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Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:For parents who have their children in either of the programs, what do you like about the program? My DD is in RSM, but wondering if AoPS would be better.
Please refrain from turning this into a diatribe about how coaching and prepping is unnecessary--you know nothing about why we're doing it so don't bother with the negativity--and stick to the original question being asked, otherwise I will ask JSteele to remove your comment. Thanks for playing by the forum rules!
I can speak for AoPS since I teach there but I don't know much about RSM, although I've heard that it is also a good program. AoPS is very rigorous and has a high ceiling for challenging problems with the goal of stretching even the strongest students in a classroom. Do you have specific questions/issues?
Does AoPS test in order to see which class a child belongs in? Or do you start with the grade you're in, irrespective of knowledge? Also, anything you can share about how the math curriculum is built at AoPS? (Are you a math teacher at AoPS?)
Yes, I teach at the local campus; the placement is not quite based on grade, but more on current math level. You can schedule an appointment with the director and they will give the child a diagnostic test to figure out which class would be the suggested fit. You can read more about the curriculum on the aops.com website which also also has links to the Beast Academy curriculum for elementary school students.
Anonymous wrote:For parents who have their children in either of the programs, what do you like about the program? My DD is in RSM, but wondering if AoPS would be better.
Please refrain from turning this into a diatribe about how coaching and prepping is unnecessary--you know nothing about why we're doing it so don't bother with the negativity--and stick to the original question being asked, otherwise I will ask JSteele to remove your comment. Thanks for playing by the forum rules!
I can speak for AoPS since I teach there but I don't know much about RSM, although I've heard that it is also a good program. AoPS is very rigorous and has a high ceiling for challenging problems with the goal of stretching even the strongest students in a classroom. Do you have specific questions/issues?
Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:1. What makes you think OP's kid is currently in 5th or 6th? They could have done IM in 6th several years ago and now be a sophomore debating between AB/BC or BC/MV.
2. I'm a college professor, and I've never seen anyone regret knowing *too much* math. Those who are weak in math are often stifled-- they avoid taking courses/majors/graduate programs that they would otherwise prefer because they feel constrained on the math front.
It's true that many kids who take BC or MV will repeat the course in college, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth pushing themselves at the start. They'll come away from the college course with greater mastery and understanding than if they were learning every topic for the very first time. They will find the courses easier, too, which is likely to mean they won't fall down to a lower math trajectory because they feel like they can't keep up with peers.
Don't get me wrong-- no one NEEDS MV before college. But it's baffling that people would discourage kids from doing it if it is within reach.
No parent of a high schooler would care in the least bit to discuss an early middle school math class from years back... IM has no bearing on post calculus math electives in high school, such as Linear Algebra or MV. While I agree with you that it would be nice to see more kids get through more advanced topics before college, in reality it isn't likely because many stop after calculus due to multiple reasons (including a shaky foundation in math, and/or not interested enough in taking higher level math senior year, etc).
The real question is why are other mathematics courses offered in high school? For example courses such as discrete mathematics, number theory, probability, combinatorics, learning how to write proofs in mathematics, etc. These are so critical to developing solid logic and reasoning skills, (in addition to being fundamental for computers and computer science). One of the main barriers to hopeful computer science majors is discrete math, and it's one of the big reasons they end up switching away from CS in college.
Could you speak more to your second point? I have a child who is in Calc BC in 10th and wants to go into CS. There will be flexibility in deciding what to take after Calc, so what do you recommend and why? (thanks, from a liberal arts mom)
A good grounding in discrete math (currently none of which happens in high school, outside of programs like Blair), is great to have to comfortably succeed in a competitive CS program. It's not always the case, but it makes it much easier to do really well in CS. It's hard to say what to recommend based on your given info, but it's promising that your child is done with BC calc with 2 years of high school to go. If you're not at Blair, you're unlikely to get any discrete math in school (multivariable calc is not helpful and probably not even well done/understood at the high school level. Linear algebra if offered is useful, but I also suspect it's not that well covered in a high school course).
Have they taken any CS classes yet, such as programming, or AP CS? CS classes try to cover some discrete math, but again there is no time to do it well because they have to focus on the programming skills. They will have to fill these gaps outside of school. There are numerous resources online, here are some of the ones I can highly recommend based on experience and a few notes about them.
Intro courses:
- AOPS Introduction to Counting/Probability (online course from AOPS, excellent introduction to discrete math, very interesting problems)
- AOPS Intro to Number Theory (same as above, excellent)
Intermediate/Advanced courses:
- AOPS Intermediate Counting/Probability (This has fantastic coverage of many discrete math topics one encounters in college/CS/math, along with many challenging problems. This would be a follow up to the first intro course)
- edX Introduction to Probability (https://www.edx.org/course/probability-the-science-of-uncertainty-and-data) This is an applied probability theory course with really fantastic lectures and instructor, however it can be a bit theory heavy thus feel a little dry. This is equivalent to the live MIT course, and definitely requires a very heavy work effort, 10-12+ hours a week.
Self study:
- Try working through math contest problems such as the AMC 10 and AMC 12. All the past contests with full solutions are available for free on the AOPS website. Try all counting and probability questions you see as a diagnosis. Math contest problems are generally fantastic in developing creativity and reasoning skills, and the problems are very interesting.
- Learn how to think and come up with and write proofs. This is a very important skill to have to develop mathematical maturity and quantitative reasoning, (and critical for going into a competitive math or CS program). While they do teach it from the ground up in college, many students feel overwhelmed and/or behind if they don't have any experience having done it in high school or earlier. It can take time to develop intuition for how to prove things and it definitely takes practice. Sadly, it is not taught well at all in K12 (It's supposed to be taught in school in geometry class, but it's generally not done right in most geometry classes. As a result, kids have no idea how to prove things, even if they're in the highest level of math, i.e Calc BC, etc. This is because K12 mathematics is almost completely focused on calculations vs building mathematical reasoning).
The AOPS books tied to the above courses I mentioned have enough proofs in them, but here are a few others that I liked (and there's obviously way more online resources, I'm sure others can chime in).
- Bridge to Higher Mathematics (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055750337X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1#customerReviews) - Very interesting problems that draw you in, and very readable and accessible.
- Book of Proof (https://www.amazon.com/Book-Proof-Richard-H-Hammack/dp/0989472132/ref=sr_1_1?crid=8M9RABNTZY3H&keywords=book+of+proof&qid=1580849223&s=books&sprefix=book+of+proof%2Cstripbooks%2C162&sr=1-1) - Has excellent coverage of all types of proof techniques, with many practice problems.
- AOPS Intro to Geometry book (https://artofproblemsolving.com/store/item/intro-geometry) - Probably the best geometry intro book I've ever read. If done well, not only do kids learn geometry, but also really learn how to reason well and prove things (which is arguably way more important for life than the actual geometry itself, even though the geometry problems in the book are beautiful). One critical thing to note is that the proofs in this book are all in essay/free form format, which is how proofs are written in real life (not the fabricated "two column" proofs that are found in almost all K12 geometry books used in school). The two column format is used as a "crutch" to help kids latch on to proofs, but actually really hinders their thinking because it prohibits them from creatively expressing their argument (imagine having to write an essay in a constricted two column format). A perfect analogy is how a calculator over reliance in schools hinders the development of number sense.
- Lockhart's Lament (https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf) - This last short essay is for you and other parents. I cannot even begin to express how it poignantly describes the (rather sad) state of mathematics educations in K-12 schools and I think it really should be required reading for everyone.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:1 had one kid take functions and one not take it. They areboth fine. It’s a very very very hard class.
I'm getting confused here. Isn't true that Functions and Pre-Calculus cover the same stuff at different speed? Are you suggesting that Functions cover more in depth?
There's another recent thread on this, it doesn't appear that there is any extra depth, just more acceleration. In that sense it would not be worth doing it over the other path unless kids can handle it without too much difficulty. In that case it would make sense in order to allow room for an extra semester of the fun upper level electives before graduation (e.g Complex Analysis, etc).
There is more depth as well as acceleration. -- F(x)s mom
+1
~Another Functions mom
According to Peter and the current functions teacher, there is only acceleration. As a functions parent, I know very well what DC is learning in the class, but have no way of knowing how the pre-calculus class goes, so I can't give first hand comparisons.
This makes sense. One can't normally speed up the course by 50% (3 semesters covered in 2) without also sacrificing depth. But obviously a magnet course shouldn't be watered down, so the only way to get it done is to increase the amount of homework by 50% as well. There's no surprise to what others have said regarding workload, etc. The bottom line is kids shouldn't take this course for "pride" or similar type of reasons. They should also not worry about missing anything, as the same material is covered in the 3 semester version. The only reason it makes sense is if kids already know some of the earlier material and can handle the really fast pace so that they can have an extra semester for upper electives.
pettifogger wrote:Anonymous wrote:1. What makes you think OP's kid is currently in 5th or 6th? They could have done IM in 6th several years ago and now be a sophomore debating between AB/BC or BC/MV.
2. I'm a college professor, and I've never seen anyone regret knowing *too much* math. Those who are weak in math are often stifled-- they avoid taking courses/majors/graduate programs that they would otherwise prefer because they feel constrained on the math front.
It's true that many kids who take BC or MV will repeat the course in college, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth pushing themselves at the start. They'll come away from the college course with greater mastery and understanding than if they were learning every topic for the very first time. They will find the courses easier, too, which is likely to mean they won't fall down to a lower math trajectory because they feel like they can't keep up with peers.
Don't get me wrong-- no one NEEDS MV before college. But it's baffling that people would discourage kids from doing it if it is within reach.
No parent of a high schooler would care in the least bit to discuss an early middle school math class from years back... IM has no bearing on post calculus math electives in high school, such as Linear Algebra or MV. While I agree with you that it would be nice to see more kids get through more advanced topics before college, in reality it isn't likely because many stop after calculus due to multiple reasons (including a shaky foundation in math, and/or not interested enough in taking higher level math senior year, etc).
The real question is why aren't other mathematics courses offered in high school? For example courses such as discrete mathematics, number theory, probability, combinatorics, learning how to write proofs in mathematics, etc. These are so critical to developing solid logic and reasoning skills, (in addition to being fundamental for computers and computer science). One of the main barriers to hopeful computer science majors is discrete math, and it's one of the big reasons they end up switching away from CS in college.
Oops, correction.
Anonymous wrote:1. What makes you think OP's kid is currently in 5th or 6th? They could have done IM in 6th several years ago and now be a sophomore debating between AB/BC or BC/MV.
2. I'm a college professor, and I've never seen anyone regret knowing *too much* math. Those who are weak in math are often stifled-- they avoid taking courses/majors/graduate programs that they would otherwise prefer because they feel constrained on the math front.
It's true that many kids who take BC or MV will repeat the course in college, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth pushing themselves at the start. They'll come away from the college course with greater mastery and understanding than if they were learning every topic for the very first time. They will find the courses easier, too, which is likely to mean they won't fall down to a lower math trajectory because they feel like they can't keep up with peers.
Don't get me wrong-- no one NEEDS MV before college. But it's baffling that people would discourage kids from doing it if it is within reach.
No parent of a high schooler would care in the least bit to discuss an early middle school math class from years back... IM has no bearing on post calculus math electives in high school, such as Linear Algebra or MV. While I agree with you that it would be nice to see more kids get through more advanced topics before college, in reality it isn't likely because many stop after calculus due to multiple reasons (including a shaky foundation in math, and/or not interested enough in taking higher level math senior year, etc).
The real question is why are other mathematics courses offered in high school? For example courses such as discrete mathematics, number theory, probability, combinatorics, learning how to write proofs in mathematics, etc. These are so critical to developing solid logic and reasoning skills, (in addition to being fundamental for computers and computer science). One of the main barriers to hopeful computer science majors is discrete math, and it's one of the big reasons they end up switching away from CS in college.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Looking for an easy elective to balance the hard AP courses for junior year, is sports medicine an easy elective? is there any HW?
Why isn't Junior figuring out this for himself? Ugh. We are raising children who cannot function in the world by themselves as adults because they are never required to do so! Please let your children figure this out for themselves and LET THEM FAIL. It will benefit them in the long run.
Agreed, but just maybe OP is the sophomore
Anonymous wrote:It looks like this IM in 6th pathway leads to calculus in 11th grade and then another year of post-calculus math. I guess some kids split up AB/BC (or in our case in BCC they do the other IB courses). But I also see they offer a DE course of multivariable calculus and linear algebra. Is that something a lot of kids do? BCC parents (or parents in other schools that offer it), are you finding that kids are sticking with it all the way through? Since there are quite a number of kids in IM would that mean that 60-70 (or in some schools 100) kids a year are doing those DE courses? Wow.
It's 6th grade; you can't project that far in advance with any kind of accuracy. Many kids will definitely not take the highest math class offered at the school. Most kids that are not interested and do not love math but have to take something beyond Calc, will likely take a Stats course in lieu of advanced math electives.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:1 had one kid take functions and one not take it. They areboth fine. It’s a very very very hard class.
I'm getting confused here. Isn't true that Functions and Pre-Calculus cover the same stuff at different speed? Are you suggesting that Functions cover more in depth?
There's another recent thread on this, it doesn't appear that there is any extra depth, just more acceleration. In that sense it would not be worth doing it over the other path unless kids can handle it without too much difficulty. In that case it would make sense in order to allow room for an extra semester of the fun upper level electives before graduation (e.g Complex Analysis, etc).
Anonymous wrote:We are at a crossroads with needing new computers in our house and trying not to overbuy. Would prefer to get a new iPad for sake of variety in what we the adults have. I have a desktop that I would prefer not to share with 2nd grader doing lexia and dream box. Mostly because I prefer for her screen time to happen when I can also work on my work. Will an iPad with keyboard get us through the next few years?
As long as a mouse works with it, then it could be ok. I believe Lexia and Dreambox definitely need it.
Why not get a cheap netbook instead? I'm not sure how much support iPads have with regard to other software, programming, educational software, etc. A real computer for them to work on would be a plus.
Anonymous wrote:To the OP:
1. I thought all Blair Magnet students were invited to attend the summer Functions camp. If somehow that changed or you did not get an invitation, I would contact the magnet office. It may be in small print on some document.
2. Functions is literally the first class which was genuinely hard and clearly designed for students gifted in a particular area, in this case competition mathematics. Competition mathematics is not all math, it's just a subtype of math achievement. It's not theoretical math, it's not proofs, it's not engineering. It's just this one aspect of mathematics that some people are really good at. Like you, I was conditioned by years and years in school that the biggest issue was the barrier of getting in. In this rare case, it's actually handling the work that is the limiting reagent. The reason the class is hard is twofold: lectures move very fast through complex concepts, and exams expect you to solve problems that have never been introduced in class. Students actually have to produce original work in a timed exam. For those of you with math background, this is a baby Putnam-type class taught at a High School level with a 90% grade expectation to get an A.
3. All the replies here are not meant to discourage your child. By all means, take the functions summer camp and then the class itself if invited. Prepare your child that 1/3 of the kids transfer to precalc, and judging by the replies here probably closer to 1/2 should transfer. Consider your child's and your family's goals out of Blair, your tolerance for not getting straight A's, etc. Then you will rationally know what to do.
Do you have specific evidence for the claim that the class and/or curriculum is about math contests, and/or like a "baby Putnam" ? I'm curious because I'm pretty sure all the math contest training is being done on their math team..
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My daughter seems to understand what they cover in her honors geometry class, but the tests seems to consist of these "challenge" problems that take what they've learned and have a little twist - either something they learned back in the beginning of class that you didn't recently cover that you need to use to solve the question or it just combines or words the problem in a different way.
Can anyone share some resources where my daughter might be able to practice with some tougher problems than they have for class or for homework to try to get him thinking like this for his tests? Happy to hear from parents or teachers!
Arts of Problem Solving Geometry book
Alcumus, which is completely free (and also made by Art of Problem Solving). It has thousands of challenging geometry problems, all with full solutions and an adaptive algorithm that lets the user level up (or down) depending on how they do on each problem. Many of the problems are referenced to specific sections in their Geometry textbook, so they complement each other very well. You can also choose a specific geomtry subtopic to focus on (for example Similar triangles, or Pythagorean theorem, etc). This is really useful for studying for school tests, or even training for math competitions. Alcumus will only give problems related to that topic (while still adaptively adjusting the problem difficulty within that topic).
A small note of caution though: For someone who likes math, Alcumus can get very addictive.
Forget any middle school grades. Her motivation level is the most important thing that will matter for high school. Also having a basic ability to stay organized, but definitely intrinsic motivation is the #1 thing that she'll need to acquire at some point (hopefully during middle school).
Anonymous wrote:We're currently trying to decide whether our DD is going to stay in her private school or switch to MCPS for Kindergarten. Private is a stretch for us, but we want to support our kid as much as we can. My main concerns are two-fold: the class sizes (moving from ~15 to 30 is a huge jump) and differentiation. DD is reading and doing basic math (addition and subtraction of numbers up to 20). Both DH and I excelled at math as kids -- I was the kid that worked ahead in my workbooks and taught myself math to the point I ended up in algebra at 6th grade (also the only girl in my calc bc class in high school, but I digress). DH was similar and we're seeing the same thing in DD.
I don't want her to get bored or be forced to stay on pace with everyone else if she's beyond what is being taught. I know about the HGCs and the testing in 3rd grade (and the competition for that), but I'm wondering what is done for differentiation before that.
(and yes, before the trolls come out -- I know every parent thinks their kid is gifted, yadayada, that's not what I'm asking about. I just know how I was in school and I see the same things in DD).
You know your daughter best, but if you truly believe she will continue to self teach, move at a fast pace, and not be able to handle boredom, then you should definitely not rely on MCPS for enrichment. As others said, (outside of the competitive CES/Magnet programs), I don't believe MCPS will fully appease her very much since they won't go that far beyond the classroom, or do too much depth in a topic even in "enrichment" sessions.
On the other hand I wouldn't suggest doing private at that cost either, especially if as you said, you're not comfortable with the cost. I know I definitely wouldn't have done it for my son at that age and for that cost unless I had a large budget, (or had no choice due to horrible public schools, which is not the case here).
I think you should try public school and see how she does. You can always do outside enrichment, especially in math. If you do want to "push" her ahead, you have lots of great choices for programs, as others suggested. Just don't overdo it or try to force stuff, at this age it can easily backfire and they can lose interest. Pick something where she is not only challenged, but enjoying learning new things. Don't try to do too much and don't be afraid to back off if she needs a break, keeping her interest is much more important than pushing toward some arbitrary level. Also be wary of the chicken and egg problem with how far ahead she is, it's likely going to be inversely related to how she feels about the same subject in school. But again, if she wants more you can't really stop that just because of school. If she gets far ahead you may indeed have to join the competition for the magnet programs if you choose to stay in public, or even homeschool as a rare last resort.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I have a 5th grader and a 7th grader, both in Algebra I Honors in FCPS. The 7th grader is a normal, smart kid who is similar to all of the other smart kids in FCPS. The 5th grader is way beyond that and is bored in the Algebra class. Kids who are more than one year by FCPS are pretty rare, since FCPS doesn't like skipping kids.
That’s not saying much.
Yes. If FCPS is accepting the top 25 percent of a general population. Less than 10 percent of those kids accepted are even actually gifted (top 2 percent) statistically speaking. So maybe 9 kids out of every 100 aap kids. Sometimes will do stand out.
That's the point, though. People have been arguing about whether kids need to sit in a classroom every day to learn Algebra I Honors, and whether a class like AoPS could cover all of the same material. The normal, smart kids, who are the vast majority of AAP kids, probably need to be in that classroom every day taking FCPS Algebra. AoPS would move too quickly, not give enough repetition, and make too many intuitive leaps for the regular bright kids. It still might be valuable supplementation, but couldn't stand alone for these kids.
The small fraction of kids who are at the top of AAP would be fine with just the AoPS class. FCPS will still make those kids sit in a classroom for FCPS Algebra, but it won't benefit the kid in any way. It's just another bureaucratic hoop that the kids will need to jump through. I bet the AoPS teacher posting here can tell the difference between the 4th, 5th, and 6th graders in Algebra who are highly gifted and will always be far ahead of the FCPS curriculum vs. the ones who just have pushy parents and are only ahead from all of the hothousing.
Yes, this is exactly right. In general I've seen that the really young kids in our classrooms tend to outperform and/or be near the top in our classes. (Not always, but most of the time). And these are exactly the kids who wouldn't be allowed to take the equivalent class in school at the same time because of age. By the time they would let them, it would be a ridiculous waste of time for them and likely even hurt their motivation (it would be fine of course if they actually alowed them to work at their own level and pace in class but sometimes they refuse to do that due to logistics, strict rules, no computers/internet allowed, etc.) We've also regularly noticed that more frequently the kids a lot older than the average in our class do NOT do as well as expected (often they even struggle sometimes, which indicates they may possibly be struggling in school, or are just being pushed by parents against their own will). But most kids fall in the middle, i.e they're taking the same class both in school and ours. This is a common scenario and good approach since they are likely to do well (they get the basics in school) then get deeper exposure to problem solving in our class. We also have the kids who "double up" (i.e do one class in school such as algebra, and then take our geometry course at the same time). This can work, but in my experience I've found that they stretch themselves too thin and cannot handle performing well enough in our class because the two subjects do not complement each other much (and in this specific case, our geometry class is MUCH more challenging than our algebra class).