Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are drinking the koolaid. Some tricks may or may not be covered in a high school Algebra I class. But more is covered in the school class. It’s a class that meets every day for a year. Aops meets once a week.

It’s a great program. It’s the best program that is readily available if you ask me. But nothing compares to a real high school class. Your experience may differ. like with everything you get what you put into it.

DP, but let's do the math. In FCPS middle schools with block scheduling, Algebra I honors meets every other day for 1.5 hours. In that class, perhaps 1 hour is used as instructional time and the other half hour is used for kids to get an early start on homework. So, there are approximately 2.5 hours of instructional time in the schedule. This isn't accounting for teacher work days, holidays, and any other disruptions in the schedule. The average weekly instructional time would be less than 2.5 hours due to the holidays and such.

AoPS classes have 1 hour and 45 minutes of in-class instruction per week. Generally, holidays aren't off, so they're doing this every week. It really isn't much less than an in-person class. Also, AoPS classes have fewer students than FCPS ones, so the kids get more individual attention and are more able to ask questions of the teacher.

Both AoPS and FCPS honors algebra have similar weekly homework loads. There isn't the huge gulf between the two.

This is incorrect. Even with block sceduling, math still meets every day.

And if you really think that AOPS is faithfully replicating a high school honors math class, why would you send your kid to school duplicatively instead of homeschool them? Even in college, as an engineering major, I only took one math class at a time. Poor kids.

As an engineer I'm surprised at the number of assumptions you are making here. AoPS is an enrichment program and is taught/implemented in very different fashion to algebra class in school (and aimed at motivated and high performing kids, not the exact same audience that takes algebra in school). Is there something wrong with going beyond school in doing enrichment activities outside of school? Also I also don't understand your "poor kids" comment here; is this your personal projection, or do you just advocate for having a low bar as to what kids can handle? Most are very excited to get to learn learn outside of school (not just math, but anything they are interested in) and much more capable than you seem to think. I'm also very surprised that you don't seem to believe that math is a central component of engineering. I majored in engineering and I had lots of math in each one of my engineering classes, (at least 2 to 3 classes each semester). Some engineering classes were almost completely math.

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been at least one poster claiming that a child who is able to take and pass Algebra I in 5th grade is rare or an outlier.

Aops is hugely popular. Loads of 5th graders taking algebra in 5th grade. If you talk to homeschooling circles (where aops is used as a curriculum by itself) it’s by no means weird for above average kids to take algebra I in 5th.

Also there are whole countries where algebra is taught in 5th grade, right? This is a huge argument made on this forum.

So while it’s advanced for a student to study this on the side I don’t think it’s really a sign of needing radical acceleration. It’s merely a sign that the student is receiving outside tutoring.

Having worked with the aops curriculum I don’t think it stands as a complete substitution for an honors Algebra I course that is taught at the high school level. It’s different. The concepts are introduced through self discovery which can mean a student learns at a deeper level. But not always. And I don’t think it is as rigorous. There is far less drilling and practice. Which isn’t needed if the student gets it the first time. But on the flip side a student can easily skip over problem sections and there isn’t much review.

Math competitions in elementary school are purely extra curricular. Doing well on the AMC 8 is only a sign that the student does well on that competition because they are accelerated or because they have studied the test. Not until
The AMC 12 is it really meaningful of anything more.

You see, a child who can fully understand Algebra I at 10 but have trouble with higher level and more abstract problems at 18. There’s no predicting this.

A kid who takes the aops curriculum is not fully understanding Algebra 1 honors level math. They may understand concepts or pockets of material but not the breadth of material for the whole course.

I have to highly disagree with this statement. The AoPS curriculum and problems are deeper than what is found in school algebra 1 classes. Additionally, kids are exposed to many other special topics that would be highly unlikely to be found in school (e.g Vietas formulas, Simon's favorite factoring trick, self similarity, as well as a separate in depth unit on counting and combinatorics). I don't believe any of these topics are seen in school.

You are drinking the koolaid. Some tricks may or may not be covered in a high school Algebra I class. But more is covered in the school class. It’s a class that meets every day for a year. Aops meets once a week.

It’s a great program. It’s the best program that is readily available if you ask me. But nothing compares to a real high school class. Your experience may differ. like with everything you get what you put into it.

It's silly to argue that just because kids spend more time in math class at school than they do at AoPS, they end up covering more as a result. First of all, AoPS pacing moves much more quickly than in school. (It has to, since we only have about 60 hours of class time with kids during the year; 1hr 45min per week for 36 weeks). Second of all, the kids that come to AoPS don't go there because they need help with their regular math class. They go because they're ahead in their math class and want to go beyond and can handle the pace and rigor of the classes. The expectations are much higher. For example we expect them to do assigned reading in their textbook ahead of class, if they don't do it they're less likely to be able to keep up during class. We expect them to spend up to 2 hours (or even more) on the weekly homework, if they want to be able to solve most or all the problems (some problems are very challenging applications of the concepts and definitely extend beyond what homework problems normally look like in school). So this comes to about 6 hours of weekly time spent on math (including our class time) and this is what we'd expect for kids to spend in order to master the material and do well on our exams. Again, notice that 2/3 of this time is spent outside of class; that's where a lot of the learning comes from, from struggling to solve problems that are not initially obvious; (not from drilling the basics again and again, which is a large focus of school math classes).

I do agree with your last point, you get what you put into it. Every kid is different and many here are trying to argue very specifically about when and what age, etc. their kids will take a math class. Age is just one of many many factors determining success in a math class. Effort, motivation, encouragement, time available, etc. etc. are other factors and you cannot say that FCPS algebra 1 is better than AoPS, or vice-versa. The programs are completely different. Some kids would not handle AoPS (they may enjoy it, or get something out of going, and you can argue that exposure may be just fine and work for them, but they may not successfully master our material). Obviously those kids also need to learn it well, thus need to take the class in school. On the other hand, there definitely exist kids which master AoPS and consequently do not need the equivalent school class. There are also many kids (maybe most) who do both at the same time; this fits well since they learn the basics in school but at the same time work on more challenging problems at AoPS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been at least one poster claiming that a child who is able to take and pass Algebra I in 5th grade is rare or an outlier.

Aops is hugely popular. Loads of 5th graders taking algebra in 5th grade. If you talk to homeschooling circles (where aops is used as a curriculum by itself) it’s by no means weird for above average kids to take algebra I in 5th.

Also there are whole countries where algebra is taught in 5th grade, right? This is a huge argument made on this forum.

So while it’s advanced for a student to study this on the side I don’t think it’s really a sign of needing radical acceleration. It’s merely a sign that the student is receiving outside tutoring.

Having worked with the aops curriculum I don’t think it stands as a complete substitution for an honors Algebra I course that is taught at the high school level. It’s different. The concepts are introduced through self discovery which can mean a student learns at a deeper level. But not always. And I don’t think it is as rigorous. There is far less drilling and practice. Which isn’t needed if the student gets it the first time. But on the flip side a student can easily skip over problem sections and there isn’t much review.

Math competitions in elementary school are purely extra curricular. Doing well on the AMC 8 is only a sign that the student does well on that competition because they are accelerated or because they have studied the test. Not until
The AMC 12 is it really meaningful of anything more.

You see, a child who can fully understand Algebra I at 10 but have trouble with higher level and more abstract problems at 18. There’s no predicting this.

A kid who takes the aops curriculum is not fully understanding Algebra 1 honors level math. They may understand concepts or pockets of material but not the breadth of material for the whole course.

I have to highly disagree with this statement. The AoPS curriculum and problems are deeper than what is found in school algebra 1 classes. Additionally, kids are exposed to many other special topics that would be highly unlikely to be found in school (e.g Vietas formulas, Simon's favorite factoring trick, self similarity, as well as a separate in depth unit on counting and combinatorics). I don't believe any of these topics are seen in school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes it is, and it isn't something I'm not breathing about. But since it sounded so implausible for others to think that someone would consider having their kid sit through algebra at AoPS and then FCPS a few years later, I was just noting that I would make the same exact decision. That's all! To each their own. Doesn't mean someone else is lying about their kid.

It's implausible for a kid within FCPS AAP to complete AoPS Algebra in 5th, but then wait all the way until 8th grade to take FCPS Algebra, which is what the PP originally implied. The top kids in FCPS take Algebra in 6th. The top half of the kids in AAP take it in 7th (probably around 10% of FCPS kids..?) It would be really weird to take a kid who is ready for (and completed) a rigorous Algebra program in 5th and then refuse to let your kid skip ahead for 6th grade algebra, have your kid crush the IAAT in 6th AAP math, but refuse to let him or her join his high performing peers in 7th grade Algebra, and instead make your kid wait until 8th, which is when the AAP kids who failed the IAAT or aren't particularly good in math take Algebra.

If your kid continues absorbing math concepts and is allowed to skip to 6th grade Algebra, I bet you and your DD will leap at the chance. It unlikely that you will make her wait all the way until 8th.

I think you are the one who needs to take a deep breath. Read what the tutor posted above. Some parents are considering math outside school as enrichment and want to keep their kids on a normal math track. There are many experts in math education advising this route. Nobody is talking about math geniuses who are intuiting calculus in 4th grade. We are talking about normal smart kids who will probably not even major in math. They are highly gifted and their parents just want some outside stimulus for them without having to commit to calculus in 10th grade. These parents are not trying to build a trajectory into MIT. And these parents understand if their kid is so inclined they can always accelerate down the line.

I’m the one who told you to breathe. Not the follow up posters. What you’re suggesting is unwise. You’ll be complaining your kid is soooo bored. You also go from says the kids aren’t math geniuses but they are highly gifted. Come again?

You do realize that there are a lot of highly gifted kids and the vast majority are not figuring out calculus in 4th grade? I get that those few may need acceleration. But a kid understanding algebra I in 5th? These are normal smart kids who are able to comprehend math years above their grade but are also interested in other academic areas beyond math. And there is no reason to push these kids so far ahead in school just because of outside enrichment. If reviewing the math learned outside school in school a few years later is too much for a child I would not recommend this route for that kid.

Maybe they can understand the ideas in 5th grade, and while that's great, it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be able to do well or even pass an Algebra 1 exam. Obviously in that case they need to take a full year algebra class in school to master the concepts. On the other hand, if the kids have already shown mastery by succeeding in an AoPS algebra course or equivalent, then it would be a big waste of time to repeat algebra 1 in school years later. In any case you likely needn't worry about this scenario; it's relatively rare to have 5th graders master algebra. If you have that type of kid, they are probably highly interested in mathematics and would definitely need a lot of acceleration to keep them challenged.

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, if my 2nd grader stays this interested in math, I intend to also have her go through either AoPS or RSM Algebra ahead of schedule, and will ABSOLUTELY have her take it again in 7th or 8th grade, while doing whatever levels of math is appropriate outside of school at AoPS/RSM/CTY.

This all depends on how the child develops, which is based on numerous factors, and I don't think you can be certain. A kid's mathematical maturity progresses in nonlinear fashion, parents can't predict or control when it will develop. While it's great that people want to expose their kids to more advanced math through the wealth of rich resources out there, it's not wise to try to pinpoint with absolute certainty what will happen many years in the future.

Disclaimer: I teach for AoPS. We have many kids who are way ahead of school math and absolutely need our classes to develop deep problem solving skills and deal with their boredom in class. Many flourish and do really well. We also have a cohort of kids who come, but don't do their homework and gradually become lost throughout the year during class. The exams confirm this lack of understanding. Was our class a good fit for them? Maybe, but more often than not, it would have been more beneficial had they not been accelerated (pushed) so much, even if they had worked harder. We can't immediately predict at the beginning of the year who will succeed and who won't based on what we know about them. It is not true that we can predict something just based on their age. Some are old and don't do well, some are very young and do fantastic, and many others start badly but improve greatly throughout the year (while others do the exact opposite, fading out during more challenging lessons).

Kids are not automatons; they need to have some amount of inner desire to put in effort required to succeed in a class. Generally, they need some inspiration to get them motivated in the first place. I've had kids taking our algebra class in 5th (a few even in 4th!). Some of them came back the following year remarking how they're taking the same class in school and how utterly bored they are by it (because not only have they already learned it well here, they are seeing a more watered down version of it back home). While parents tried their best to get the school to put them in a different class, they were unable to get past all the rules (e.g they would not allow the kids to join the advanced math classes at their local middle school, etc). So those kids suffer through the boredom but at least know that they can continue to learn outside of school and their parents understand them.

Too many things can happen and you can't predict that it will absolutely be a good idea to take that algebra class in 7th or 8th (it could be earlier, some kids are allowed to take it earlier in school when there's ample proof they are ready, some can just test out of it and skip it, or it could even be the case for some to wait until freshman year). Many kids who enroll in outside enrichment in 2nd grade to stay "ahead of schedule", have the resources to excel and develop at a faster rate. But that doesn't mean they're absolutely ready to take advantage of it. In this area there are definitely significant numbers for whom taking school algebra (even in 7th) would feel a very remedial experience. For many others it's the right thing to do developmentally, even if they've had engaging enrichment from a young age but haven't learned it deeply.

Anonymous wrote:I'm a software engineer. I'm struggling to think of myself getting anything valuable out of a lot of those topics (algorithms? things that are parts of philosophy of computing? cybersecurity?) at a middle school level. Those are things that were mostly introduced in the 300 level classes when I was studying CS in college, and re-touched on in grad school at a deeper level. What in the world is a 7th grader going to get out of an algorithms class without the foundation of, say, boolean logic?

I'm all for getting kids to think critically about technology's role in our society and their lives, and for bringing up a generation of socially responsible programmers, but I'm really struggling to see how this proposed bill is going to do that.

It won't at all. And don't worry, they don't actually mean algorithms, philosophy/theory of computing, etc. as taught in a college course. These are not even taught in depth at a high school level, so you don't need to worry that they'll force it in middle school (although it would definitely be cool if they actually had the ability to innovatively introduce these topics such that kids actually get some understanding). The bill (copied below) is basically just advocating for introducing a mishmash of "technology" concepts in a course (and then testing them in a SOL like test). This is clearly not a great move as others stated here. There's no better way to ruin interest in a subject such as tech than to standardize it and make it required for everyone. To get around the fact that they will have very few # of qualified teachers they'd actually need to teach everyone, they would simply remove exams: "The bill provides that no such student shall be required to complete an end-of-course assessment for any such course. " This of course guarantees that kids go through the class, hate it (in most cases) due to learning and understanding nothing, then promptly forget it happened due to no tests and/or measuring whether anything was learned. But are we really surprised that this is their best idea?

The best place for kids to learn STEM will continue to be through enriching after school activities led by people who are passionate about working with and teaching kids in an outside school setting. This where most of the interesting in depth learning occurs, free from the bureaucratic grip of administrations. Their meek attempt to educate the population through force will change nothing for the kids who are truly interested who will reluctantly have to go through the motions at school, but know that they will get to do the real thing after school ends.

Students in grades six, seven, and eight; computer science or introduction to technology course required. Requires each student in grades six, seven, and eight, starting in the 2025–2026 school year, to complete at least one semester-long or year-long computer science elective course or introduction to technology course that is aligned with the appropriate Standards of Learning and may include the following content: examining systems and resources of technology, solving problems in technology, introducing microcontrollers, exploring the designed world, computing systems, networks and the Internet, cybersecurity, data and analysis, algorithms and programming, and the impacts of computing. The bill provides that no such student shall be required to complete an end-of-course assessment for any such course. The bill requires the Board of Education to amend or create Standards of Learning as necessary to implement the foregoing provisions and requires the Department of Education to confer with certain organizations to ensure that the proper training is available to the teachers of such courses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised you didn’t get a diagnosis. Everyone I know has gotten one when evaluated for adhd. Did he test at age 7? That is young so maybe the results were invalid. Also it was more than just a WISC, right?

Nothing you’ve written points anywhere close to him being a bored genius. He doesn’t sound like he’s doing any genius things. He would be reading at a high school level. Interested in a subject at an adult level. Doing advanced math...he also doesn’t sound bored.

He sounds like a very normal 7yo. Utterly normal.

His second grade teacher probably has 15 other kids just like him in class wrt work ethic and motivation. School is a weird mix of being hard and easy and boring for 7yos. That’s why most 7yos produce work like your 7yo. They want to play video games.

I think you should press for him to get into aap. You should appeal and he will get in. (I really doubt you’ll need to appeal.) I don’t think it’s going to help him much. The work is not that much harder or less boring.

I also think you should have him re-evaluated in a couple years. His scores will stabilize. And if he’s still having behavior issues he will get an ADHD diagnosis. If he doesn’t it doesn’t take much to just get one anyway. I’ve known parents to shop around for the diagnosis in order to get the 504 plan ie extra time.

OP here. He got a complete neuro-psych work up. The WISC was only a part of it.

The psych. was pretty certain that my son didn't have ADHD based on the clinical testing and review of the documents given by the school and us. He did say exactly what you did, which is if we wanted to get the diagnosis, someone would probably be happy to give it. But he cautioned that can be problematic and ethically he wouldn't assign a diagnosis when it was clear one wasn't warranted.

I will repeat myself. I don't think my kid is some savant. I am struggling with trying to find a way to get him engaged in school and to get him to meet the expectations. He's an August birthday, so he is on the young side of things. But the problems we have this year are such a diversion from what we've seen the previous two years.

How are you communicating with the Teacher? Just curious.

I would ask her to send home any incomplete or rushed work and have him redo it at home. When he complains, I would tell him that he is not doing what he needs to do at school so he will do it at home. Plain and simple.

DS does not like writing. He hates writing. In K he started going to the bathroom often enough that his Teacher grabbed me at dismissal to ask if there was an ongoing medical problem. I said no and we figured out that he was asking to go to the bathroom whenever the class was working on writing. She never told him he couldn't go to the bathroom but she did tell him that he would need to finish his writing before he could go to centers at the end of the day. The bathroom breaks went from 20 minutes to 5 minutes. He missed center time exactly once.

For your son it might be losing his play time at home a few times before he figures out that he needs to complete his work properly at school. He is smart, he will figure it out. It will also give you a chance to see if he is really struggling with something that is causing the disparity between his work and his test score. If he is struggling with it, beyond being annoyed that he has to do it, then you can discuss that with his Teacher.

We've had e-mail, phone calls, and conferences. And yes, I've asked for incomplete work to be sent home and was told that wasn't possible because she was responsible for assessing kids based on what they do in school "without parental input." I made it clear I had no intention of coaching him beyond getting him to complete the work but the request was a non-starter. On top of it, she said even if she sent home desk work, my son's assessments would reflect only what he did in the classroom and that is what she bases her assessment of him on. So, according to her, there's no point.

It's just frustrating. I appreciate some of the comments with tips, including yours. We are working at using incentives at home. It's just a bit of struggle timing wise.

How is his behavior at home? Have you tried giving him some work to emulate the school environment and see if he listens to you and does it? What about any assigned homework, does he do it relatively easily (i.e without you having to make/yell at him, etc)? I know in 2nd they don't normally like to give homework often and they just want kids to start building a habit.

Basically, do you see it as only an issue during school or are there similar behaviors at home too? At school, is his behavior the same everywhere (i.e if they occasionally rotate with other teachers at all part of the day or do "specials" such as art or language classes, etc. does he behave the same way in other classrooms?) Or is it only isolated to his main classroom and teacher?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD completed math program at Kumon McLean. She breezed through Algebras and skipped Calculus - because of Kumon.

So if my child was sitting in same algebra class with your child, my child would appear to be struggling since your child already learned or at least had exposure to material being taught in class.

I will take my kids to visit mathnasium. Guess it can’t hurt.

Yes. I teach AAP and the amount of kids who already know all of the standards I have to cover this year is insane!! They learned it outside of school two years ago and are doing way harder math outside of school. The schools won’t put them in a higher grade for math class though... so I’m stuck with 1/4 students who aren’t familiar with the standards (which is what a teacher typically expects- to teach kids the standards), 1/2 already know it all, and the other 1/4 are somewhat familiar from doing less intense math outside of school. I have pressure to challenge and engage the kids who are bored because they know it all, but my concern is catching up the students who come to school to learn math. Not everyone’s parents have spent thousands to get them way ahead in math from first grade on...it’s cool they know so much but I think having them take a test and go with the right grade for math block would make more sense. Parents so crazy competitive about TJ, but half these kids are getting far far ahead of the pacing guide doing math outside of school. I think it really effects the confidence of the kids who come to school to learn math because we have al these kids saying “this is easy” and solving problems so quickly...

I just think the schools should stop having stupid rules about sending a kid to another grade for math. Test them and if they’re doing 8th grade math outside of school- send them to an 8th grade math teacher during school.

Op here. So my kid isn’t wrong when he says he is in the lowest math group within AAP.

Do you think the kids without outside help are at a disadvantage?

I actually really value free time and play. We are Asian American. My parents prioritized education and did not value socialization.

It all depends on how well the material is taught in class. If your kids are in the lowest group yet they're understanding, are happy to learn, and bring home good grades, then it is fine. If most of these things are not happening then yes, they could be at risk of staying behind or even getting more behind. But disadvantage is a relative term, i.e with respect to what? In McLean AAP it's much more likely that kids are already ahead (or even way ahead) of the pacing. But it's not a problem unless you have some specific goal in mind (such as TJ, etc) which not all parents believe in, or have kids who are interested.

Here's the thing: In elementary school the most important thing is NOT how accelerated your kid becomes compared to others. This is a mistake many here make. Many parents end up focusing on speeding up vs just slowing down and building more depth in problem solving. When their kids get into the highest class (honors Algebra in 7th, or even earlier) they are happy and proud, but they later notice that the kids are actually struggling because their foundation is somewhat shaky and they can't handle it. I.e the kid seems to understand the basics but when it comes to a test that has a problem they haven't seen before, their brain shuts down and they bomb it. (For some it's even worse, their kid is on pace for TJ, they get in, only to realize that they're again more unprepared than they thought and it is even harder to get back on track, resulting in years of real struggle).

So to answer your question, kids in elementary definitely need to play and have time to be creative, socialize with their friends, and have time to explore their interests and find their passion. If they're unhappy in class, it would be a good idea to sign them up for outside help (assuming you're unable to provide that yourself at home). There are many options as discussed earlier in this thread, and not all one size fits all. For example, Kumon is known to emphasize an extreme focus on repetition, which may work well for some kids but feel like awful and boring drudgery for others. On the other side of the spectrum AoPS has the deepest problem solving curriculum that I know of, and focuses on challenging the kids who are bored in school by teaching them to solve problems they have not seen before. If a kid is struggling with concepts and needs regular tutoring AoPS is often not a good fit, but for other kids it's exactly what they're looking for. And the numerous other programs such as Mathnasium, etc. are somewhere in between. You'll have to explore some of them to figure out what is right for your kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Want to see something sad? Go to the main page on the website, e.g https://govsalaries.com/ then scroll down to the lower left hand bottom where it shows the top 10 salaries found in this database (which btw has over 50 million records). Notice the salaries of the top ten, and see if you can figure out who they are (hint: I had no idea so had to google their names before I saw the pattern).

Public education priorities (and taxpayer money), may you R.I.P

You don't know who Urban Meyer or Nick Saban is?

NP
I would think most people wouldn't know who they are.

Me neither, I don't watch football.