Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it.

How is that possible? I recall doing them sophmore year of high school.

Weird. Back in the day, we were doing formal proofs starting in either Algebra I or Geometry. Proofs were a pretty standard part of math instruction. If proofs are no longer being taught in high school math classes, then that's a great example of how modern high school math has been slowed down and watered down.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

I agree, but the problem is mostly with the schools. The curriculum is pretty slow and watered down, so smart kids are going to be bored and unchallenged. Schools can either provide more rigorous coursework and problem solving within the grade level math class, or they can accelerate the top kids. It's much easier to accelerate the kids and not provide the deeper work, so that's what the schools choose to do.

If the classwork in AAP looked more like Beast Academy/AoPS and less like gen ed math given one year earlier, there would be fewer parents clamoring to get their kids skipped ahead.

For what it's worth, the best teacher my DS had used a book of very challenging, outside the box math reasoning problems with the most advanced kids in the class. My DS was not at all bored, even though he already knew the base material being taught that year. My DD had a different teacher, and the teacher's solution for providing enrichment for the most advanced students was to just stick them on ST Math for longer periods. DD was eager to jump up to Algebra in 7th, because she was so bored in 5th and 6th.

So.... fewer is probably correct, because there are some who are genuinely concerned for their kids' boredom, but that doesn't account for the huge number of parents who seek acceleration for reasons of prestige and FOMO.

is it FOMO or is it wanting to keep options open? If Jane and Jill and Jan are in a class and your kid isn't, and everyone progresses on that track, by the time the kids are applying for college I think the fear is that Jane and Jill and Jan will have an advantage

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it.

How is that possible? I recall doing them sophmore year of high school.

Weird. Back in the day, we were doing formal proofs starting in either Algebra I or Geometry. Proofs were a pretty standard part of math instruction. If proofs are no longer being taught in high school math classes, then that's a great example of how modern high school math has been slowed down and watered down.

Proofs are not taught anymore in K-12, other than what passes for a proof in geometry class (i.e the "2 column proof" which is a huge crutch that mainly hinders student's development).

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it.

How is that possible? I recall doing them sophmore year of high school.

Weird. Back in the day, we were doing formal proofs starting in either Algebra I or Geometry. Proofs were a pretty standard part of math instruction. If proofs are no longer being taught in high school math classes, then that's a great example of how modern high school math has been slowed down and watered down.

Proofs are not taught anymore in K-12, other than what passes for a proof in geometry class (i.e the "2 column proof" which is a huge crutch that mainly hinders student's development).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

I agree, but the problem is mostly with the schools. The curriculum is pretty slow and watered down, so smart kids are going to be bored and unchallenged. Schools can either provide more rigorous coursework and problem solving within the grade level math class, or they can accelerate the top kids. It's much easier to accelerate the kids and not provide the deeper work, so that's what the schools choose to do.

If the classwork in AAP looked more like Beast Academy/AoPS and less like gen ed math given one year earlier, there would be fewer parents clamoring to get their kids skipped ahead.

For what it's worth, the best teacher my DS had used a book of very challenging, outside the box math reasoning problems with the most advanced kids in the class. My DS was not at all bored, even though he already knew the base material being taught that year. My DD had a different teacher, and the teacher's solution for providing enrichment for the most advanced students was to just stick them on ST Math for longer periods. DD was eager to jump up to Algebra in 7th, because she was so bored in 5th and 6th.

So.... fewer is probably correct, because there are some who are genuinely concerned for their kids' boredom, but that doesn't account for the huge number of parents who seek acceleration for reasons of prestige and FOMO.

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

pettifogger wrote:

Proofs are not taught anymore in K-12, other than what passes for a proof in geometry class (i.e the "2 column proof" which is a huge crutch that mainly hinders student's development).

Anonymous wrote:

If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

"The primary difference is that the curricular education is designed to give students many tools to apply to straightforward specific problems. Rather than learning more and more tools, avid students are better off learning how to take tools they have and applying them to complex problems. "

yes, this, 1000X this. when our kids started school in america my DH and i realized that they are simply not doing hard problems. at any given "tool level", as the article put it there (e.g. knowledge of certain concepts and algorithms), they do loads of extremely simple problems, then move and introduce the next thing.

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

"The primary difference is that the curricular education is designed to give students many tools to apply to straightforward specific problems. Rather than learning more and more tools, avid students are better off learning how to take tools they have and applying them to complex problems. "

yes, this, 1000X this. when our kids started school in america my DH and i realized that they are simply not doing hard problems. at any given "tool level", as the article put it there (e.g. knowledge of certain concepts and algorithms), they do loads of extremely simple problems, then move and introduce the next thing.

Yep, in many old school textbooks in other countries those were denoted as "exercises" to distinguish them as more straightforward from the later questions which were indeed called "problems". The idea being an exercise is testing your basic understanding of the material taught, vs a problem which is challenging your ability to use the ideas in the material to solve something you don't initially know how to do (but can work out via some amount of thought).

In virtually all of America's K-12 math classrooms, there are no problems to solve, only exercises. The music analogy of playing scales over and over again and seeing no songs.

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter

The problem isn't top schools. Places such as MIT and Stanford wouldn't really care about AP classes anyway. They're looking to differentiate among the large applicant pool; someone who took 2 more APs than someone else doesn't really look anymore impressive or different.

The problem is the number of students and parents who want to go to only the top schools and believe that they will stand out via perfect grades and APs (they will to some degree, but that's not nearly enough for those schools, due to the far larger # of qualified applicants vs acceptances). By pushing quantity vs quality, parents and teachers are removing the joy of learning and curiosity from education.

Parents need to step back, remove the pressure to "get ahead" to college, and first and foremost focus on whether their child is actually learning valuable things. Getting into college is just a first step; excelling there is a completely different story.

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

Americans like to rush "smart" kids through math so that they get to complicated concepts sooner. However, they rarely do challenging problems so most of the progress is illusionary. I went to a top school in the US and nobody in my class was familiar with mathematical proofs, like, they literally never did it. Now, in my own country kids do proofs starting in fifth grade. But it is quite possible that those very same Americans wrote their first integral earlier than I did. But before starting on integrals I had to do a lot of difficulty problems with limits, epsilon delta type problems, proofs of theorems etc.

Exactly this. The AP race to calculus is pretty much a sham because the kids have no problem solving abilities and can barely handle the algebra to compute integrals.

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/avoid-the-calculus-trap

If MIT and Stanford and Cal were to say that we don't care about the highest class taken, but here's an Algebra test and you better get 100% if you want to be considered, the rush to calc would vanish. That will never happen, and those kids know they can retake calculus in college so other than the A+ and the 5, high school AP doesn't matter

The problem isn't top schools. Places such as MIT and Stanford wouldn't really care about AP classes anyway. They're looking to differentiate among the large applicant pool; someone who took 2 more APs than someone else doesn't really look anymore impressive or different.

The problem is the number of students and parents who want to go to only the top schools and believe that they will stand out via perfect grades and APs (they will to some degree, but that's not nearly enough for those schools, due to the far larger # of qualified applicants vs acceptances). By pushing quantity vs quality, parents and teachers are removing the joy of learning and curiosity from education.

Parents need to step back, remove the pressure to "get ahead" to college, and first and foremost focus on whether their child is actually learning valuable things. Getting into college is just a first step; excelling there is a completely different story.