear, glad that my experience is not necessarily everywhere. We're just at a local LIV, I'm happy at this point that his teacher is still doing a good job teaching them skills and giving them things to work on. It feels amazing compared to last year's virtual chaos, but I'm definitely disappointed that in all likelihood, even a good teacher cannot focus on math understanding or problem solving because of all these 'standards' they have to quickly cover in order to move to the next topic/standard. In this sense AAP math can definitely be worse if it's rushed and feels stressful for kids as a result. On the other hand I don't think may of the non AAP classes are necessarily better either, as it can be the same thing, (very procedural), but slower pace.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I really wish parents would stop propagating the whole "needs AAP" myth. Who "needs" a slightly advanced, slightly faster-paced program for slightly above-average kids? If your child is reasonably bright, the GBRS is going to make or break the application--and there is nothing a parent can do about that at this point. If anything, teachers clearly place a premium on strong executive functions over natural curiosity and brightness. Basically, they evaluate whether your child will succeed in AAP.
Sure, I'd rather have my smartish middle schooler in AAP than in Gen Ed because he's going to do whatever is asked of him (and, frankly, not much else), so I'd prefer to have the demands be on a higher level. And even though I disagree with the hours of homework per night that some elementary school teachers assign, I'd rather have my elementary-aged kid pick up certain skills than skip them altogether.
It just sounds so self-important and inflated to use this language about the AAP program. I have had several kids go through it and it's not a different unique way of presenting the material that engages and inspires brilliant minds that would otherwise atrophy. It's just a program that moves faster and has higher expectations.
If your child is above average and organized, the program will be a good fit. It your child is brilliant and creative, an out-of-the-box thinker, and (especially) not strong in the executive function areas, I strongly recommend private.
I fully agree with this description of the AAP program, and the discrepancy between how it is described (an innovative way to present the material to engage bright inquisitive minds who may tune out in a traditional classroom) and what it is (a slightly accelerated version of the same material presented in the same drill-like way.) I have one kid that is both bright and creative, and has high executive functioning, and he sleepwalked through the program. He also did AOPS for math and could really appreciate the different ways in which they teach math - explaining “why” as opposed to drilling the “what”. Unfortunately, the AAP screening process, as presented to parents, emphasizes the critical and creative thinking component (even if it is so sadly missing from the program), but as PP correctly pointed out, teachers don’t appreciate critical and creative thinking unless it also comes with high executive function. I now have a kid who is a very creative thinker with some ADHD-related executive function issues, who would jump only as high as the bar is set, and struggling with finding the right environment for him. I will refer him for AAP, but I am not 100% sure that is the best environment for him, and would rather be able to find a private that fits him well, though he loves his school and would find it devastating (at least initially) to leave.
My kids mirror yours (older one with higher executive functioning, younger who will jump only as high as the bar is set and who is incredibly creative), and our experience has not been the same. My oldest has occasionally not had enough drill in AAP to get a concept. They absolutely are attacking the math in a way that expects a higher IQ. Sometimes I have to slow things down and provide extra arithmetic drills at home to get concepts nailed in so my kid can get a concept. Kid still pulls all 4s in AAP and isn't slowing the class down or anything, but there's definitely a more creative aspect to the advanced math.
I have to highly disagree with the bolded above, based on my experience so far this year. As a math teacher, I have not seen a shred of creativity anywhere in the AAP math being taught to my 4th grade child. Everything that has been done so far this year involves doing lots and lots of multiplication, division, and decimal number drills, as well as conversions between fractions and decimals. Literally every question is repetitive and dry; not even 1 puzzle and/or logical thinking type question have I seen being assigned. My child can do this stuff pretty accurately, but he's not lightning fast, so he'll get extremely bored if he has to spend more than 30 minutes on homework questions that are all the same thing. Luckily I work with him on AoPS/Beast Academy type stuff at home, which is literally the exact opposite approach of these school drills.
I frankly don't understand the purpose of the math being "one year ahead" in the AAP program if it is so devoid of critical thinking and problem solving. Someone else said it perfectly upthread, there is no "why does this work", "why is this true", "where does this come from", no making connections, but just doing algorithms over and over. Sure, it moves fast, but it's really not what will help many of these kids when they get to do math later in high school. They will believe math is just about following a recipe of directions and memorizing algorithms, and it really saddens me to see bright hardworking kids in high school who have gotten to that point and not having had any practice on how to think mathematically on their own.
Anonymous wrote:When I tried googling it I found this Post article from 1978
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1978/11/13/drug-raids-disturb-rhythm-of-campus/bd24ae4c-e72f-40b5-a88e-6054a1cec658/
Nice, reading the paper was enjoyable back then!
...But while the raids represent little more than a vague hubbub on the periphery of everyday life, the rhythm of the school day is now slightly out of kilter.
In middle school they're supposed to learn how to plan ahead, study for a test, and learn to ask for help if they are stuck. Ideally they should take some notes or at least concentrate in class. I would not focus on "memorization" as that is not a good way to learn things. They should learn how to understand things, and if they feel they don't get it, self analyze by asking themselves questions to pinpoint what they don't get and then seek out help from teachers.
Anonymous wrote:DD is struggling in Algebra 2 HN. We hired a tutor, and she's been doing better on assignments. We get good reports from the tutor. She retook a quiz and earned an A- (which was a huge improvement).
She studied with the tutor the day before the test this week. His report said that she knew some things, gained clarity on others, and that she was really ready for the test.
Test day comes, and she said there were problems she didn't even know how to do (as in - she left some blank!). She hears from other students that it was really hard.
I'm not sure what is going on. DD feels like there is a disconnect between what is being taught in class and what is actually on the test. I'm not sure that is correct, but if I don't know the problem, I don't know how to give feedback to the tutor. I'm especially confused since she can do the assignments and did well on the quiz retake...
Any insight?
OP, this is unfortunately a very common scenario in US high school math classes, and I don't buy the many responses here claiming that this is unavoidable and expected because it's an "honors" class, that is math phobia playing out before our eyes.
The general root cause and problem is a systemic and cultural one: Math is taught in a procedural, algorithmic/recipe/rote based fashion, focusing mainly on computation, plug and chug, and basic application of formulas, while largely ignoring making connections between mathematical ideas, ignoring the development of deductive and logical reasoning, ignoring that students should always be encouraged to be curious and ask questions, and ignoring building general problem solving skills to help students cope with not initially knowing what to do. In class the teacher will repeat a set of steps/examples, the students will copy them down in their notebooks, and the homework assignments will largely resemble very close repetition on said steps. The end product is that over time students are effectively conditioned into a state of "learned helplessness", where they form a perception that doing well in math equates to mimicking what the teacher does (and if they don't do well, they are therefore not "smart enough" and can't do anything about it). Nothing could be further from the truth. An end result of failing or doing poorly on tests is not as much an inherent issue with the student as a manifestation of the main problem described above.
Here are some things you can do:
- First talk to your dd to understand what and how she is learning in class. If she is focusing on memorization and formulas without understanding why things are true or not, that's not a good sign. If she believes she understands concepts, you (or someone mathematically inclined) should be able to ask her to explain "why is this true", "why is that true", etc. If she cannot convincingly answer why with pretty good logical reasoning and/or explanations, then she likely doesn't fully understand the ideas and concepts. Remember how kids always ask why all time and force parents to explain every little thing until they are exhausted or run out of answers? Well, that is exactly what she should be doing; being that little kid again when it comes to learning.
- Go through some of her homework assignments with her to see if the questions are asking her to actually practice thinking and mathematical reasoning (and not just blind symbolic manipulation and/or straightforward application of rules). You are mainly looking to see if the homework that she was assigned actually helps solidify the concepts she was introduced to in class. If there are no actual problems to be solved and mostly trivial exercises, that is a bad thing. On the other hand, if there are enough challenging problems/questions in the assignments that is good, and you'll then need to check if she really understood how to do them.
- Lastly but obvious, have her find out exactly what she got wrong/left blank, etc. This is a critical step in life; learning from one's mistakes. If they don't physically give the exam back, you'll unfortunately have the extra work of setting up a call with the teacher to be able to see them in class and assess them in person at school.
Going forward, I would recommend that she slowly starts to learn how to learn herself. Initially this is hard to do (primarily because students have been conditioned to be spoon fed in school from as early as elementary school), so she may need your guidance. Note that in college they really will be on their own, and exams will not just be a repeat word for word of homework questions. You should have her get into the habit of regularly doing many of the following things:
- ALWAYS asking questions, instead of focusing on answers. Questions stimulate the brain; without asking questions, one will get into auto-pilot mode and generally stop thinking critically. This means asking a teacher when stuck, asking a parent or friend to help (but obviously do your own work), and very importantly asking herself questions. (Am I stuck? I don't initially know how to do this problem, but where could I look for clues? Have I seen anything that looks similar to this one? What are some things/paths I could try to start off? Can I first try to solve a similar but simpler version of the problem? etc, etc). Constantly asking questions like this, is required for learning math (and anything else that is initially difficult to grasp). Real understanding of math does not magically appear without lots of questions akin to how riding a bike does not happen without some amount of falling down.
- Training by doing. Practicing solving math *problems*. This should be self explanatory, but again most people don't understand that learning math means actually spending time doing math. Listening to the teacher, dutifully copying notes down with multiple colored highlighters, reading a math book on the couch.... all those things are not nearly enough to get math. The main ingredient to really getting math is actually sitting down with pencil and paper and attempting to work out math problems. What's a math problem? It's something that one doesn't initially know how to do, but given some time, they can think about it and find a solution. What's NOT a math problem? Something that someone already kind of knows how to solve when they first look at it. That's an exercise, not a problem. To use a music analogy, if her homework assignments consisted mainly of practicing scales, how could she possibly play a concerto on the exam? The homework should mirror the difficulty on tests (and often times it should be more difficult and time consuming. And if it is not, the class is not taught well and you will have to spend time finding the right resources she needs to understand the material).
- Putting enough time and effort in. This one's tied to training above. We all know how it works with sports; not enough practice means not good enough performance on the day when it counts. Sports practice needs to be done regularly, and the challenge level should represent the actual game/race, etc. Doing things sporadically, or trying to cram will not help with learning difficult concepts.
- It's ok to be wrong, and an unwillingness to give up. Again related to others above, but I want to stress that in my opinion, this is probably what drives the final outcome in terms of a good grade. If a student isn't afraid of failure, if they're willing to just try stuff and explore, if they want to figure out what went wrong... if they do these things, they WILL learn. If on the other hand they give up before putting enough effort, they will walk away with little insight. In practice, this means when one is attempting to solve a problem, they should really give it enough time. Don't just walk away looking for an answer after a few minutes. Think about it again later, or even the next day. Ask for a small hint or guidance from a teacher or parent, don't just not turn it in and give up. Often, one small hint can help lead one in the right direction, and then all of a sudden they can get unstuck and solve it themselves. This is CRITICAL, not only because this is how the brain latches on to difficult concepts (by thinking hard about them, failing, and trying a different idea), but also because it builds a solid level of confidence when one finally figures out a problem. The harder a student tries and the more effort they put into solving a problem, the more satisfaction, pride, and pleasure they will feel when do finally solve it. This is that mystical "aha moment" that everyone is always striving for. It doesn't just appear out of nowhere, it takes a bit of effort to get that level of appreciation. In school they're taught to effectively give up after minutes of not knowing something (this is just one of the many horrible consequences of timed testing). In life it never works like that, there is always plenty of time to spend on solving a hard problem, but most people just give up way too early.
Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Thank you for all the responses. Even the ones that just called me a troll and told me I needed help. I see I jumped the gun but this is new for me. This is my only child. She has always excelled and seeing such a low score freaked her out and it freaked me out. I did not know what my options were and it was disappointing to learn office hours can't start until a certain date, even if a child needs help. We will look at daily Khan Academy as a tool (great suggestion) as well as finding a tutor. She seems to struggle with planes when there are multiple ones involved and intersecting. She got the "always" "sometimes" "never" questions wrong. One question was "Two intersecting lines are ______ coplanar" and she put "sometimes." Stuff like that she got wrong. I don't know if that is a vocabulary issue, an issue understanding planes, or what but we will figure it out and help her.
what kind of garbage test is this
+1
Huh? It is a fundamental question on understanding geometry. Intersecting lines always have to be coplanar. Think of a box with one edge that is the length of the box on the bottom (let's say one of the edges that touches the ground if the box is on the ground) as one line. In order the edge of the width of the box to intersect it has to be one of the edges on the ground as well. If it is the width that is on the top of the box they wouldn't intersect. They would be skew lines and NOT coplanar.
If you can't understand that concept honor geometry is going to be really hard.
um, the problem is not that this is too hard but that is too easy. a person who merely learned this by rote can answer it correctly without knowing anything.
It isn’t too easy since OP daughter missed it. It is a different way if thinking about objects in space.
The issue is these types of questions (always, sometimes, never) are terrible test questions especially this early in a class. For both reasons, on one level it requires complex thinking that I don't think should come week 1-3 but on the other hand, it is a thing someone can memorize and not even grasp. I have no idea what OP's daughter should do. Soumds like she has a bad teacher but such is life. This may be a class she has to retake in 9th or the teacher stops giving stupid quizzes and the child knocks it out the park.
I agree that this is definitely not a good question to pose this early in the class, especially if the students have not discussed planes in space, namely the axiom that three non-collinear points in space uniquely determine a plane (this is the 3D analogy to the axiom in 2D which says 2 points uniquely determine a line passing through them). Normally geometry starts with 2D, builds up angles and triangles, then much later moves to 3D.
OP, in this situation I would argue that your child saying "sometimes" shows that she could be thinking more deeply than someone who correctly said "always". They may have been thinking of a specific example (e.g the xy plane in 2D), and just leaving it at that. One should in general try to have a good proof when distinguishing whether something is sometimes true vs always true, and I don't think it is easy or trivial for a student to find such a proof for this problem early in this class. Furthermore, posing questions such as these in multiple choice format without requiring a proof/explanation, also harms students because it can hide misunderstanding such as the example I mentioned of someone assuming the right answer from one specific example, for the wrong reason. Because she picked "sometimes" I would bet she at least tried to think about the question, may have also seen easy examples like the xy plane, but she was not satisfied it can always be true, thus guessing sometimes.
Here's one satisfactory proof that it should be "always true" (assuming they've been told that 3 non-collinear points determine a unique plane, as I mentioned earlier) would go as follows: Consider the point of intersection of the 2 lines, call it A. Now pick another point B on the first line, and another point C on the second line. A unique plane passes through A, B, C by the above axiom. Thus both lines are part of this plane.
Again, I don't expect someone new to geometry to already think along those lines, but they definitely can later in the year. I honestly wouldn't worry about it, as others said. If she enjoys thinking about how and why something works, she will do fine (hopefully the class it taught in a more logical fashion going forward and hopefully she finds geometry thought provoking and beautiful).
Are you a teacher. Will you be my teacher.
Only if you work hard and ask lots of questions indicating that you're curious and want to learn more
If it's related to grades, forget about it.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:And my recent alum has shared that many other alums felt like they couldn’t express their positive opinion of their TJ experience because of the backlash they would receive from the TJ AAG types. That’s not open minded— it’s the exact opposite.
Hundreds of TJ students signed onto a public letter the summer of 2020 sharing their positive experiences at TJ. I guess these alums would say those students are lying, too?
Just curious - can you link to that letter?
DP - it might be this one that they're referencing....
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1560is7cbJaAj6iKcHxvaJ34bBdHRaubuhJeYptFAWpQ/mobilebasic
If it is, it's worth noting that
a) it doesn't talk at all about any "positive experiences at TJ" - it references only the admissions process
b) there isn't a single co-signer to that letter who is Black and/or Hispanic
Thank-you for this, this is really well written and brings up a lot of really important points, I had not seen this before and did not know that students had created this.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Thank you for all the responses. Even the ones that just called me a troll and told me I needed help. I see I jumped the gun but this is new for me. This is my only child. She has always excelled and seeing such a low score freaked her out and it freaked me out. I did not know what my options were and it was disappointing to learn office hours can't start until a certain date, even if a child needs help. We will look at daily Khan Academy as a tool (great suggestion) as well as finding a tutor. She seems to struggle with planes when there are multiple ones involved and intersecting. She got the "always" "sometimes" "never" questions wrong. One question was "Two intersecting lines are ______ coplanar" and she put "sometimes." Stuff like that she got wrong. I don't know if that is a vocabulary issue, an issue understanding planes, or what but we will figure it out and help her.
what kind of garbage test is this
+1
Huh? It is a fundamental question on understanding geometry. Intersecting lines always have to be coplanar. Think of a box with one edge that is the length of the box on the bottom (let's say one of the edges that touches the ground if the box is on the ground) as one line. In order the edge of the width of the box to intersect it has to be one of the edges on the ground as well. If it is the width that is on the top of the box they wouldn't intersect. They would be skew lines and NOT coplanar.
If you can't understand that concept honor geometry is going to be really hard.
um, the problem is not that this is too hard but that is too easy. a person who merely learned this by rote can answer it correctly without knowing anything.
It isn’t too easy since OP daughter missed it. It is a different way if thinking about objects in space.
The issue is these types of questions (always, sometimes, never) are terrible test questions especially this early in a class. For both reasons, on one level it requires complex thinking that I don't think should come week 1-3 but on the other hand, it is a thing someone can memorize and not even grasp. I have no idea what OP's daughter should do. Soumds like she has a bad teacher but such is life. This may be a class she has to retake in 9th or the teacher stops giving stupid quizzes and the child knocks it out the park.
I agree that this is definitely not a good question to pose this early in the class, especially if the students have not discussed planes in space, namely the axiom that three non-collinear points in space uniquely determine a plane (this is the 3D analogy to the axiom in 2D which says 2 points uniquely determine a line passing through them). Normally geometry starts with 2D, builds up angles and triangles, then much later moves to 3D.
OP, in this situation I would argue that your child saying "sometimes" shows that she could be thinking more deeply than someone who correctly said "always". They may have been thinking of a specific example (e.g the xy plane in 2D), and just leaving it at that. One should in general try to have a good proof when distinguishing whether something is sometimes true vs always true, and I don't think it is easy or trivial for a student to find such a proof for this problem early in this class. Furthermore, posing questions such as these in multiple choice format without requiring a proof/explanation, also harms students because it can hide misunderstanding such as the example I mentioned of someone assuming the right answer from one specific example, for the wrong reason. Because she picked "sometimes" I would bet she at least tried to think about the question, may have also seen easy examples like the xy plane, but she was not satisfied it can always be true, thus guessing sometimes.
Here's one satisfactory proof that it should be "always true" (assuming they've been told that 3 non-collinear points determine a unique plane, as I mentioned earlier) would go as follows: Consider the point of intersection of the 2 lines, call it A. Now pick another point B on the first line, and another point C on the second line. A unique plane passes through A, B, C by the above axiom. Thus both lines are part of this plane.
Again, I don't expect someone new to geometry to already think along those lines, but they definitely can later in the year. I honestly wouldn't worry about it, as others said. If she enjoys thinking about how and why something works, she will do fine (hopefully the class it taught in a more logical fashion going forward and hopefully she finds geometry thought provoking and beautiful).
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.
Welcome to 'Murican public school education.
+1. Colleague went to another state. His son took algebra placement test as a sophomore (having done Algebra in 7th grade in the great MCPS). Guess what? Very bright kid - parents were Ivy and SLAC - had to take Algebra all over again. There is a great argument that most kid brains are not developed enough for the abstract thinking needed to succeed. I know Lake Wobegon effect around here...because just ‘cause you are in Potomac doesn’t mean your brain is any different...
Not necessarily. There are many other possible reasons, related to his motivation, teaching quality, etc. I'd be very skeptical of studies making a general claim that someone's brain is not ready for algebra as it's taught in middle school. I think it's far more likely that he does not understand fractions, factoring, and the distributive property, which are a few of the fundamentals necessary for understanding algebra well.
Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?
So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?
My child is in 6th grade btw.
I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.
Thanks.
Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.
Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.
https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap
If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter
The problem isn't top schools. Places such as MIT and Stanford wouldn't really care about AP classes anyway. They're looking to differentiate among the large applicant pool; someone who took 2 more APs than someone else doesn't really look anymore impressive or different.
The problem is the number of students and parents who want to go to only the top schools and believe that they will stand out via perfect grades and APs (they will to some degree, but that's not nearly enough for those schools, due to the far larger # of qualified applicants vs acceptances). By pushing quantity vs quality, parents and teachers are removing the joy of learning and curiosity from education.
Parents need to step back, remove the pressure to "get ahead" to college, and first and foremost focus on whether their child is actually learning valuable things. Getting into college is just a first step; excelling there is a completely different story.
Props to you for two things:
1) nailing this right on the head
2) being the only person I've seen on this board in 5+ years to actually use a profile and not post anonymously
Ha, found the thread interesting and figured it's a lot easier to get email notifications than refresh a tab.
Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?
So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?
My child is in 6th grade btw.
I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.
Thanks.
Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.
Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.
https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap
If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter
The problem isn't top schools. Places such as MIT and Stanford wouldn't really care about AP classes anyway. They're looking to differentiate among the large applicant pool; someone who took 2 more APs than someone else doesn't really look anymore impressive or different.
The problem is the number of students and parents who want to go to only the top schools and believe that they will stand out via perfect grades and APs (they will to some degree, but that's not nearly enough for those schools, due to the far larger # of qualified applicants vs acceptances). By pushing quantity vs quality, parents and teachers are removing the joy of learning and curiosity from education.
Parents need to step back, remove the pressure to "get ahead" to college, and first and foremost focus on whether their child is actually learning valuable things. Getting into college is just a first step; excelling there is a completely different story.
Yup. All of this.
People tend to put down the small liberal arts colleges but there are advantages to being at a school with a small Teacher to Student ratio where the Teachers can evaluate their students strengths and weaknesses and help guide the student to improve in areas that they need to improve while encouraging their strengths as well. The emphasis on prestige schools, TJ or the Big 3 Privates in high school or the Ivies or top Engineering schools make it hard for students to take classes that make sense for their learning style and pace. You can be a good math student and not take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade.
We have weaponized education so much so that we are sacrificing kids by demanding that the perform at a high level in all areas so that they might have a chance of attending a prestige school because that prize is more important then the kids actual education.
Yep, and this is a problem at TJ with huge numbers of seniors applying to UVA, VT, etc. and being surprised they cannot get in. Their solid education allows them many many great opportunities to excel at many other colleges in the country with excellent programs (to your point, there are some liberal arts schools with incredible undergrad mathematics programs, etc). But the pressure to do what other seniors are doing (and possibly not enough influence by their college counselors to show them more varied choices), makes it almost groupthink behavior.
Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?
So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?
My child is in 6th grade btw.
I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.
Thanks.
Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.
Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.
https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap
"The primary difference is that the curricular education is designed to give students many tools to apply to straightforward specific problems. Rather than learning more and more tools, avid students are better off learning how to take tools they have and applying them to complex problems. "
yes, this, 1000X this. when our kids started school in america my DH and i realized that they are simply not doing hard problems. at any given "tool level", as the article put it there (e.g. knowledge of certain concepts and algorithms), they do loads of extremely simple problems, then move and introduce the next thing.
Yep, in many old school textbooks in other countries those were denoted as "exercises" to distinguish them as more straightforward from the later questions which were indeed called "problems". The idea being an exercise is testing your basic understanding of the material taught, vs a problem which is challenging your ability to use the ideas in the material to solve something you don't initially know how to do (but can work out via some amount of thought).
In virtually all of America's K-12 math classrooms, there are no problems to solve, only exercises. The music analogy of playing scales over and over again and seeing no songs.
Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?
So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?
My child is in 6th grade btw.
I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.
Thanks.
Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.
Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.
https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap
If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter
The problem isn't top schools. Places such as MIT and Stanford wouldn't really care about AP classes anyway. They're looking to differentiate among the large applicant pool; someone who took 2 more APs than someone else doesn't really look anymore impressive or different.
The problem is the number of students and parents who want to go to only the top schools and believe that they will stand out via perfect grades and APs (they will to some degree, but that's not nearly enough for those schools, due to the far larger # of qualified applicants vs acceptances). By pushing quantity vs quality, parents and teachers are removing the joy of learning and curiosity from education.
Parents need to step back, remove the pressure to "get ahead" to college, and first and foremost focus on whether their child is actually learning valuable things. Getting into college is just a first step; excelling there is a completely different story.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?
So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?
My child is in 6th grade btw.
I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.
Thanks.
Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.
Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.
https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it.
How is that possible? I recall doing them sophmore year of high school.
Weird. Back in the day, we were doing formal proofs starting in either Algebra I or Geometry. Proofs were a pretty standard part of math instruction. If proofs are no longer being taught in high school math classes, then that's a great example of how modern high school math has been slowed down and watered down.
Proofs are not taught anymore in K-12, other than what passes for a proof in geometry class (i.e the "2 column proof" which is a huge crutch that mainly hinders student's development).