Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter

The problem isn't top schools. Places such as MIT and Stanford wouldn't really care about AP classes anyway. They're looking to differentiate among the large applicant pool; someone who took 2 more APs than someone else doesn't really look anymore impressive or different.

The problem is the number of students and parents who want to go to only the top schools and believe that they will stand out via perfect grades and APs (they will to some degree, but that's not nearly enough for those schools, due to the far larger # of qualified applicants vs acceptances). By pushing quantity vs quality, parents and teachers are removing the joy of learning and curiosity from education.

Parents need to step back, remove the pressure to "get ahead" to college, and first and foremost focus on whether their child is actually learning valuable things. Getting into college is just a first step; excelling there is a completely different story.

Yup. All of this.

People tend to put down the small liberal arts colleges but there are advantages to being at a school with a small Teacher to Student ratio where the Teachers can evaluate their students strengths and weaknesses and help guide the student to improve in areas that they need to improve while encouraging their strengths as well. The emphasis on prestige schools, TJ or the Big 3 Privates in high school or the Ivies or top Engineering schools make it hard for students to take classes that make sense for their learning style and pace. You can be a good math student and not take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade.

We have weaponized education so much so that we are sacrificing kids by demanding that the perform at a high level in all areas so that they might have a chance of attending a prestige school because that prize is more important then the kids actual education.

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter

The problem isn't top schools. Places such as MIT and Stanford wouldn't really care about AP classes anyway. They're looking to differentiate among the large applicant pool; someone who took 2 more APs than someone else doesn't really look anymore impressive or different.

The problem is the number of students and parents who want to go to only the top schools and believe that they will stand out via perfect grades and APs (they will to some degree, but that's not nearly enough for those schools, due to the far larger # of qualified applicants vs acceptances). By pushing quantity vs quality, parents and teachers are removing the joy of learning and curiosity from education.

Parents need to step back, remove the pressure to "get ahead" to college, and first and foremost focus on whether their child is actually learning valuable things. Getting into college is just a first step; excelling there is a completely different story.

Yup. All of this.

People tend to put down the small liberal arts colleges but there are advantages to being at a school with a small Teacher to Student ratio where the Teachers can evaluate their students strengths and weaknesses and help guide the student to improve in areas that they need to improve while encouraging their strengths as well. The emphasis on prestige schools, TJ or the Big 3 Privates in high school or the Ivies or top Engineering schools make it hard for students to take classes that make sense for their learning style and pace. You can be a good math student and not take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade.

We have weaponized education so much so that we are sacrificing kids by demanding that the perform at a high level in all areas so that they might have a chance of attending a prestige school because that prize is more important then the kids actual education.

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter

The problem isn't top schools. Places such as MIT and Stanford wouldn't really care about AP classes anyway. They're looking to differentiate among the large applicant pool; someone who took 2 more APs than someone else doesn't really look anymore impressive or different.

The problem is the number of students and parents who want to go to only the top schools and believe that they will stand out via perfect grades and APs (they will to some degree, but that's not nearly enough for those schools, due to the far larger # of qualified applicants vs acceptances). By pushing quantity vs quality, parents and teachers are removing the joy of learning and curiosity from education.

Parents need to step back, remove the pressure to "get ahead" to college, and first and foremost focus on whether their child is actually learning valuable things. Getting into college is just a first step; excelling there is a completely different story.

Props to you for two things:

1) nailing this right on the head

2) being the only person I've seen on this board in 5+ years to actually use a profile and not post anonymously

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter

The problem isn't top schools. Places such as MIT and Stanford wouldn't really care about AP classes anyway. They're looking to differentiate among the large applicant pool; someone who took 2 more APs than someone else doesn't really look anymore impressive or different.

The problem is the number of students and parents who want to go to only the top schools and believe that they will stand out via perfect grades and APs (they will to some degree, but that's not nearly enough for those schools, due to the far larger # of qualified applicants vs acceptances). By pushing quantity vs quality, parents and teachers are removing the joy of learning and curiosity from education.

Parents need to step back, remove the pressure to "get ahead" to college, and first and foremost focus on whether their child is actually learning valuable things. Getting into college is just a first step; excelling there is a completely different story.

Yup. All of this.

People tend to put down the small liberal arts colleges but there are advantages to being at a school with a small Teacher to Student ratio where the Teachers can evaluate their students strengths and weaknesses and help guide the student to improve in areas that they need to improve while encouraging their strengths as well. The emphasis on prestige schools, TJ or the Big 3 Privates in high school or the Ivies or top Engineering schools make it hard for students to take classes that make sense for their learning style and pace. You can be a good math student and not take Algebra in 6th or 7th grade.

We have weaponized education so much so that we are sacrificing kids by demanding that the perform at a high level in all areas so that they might have a chance of attending a prestige school because that prize is more important then the kids actual education.

Yep, and this is a problem at TJ with huge numbers of seniors applying to UVA, VT, etc. and being surprised they cannot get in. Their solid education allows them many many great opportunities to excel at many other colleges in the country with excellent programs (to your point, there are some liberal arts schools with incredible undergrad mathematics programs, etc). But the pressure to do what other seniors are doing (and possibly not enough influence by their college counselors to show them more varied choices), makes it almost groupthink behavior.

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

If that is true*, it's more of a reflection of the sub-par teaching and math curriculum from K-6. In some other countries, it's pretty standard for everyone to take Algebra in 7th.

*It's not true. Some person keeps claiming that the kids who are accelerated more perform worse in subsequent math classes, but this person has no evidence. At least in LCPS, the kids taking Algebra in 6th outperform the other kids in all math classes.

In specifically what countries is it standard for EVERYONE to take Algebra in 7th?

Russia, for one. It's standard in grade 7 for kids to do integrated Algebra and Geometry.
https://www.emis.de/data/projects/reference-levels/EMS_RUSSIA.pdf

Poland also teaches Algebra earlier than the US.

Anonymous wrote:In some public districts, it is the only area where kids are ability grouped and getting in the higher math class tends to make your cohort for all classes the kids who are more serious about school, do the homework, engage in class discussion and have less disruptive behavior (generally). Once you are on that track, it carries through to high school. It can be very difficult to learn in a classroom with a lot of behavior problems and disinterested classmates.

It's not always about Algebra.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

Welcome to 'Murican public school education.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

Welcome to 'Murican public school education.

+1. Colleague went to another state. His son took algebra placement test as a sophomore (having done Algebra in 7th grade in the great MCPS). Guess what? Very bright kid - parents were Ivy and SLAC - had to take Algebra all over again. There is a great argument that most kid brains are not developed enough for the abstract thinking needed to succeed. I know Lake Wobegon effect around here...because just ‘cause you are in Potomac doesn’t mean your brain is any different...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

Welcome to 'Murican public school education.

+1. Colleague went to another state. His son took algebra placement test as a sophomore (having done Algebra in 7th grade in the great MCPS). Guess what? Very bright kid - parents were Ivy and SLAC - had to take Algebra all over again. There is a great argument that most kid brains are not developed enough for the abstract thinking needed to succeed. I know Lake Wobegon effect around here...because just ‘cause you are in Potomac doesn’t mean your brain is any different...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it.

How is that possible? I recall doing them sophmore year of high school.

Weird. Back in the day, we were doing formal proofs starting in either Algebra I or Geometry. Proofs were a pretty standard part of math instruction. If proofs are no longer being taught in high school math classes, then that's a great example of how modern high school math has been slowed down and watered down.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

If that is true*, it's more of a reflection of the sub-par teaching and math curriculum from K-6. In some other countries, it's pretty standard for everyone to take Algebra in 7th.

*It's not true. Some person keeps claiming that the kids who are accelerated more perform worse in subsequent math classes, but this person has no evidence. At least in LCPS, the kids taking Algebra in 6th outperform the other kids in all math classes.

In specifically what countries is it standard for EVERYONE to take Algebra in 7th?

Russia, for one. It's standard in grade 7 for kids to do integrated Algebra and Geometry.
https://www.emis.de/data/projects/reference-levels/EMS_RUSSIA.pdf

Poland also teaches Algebra earlier than the US.

Funny. I think VDOE was proposing something similar...

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

"The primary difference is that the curricular education is designed to give students many tools to apply to straightforward specific problems. Rather than learning more and more tools, avid students are better off learning how to take tools they have and applying them to complex problems. "

yes, this, 1000X this. when our kids started school in america my DH and i realized that they are simply not doing hard problems. at any given "tool level", as the article put it there (e.g. knowledge of certain concepts and algorithms), they do loads of extremely simple problems, then move and introduce the next thing.

Yep, in many old school textbooks in other countries those were denoted as "exercises" to distinguish them as more straightforward from the later questions which were indeed called "problems". The idea being an exercise is testing your basic understanding of the material taught, vs a problem which is challenging your ability to use the ideas in the material to solve something you don't initially know how to do (but can work out via some amount of thought).

In virtually all of America's K-12 math classrooms, there are no problems to solve, only exercises. The music analogy of playing scales over and over again and seeing no songs.

DP. There are also old textbooks from this country like that, btw.

School has changed a lot since when we were kids and especially in the last decade or two, throughout all of K-12.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

If that is true*, it's more of a reflection of the sub-par teaching and math curriculum from K-6. In some other countries, it's pretty standard for everyone to take Algebra in 7th.

*It's not true. Some person keeps claiming that the kids who are accelerated more perform worse in subsequent math classes, but this person has no evidence. At least in LCPS, the kids taking Algebra in 6th outperform the other kids in all math classes.

In specifically what countries is it standard for EVERYONE to take Algebra in 7th?