Algebra 2 HN tests

[Anonymous]

DD is struggling in Algebra 2 HN. We hired a tutor, and she's been doing better on assignments. We get good reports from the tutor. She retook a quiz and earned an A- (which was a huge improvement).

She studied with the tutor the day before the test this week. His report said that she knew some things, gained clarity on others, and that she was really ready for the test.

Test day comes, and she said there were problems she didn't even know how to do (as in - she left some blank!). She hears from other students that it was really hard.

I'm not sure what is going on. DD feels like there is a disconnect between what is being taught in class and what is actually on the test. I'm not sure that is correct, but if I don't know the problem, I don't know how to give feedback to the tutor. I'm especially confused since she can do the assignments and did well on the quiz retake...

Any insight?

[Anonymous]

Possible the teacher put concepts on the test that weren't taught. Seems like the best insight might be from the fellow students and from teh teacher him/herself.

[Anonymous]

My kid's honors algebra 2 class (private) is the exact same way. The teacher expects the kids to take what they've been taught and apply the concepts in completely new ways on the tests. It is meant to test a deep understanding of the material.
I think this is par for the course in an "honors" level class. Regular Algebra 2 is more regurgitation of previously learned concepts. "Honors" is all about challenge problems.

It is very hard for kids who are not really math-brained. I was one of those kids. I would have sunk like a rock in one of these honors level classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid's honors algebra 2 class (private) is the exact same way. The teacher expects the kids to take what they've been taught and apply the concepts in completely new ways on the tests. It is meant to test a deep understanding of the material.
I think this is par for the course in an "honors" level class. Regular Algebra 2 is more regurgitation of previously learned concepts. "Honors" is all about challenge problems.

It is very hard for kids who are not really math-brained. I was one of those kids. I would have sunk like a rock in one of these honors level classes.

This. If you want tests that don't force them to take things to a higher level drop down to regular Algebra 2. Honors is about challenge and extensions.

[Anonymous]

Previous poster again:

My kid is reasonably good at math but not a prodigy and what has inadvertently worked well for him is taking Algebra 2 followed by Algebra 2 honors. He took Algebra 2 in public (8th grade), and then transferred to private and was placed in Algebra 2 honors for 9th.

Algebra 2: learned the concepts; test problems were very similar to homework problems.
Algebra 2 honors: class is going much deeper in concepts, test problems are nothing like the homework problems--he has to think "live" on every exam.

I realize that this isn't a sequence anyone can plan on but to me it has demonstrated how different honors level math classes are from regular (in our experience). It will change what math classes I put my younger kids in.

[Anonymous]

It will be like this next year.

[Anonymous]

Honors is about knowing the material very well, well enough that the material can be tested in unique/mind stretching ways.

Honors math is for students who like math. DD would rather study math/do math problems than work on any other school work, btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid's honors algebra 2 class (private) is the exact same way. The teacher expects the kids to take what they've been taught and apply the concepts in completely new ways on the tests. It is meant to test a deep understanding of the material.
I think this is par for the course in an "honors" level class. Regular Algebra 2 is more regurgitation of previously learned concepts. "Honors" is all about challenge problems.

It is very hard for kids who are not really math-brained. I was one of those kids. I would have sunk like a rock in one of these honors level classes.

This. If you want tests that don't force them to take things to a higher level drop down to regular Algebra 2. Honors is about challenge and extensions.

+1. My kid will graduate with 10 humanities AP classes. She maxed out the humanities curriculum. Not a slacker. And she cruised along in HN math until A2. And it was a brutal first semester. She dropped down to standard A2 and pre-Calc, then went on to AP Calc AB it’s fine. At some point the math took so much time and so much effort it pulled her attention away from the other 6 classes. This was a common theme among her friends. Kids who were headed on to college for hardcore STEM did fine in A2 honors and the other kids didn’t.

I wish schools were more upfront about the fact A2 Honors is a weeder class. If I realized what a huge step up it was from A1 and Geo, my kid would have started at the right level and saved herself an awful semester. It’s a very conceptual class. It’s not going to get easier. Get out while you can. I know kids who tied themselves in knots with this class with weekly tutoring endless Kahn Academy and ended but in the B-/C+ range. And they regret not dropping. An A in Standard is definitely better than a low B/ high C in honors. The extra GPA weight is nice and most rigorous is important and Harvard may hold it against you. But sometimes you need to face reality about your kid’s strengths and limitations.

[Anonymous]

Eh, my okay but not stellar math kid got an a- in honors algebra 2. Worked hard for it, definitely.

[pettifogger]

Anonymous wrote:DD is struggling in Algebra 2 HN. We hired a tutor, and she's been doing better on assignments. We get good reports from the tutor. She retook a quiz and earned an A- (which was a huge improvement).

She studied with the tutor the day before the test this week. His report said that she knew some things, gained clarity on others, and that she was really ready for the test.

Test day comes, and she said there were problems she didn't even know how to do (as in - she left some blank!). She hears from other students that it was really hard.

I'm not sure what is going on. DD feels like there is a disconnect between what is being taught in class and what is actually on the test. I'm not sure that is correct, but if I don't know the problem, I don't know how to give feedback to the tutor. I'm especially confused since she can do the assignments and did well on the quiz retake...

Any insight?

OP, this is unfortunately a very common scenario in US high school math classes, and I don't buy the many responses here claiming that this is unavoidable and expected because it's an "honors" class, that is math phobia playing out before our eyes.

The general root cause and problem is a systemic and cultural one: Math is taught in a procedural, algorithmic/recipe/rote based fashion, focusing mainly on computation, plug and chug, and basic application of formulas, while largely ignoring making connections between mathematical ideas, ignoring the development of deductive and logical reasoning, ignoring that students should always be encouraged to be curious and ask questions, and ignoring building general problem solving skills to help students cope with not initially knowing what to do. In class the teacher will repeat a set of steps/examples, the students will copy them down in their notebooks, and the homework assignments will largely resemble very close repetition on said steps. The end product is that over time students are effectively conditioned into a state of "learned helplessness", where they form a perception that doing well in math equates to mimicking what the teacher does (and if they don't do well, they are therefore not "smart enough" and can't do anything about it). Nothing could be further from the truth. An end result of failing or doing poorly on tests is not as much an inherent issue with the student as a manifestation of the main problem described above.

Here are some things you can do:

- First talk to your dd to understand what and how she is learning in class. If she is focusing on memorization and formulas without understanding why things are true or not, that's not a good sign. If she believes she understands concepts, you (or someone mathematically inclined) should be able to ask her to explain "why is this true", "why is that true", etc. If she cannot convincingly answer why with pretty good logical reasoning and/or explanations, then she likely doesn't fully understand the ideas and concepts. Remember how kids always ask why all time and force parents to explain every little thing until they are exhausted or run out of answers? Well, that is exactly what she should be doing; being that little kid again when it comes to learning.

- Go through some of her homework assignments with her to see if the questions are asking her to actually practice thinking and mathematical reasoning (and not just blind symbolic manipulation and/or straightforward application of rules). You are mainly looking to see if the homework that she was assigned actually helps solidify the concepts she was introduced to in class. If there are no actual problems to be solved and mostly trivial exercises, that is a bad thing. On the other hand, if there are enough challenging problems/questions in the assignments that is good, and you'll then need to check if she really understood how to do them.

- Lastly but obvious, have her find out exactly what she got wrong/left blank, etc. This is a critical step in life; learning from one's mistakes. If they don't physically give the exam back, you'll unfortunately have the extra work of setting up a call with the teacher to be able to see them in class and assess them in person at school.

Going forward, I would recommend that she slowly starts to learn how to learn herself. Initially this is hard to do (primarily because students have been conditioned to be spoon fed in school from as early as elementary school), so she may need your guidance. Note that in college they really will be on their own, and exams will not just be a repeat word for word of homework questions. You should have her get into the habit of regularly doing many of the following things:

- ALWAYS asking questions, instead of focusing on answers. Questions stimulate the brain; without asking questions, one will get into auto-pilot mode and generally stop thinking critically. This means asking a teacher when stuck, asking a parent or friend to help (but obviously do your own work), and very importantly asking herself questions. (Am I stuck? I don't initially know how to do this problem, but where could I look for clues? Have I seen anything that looks similar to this one? What are some things/paths I could try to start off? Can I first try to solve a similar but simpler version of the problem? etc, etc). Constantly asking questions like this, is required for learning math (and anything else that is initially difficult to grasp). Real understanding of math does not magically appear without lots of questions akin to how riding a bike does not happen without some amount of falling down.

- Training by doing. Practicing solving math *problems*. This should be self explanatory, but again most people don't understand that learning math means actually spending time doing math. Listening to the teacher, dutifully copying notes down with multiple colored highlighters, reading a math book on the couch.... all those things are not nearly enough to get math. The main ingredient to really getting math is actually sitting down with pencil and paper and attempting to work out math problems. What's a math problem? It's something that one doesn't initially know how to do, but given some time, they can think about it and find a solution. What's NOT a math problem? Something that someone already kind of knows how to solve when they first look at it. That's an exercise, not a problem. To use a music analogy, if her homework assignments consisted mainly of practicing scales, how could she possibly play a concerto on the exam? The homework should mirror the difficulty on tests (and often times it should be more difficult and time consuming. And if it is not, the class is not taught well and you will have to spend time finding the right resources she needs to understand the material).

- Putting enough time and effort in. This one's tied to training above. We all know how it works with sports; not enough practice means not good enough performance on the day when it counts. Sports practice needs to be done regularly, and the challenge level should represent the actual game/race, etc. Doing things sporadically, or trying to cram will not help with learning difficult concepts.

- It's ok to be wrong, and an unwillingness to give up. Again related to others above, but I want to stress that in my opinion, this is probably what drives the final outcome in terms of a good grade. If a student isn't afraid of failure, if they're willing to just try stuff and explore, if they want to figure out what went wrong... if they do these things, they WILL learn. If on the other hand they give up before putting enough effort, they will walk away with little insight. In practice, this means when one is attempting to solve a problem, they should really give it enough time. Don't just walk away looking for an answer after a few minutes. Think about it again later, or even the next day. Ask for a small hint or guidance from a teacher or parent, don't just not turn it in and give up. Often, one small hint can help lead one in the right direction, and then all of a sudden they can get unstuck and solve it themselves. This is CRITICAL, not only because this is how the brain latches on to difficult concepts (by thinking hard about them, failing, and trying a different idea), but also because it builds a solid level of confidence when one finally figures out a problem. The harder a student tries and the more effort they put into solving a problem, the more satisfaction, pride, and pleasure they will feel when do finally solve it. This is that mystical "aha moment" that everyone is always striving for. It doesn't just appear out of nowhere, it takes a bit of effort to get that level of appreciation. In school they're taught to effectively give up after minutes of not knowing something (this is just one of the many horrible consequences of timed testing). In life it never works like that, there is always plenty of time to spend on solving a hard problem, but most people just give up way too early.

[Anonymous]

By the time you get to Algebra 2, most honors classes are about applying the concepts. They can’t memorize how to do problems anymore in a cookie cutter fashion like lower math classes. It’s a jump but application has been in all advanced classes forever. This is why so many kids decide they no longer want to continue with honors in high school.

[Anonymous]

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is struggling in Algebra 2 HN. We hired a tutor, and she's been doing better on assignments. We get good reports from the tutor. She retook a quiz and earned an A- (which was a huge improvement).

She studied with the tutor the day before the test this week. His report said that she knew some things, gained clarity on others, and that she was really ready for the test.

Test day comes, and she said there were problems she didn't even know how to do (as in - she left some blank!). She hears from other students that it was really hard.

I'm not sure what is going on. DD feels like there is a disconnect between what is being taught in class and what is actually on the test. I'm not sure that is correct, but if I don't know the problem, I don't know how to give feedback to the tutor. I'm especially confused since she can do the assignments and did well on the quiz retake...

Any insight?

OP, this is unfortunately a very common scenario in US high school math classes, and I don't buy the many responses here claiming that this is unavoidable and expected because it's an "honors" class, that is math phobia playing out before our eyes.

The general root cause and problem is a systemic and cultural one: Math is taught in a procedural, algorithmic/recipe/rote based fashion, focusing mainly on computation, plug and chug, and basic application of formulas, while largely ignoring making connections between mathematical ideas, ignoring the development of deductive and logical reasoning, ignoring that students should always be encouraged to be curious and ask questions, and ignoring building general problem solving skills to help students cope with not initially knowing what to do. In class the teacher will repeat a set of steps/examples, the students will copy them down in their notebooks, and the homework assignments will largely resemble very close repetition on said steps. The end product is that over time students are effectively conditioned into a state of "learned helplessness", where they form a perception that doing well in math equates to mimicking what the teacher does (and if they don't do well, they are therefore not "smart enough" and can't do anything about it). Nothing could be further from the truth. An end result of failing or doing poorly on tests is not as much an inherent issue with the student as a manifestation of the main problem described above.

Here are some things you can do:

- First talk to your dd to understand what and how she is learning in class. If she is focusing on memorization and formulas without understanding why things are true or not, that's not a good sign. If she believes she understands concepts, you (or someone mathematically inclined) should be able to ask her to explain "why is this true", "why is that true", etc. If she cannot convincingly answer why with pretty good logical reasoning and/or explanations, then she likely doesn't fully understand the ideas and concepts. Remember how kids always ask why all time and force parents to explain every little thing until they are exhausted or run out of answers? Well, that is exactly what she should be doing; being that little kid again when it comes to learning.

- Go through some of her homework assignments with her to see if the questions are asking her to actually practice thinking and mathematical reasoning (and not just blind symbolic manipulation and/or straightforward application of rules). You are mainly looking to see if the homework that she was assigned actually helps solidify the concepts she was introduced to in class. If there are no actual problems to be solved and mostly trivial exercises, that is a bad thing. On the other hand, if there are enough challenging problems/questions in the assignments that is good, and you'll then need to check if she really understood how to do them.

- Lastly but obvious, have her find out exactly what she got wrong/left blank, etc. This is a critical step in life; learning from one's mistakes. If they don't physically give the exam back, you'll unfortunately have the extra work of setting up a call with the teacher to be able to see them in class and assess them in person at school.

Going forward, I would recommend that she slowly starts to learn how to learn herself. Initially this is hard to do (primarily because students have been conditioned to be spoon fed in school from as early as elementary school), so she may need your guidance. Note that in college they really will be on their own, and exams will not just be a repeat word for word of homework questions. You should have her get into the habit of regularly doing many of the following things:

- ALWAYS asking questions, instead of focusing on answers. Questions stimulate the brain; without asking questions, one will get into auto-pilot mode and generally stop thinking critically. This means asking a teacher when stuck, asking a parent or friend to help (but obviously do your own work), and very importantly asking herself questions. (Am I stuck? I don't initially know how to do this problem, but where could I look for clues? Have I seen anything that looks similar to this one? What are some things/paths I could try to start off? Can I first try to solve a similar but simpler version of the problem? etc, etc). Constantly asking questions like this, is required for learning math (and anything else that is initially difficult to grasp). Real understanding of math does not magically appear without lots of questions akin to how riding a bike does not happen without some amount of falling down.

- Training by doing. Practicing solving math *problems*. This should be self explanatory, but again most people don't understand that learning math means actually spending time doing math. Listening to the teacher, dutifully copying notes down with multiple colored highlighters, reading a math book on the couch.... all those things are not nearly enough to get math. The main ingredient to really getting math is actually sitting down with pencil and paper and attempting to work out math problems. What's a math problem? It's something that one doesn't initially know how to do, but given some time, they can think about it and find a solution. What's NOT a math problem? Something that someone already kind of knows how to solve when they first look at it. That's an exercise, not a problem. To use a music analogy, if her homework assignments consisted mainly of practicing scales, how could she possibly play a concerto on the exam? The homework should mirror the difficulty on tests (and often times it should be more difficult and time consuming. And if it is not, the class is not taught well and you will have to spend time finding the right resources she needs to understand the material).

- Putting enough time and effort in. This one's tied to training above. We all know how it works with sports; not enough practice means not good enough performance on the day when it counts. Sports practice needs to be done regularly, and the challenge level should represent the actual game/race, etc. Doing things sporadically, or trying to cram will not help with learning difficult concepts.

- It's ok to be wrong, and an unwillingness to give up. Again related to others above, but I want to stress that in my opinion, this is probably what drives the final outcome in terms of a good grade. If a student isn't afraid of failure, if they're willing to just try stuff and explore, if they want to figure out what went wrong... if they do these things, they WILL learn. If on the other hand they give up before putting enough effort, they will walk away with little insight. In practice, this means when one is attempting to solve a problem, they should really give it enough time. Don't just walk away looking for an answer after a few minutes. Think about it again later, or even the next day. Ask for a small hint or guidance from a teacher or parent, don't just not turn it in and give up. Often, one small hint can help lead one in the right direction, and then all of a sudden they can get unstuck and solve it themselves. This is CRITICAL, not only because this is how the brain latches on to difficult concepts (by thinking hard about them, failing, and trying a different idea), but also because it builds a solid level of confidence when one finally figures out a problem. The harder a student tries and the more effort they put into solving a problem, the more satisfaction, pride, and pleasure they will feel when do finally solve it. This is that mystical "aha moment" that everyone is always striving for. It doesn't just appear out of nowhere, it takes a bit of effort to get that level of appreciation. In school they're taught to effectively give up after minutes of not knowing something (this is just one of the many horrible consequences of timed testing). In life it never works like that, there is always plenty of time to spend on solving a hard problem, but most people just give up way too early.

+1

If I give 10 problems to DS and he completes all of them in quick time, I consider that a pure waste of time. It means they did not learn anything new.
is
I would prefer that he struggle for 1 hour on a single problem. That is where learning happens, even though it might seem nothing came of it.

Also is is no such thing as a "not really math-brained" kid. Only kids who did not get a chance to learn math the right way.

OP - My suggestion is to practice with tougher and more challenging problems on the material he learned. Spending time and struggling with problems is the only way to learn math.

The way math is taught also kills children's interest. It is so boring to do problems that you already know how to do. What is the fun in that? As they learn to do difficult problems, they get more confidence, the concepts crystalize in their mind and it gives a dopamine kick as well.