New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What we don't know is how Curie got the secured materials to be able to transmit to their students.

The most obvious answer - and the prevailing theory among most who are aware of this issue - is that former students who had taken the Quant-Q had memorized some of the questions and had brought them back to Curie after the exam.

This is the simplest explanation, and also pretty much eliminates the possibility of an investigation because there is no way to know which students brought the materials back inappropriately. Indeed, it could have easily been students who were not admitted.

But it's easy to understand why they might have done it - many TJ applicants have younger siblings who would benefit from Curie having this information in sizeable quantities.

A couple of pieces of corroborating evidence:

1) Curie publicly claimed ~50 TJ admits in the Class of 2022, ~95 in the Class of 2023, and 133 in the Class of 2024. Because they published first and last names of the admits, it is a matter of public record that substantially ALL of those admits are of South Asian descent, as are the owners and most of the faculty.
2) After reaching a record high of 74.9% in the Class of 2021 with over a decade of steady gains, Asian students comprised only 65.2% of admits in the Class of 2022 (the first year of the Quant-Q) before returning to 72% in 2023 and 73% in 2024.

The pieces of evidence and testimony fit together too perfectly for there to not be a story here. It's hard to understand how one could look at all of that evidence and not conclude that something was going on. Not something illegal, but ABSOLUTELY something that compromised the admissions process in ways that were problematic.

But they also pretty much preclude the possibility of any investigation, and there's really no need for one because the problem has been addressed moving forward.

Completely new poster to this topic. If this is true, this is the problem! Don’t hate the player. Hate the game. But then the player can’t get upset when the game is changed. Ha ha!

The bolded is absolutely ridiculous.

If URMs aren’t proportionately represented in public school programs you’ve got yourselves a system that isn’t working. The bolder is obviously the reason why.

Here we go again. You are advocating for racial quotas with your "proportionately represented" stance. Those have been outlawed as Un-Constitutional for a very long time. As for as the "obvious reason why" - most experts would disagree with you and say the gap in outcomes can be trace back to early childhood in the home and then the elementary schools.

Slow your roll. I didn’t say quota. Don’t change the argument to that. If 133 admitted kids did so by paying for expensive prep—and these are the Asian American children who disproportionately make up the admitted class, then that’s easy enough to change.

You see? It was a system that was being taken advantage of. Fix it.

As far as gaps in outcomes I agree with that as well. Experts are addressing this with other reforms.

Why are we assuming all Asians test prep? I know a asians that got into TJ without prep. Yes there are some asians and whites that prep and others that have extra money but is there data that shows how many actually text prep. Are we just speculating? Stereotype?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What we don't know is how Curie got the secured materials to be able to transmit to their students.

The most obvious answer - and the prevailing theory among most who are aware of this issue - is that former students who had taken the Quant-Q had memorized some of the questions and had brought them back to Curie after the exam.

This is the simplest explanation, and also pretty much eliminates the possibility of an investigation because there is no way to know which students brought the materials back inappropriately. Indeed, it could have easily been students who were not admitted.

But it's easy to understand why they might have done it - many TJ applicants have younger siblings who would benefit from Curie having this information in sizeable quantities.

A couple of pieces of corroborating evidence:

1) Curie publicly claimed ~50 TJ admits in the Class of 2022, ~95 in the Class of 2023, and 133 in the Class of 2024. Because they published first and last names of the admits, it is a matter of public record that substantially ALL of those admits are of South Asian descent, as are the owners and most of the faculty.
2) After reaching a record high of 74.9% in the Class of 2021 with over a decade of steady gains, Asian students comprised only 65.2% of admits in the Class of 2022 (the first year of the Quant-Q) before returning to 72% in 2023 and 73% in 2024.

The pieces of evidence and testimony fit together too perfectly for there to not be a story here. It's hard to understand how one could look at all of that evidence and not conclude that something was going on. Not something illegal, but ABSOLUTELY something that compromised the admissions process in ways that were problematic.

But they also pretty much preclude the possibility of any investigation, and there's really no need for one because the problem has been addressed moving forward.

Completely new poster to this topic. If this is true, this is the problem! Don’t hate the player. Hate the game. But then the player can’t get upset when the game is changed. Ha ha!

The bolded is absolutely ridiculous.

If URMs aren’t proportionately represented in public school programs you’ve got yourselves a system that isn’t working. The bolder is obviously the reason why.

Here we go again. You are advocating for racial quotas with your "proportionately represented" stance. Those have been outlawed as Un-Constitutional for a very long time. As for as the "obvious reason why" - most experts would disagree with you and say the gap in outcomes can be trace back to early childhood in the home and then the elementary schools.

Slow your roll. I didn’t say quota. Don’t change the argument to that. If 133 admitted kids did so by paying for expensive prep—and these are the Asian American children who disproportionately make up the admitted class, then that’s easy enough to change.

You see? It was a system that was being taken advantage of. Fix it.

As far as gaps in outcomes I agree with that as well. Experts are addressing this with other reforms.

Why are we assuming all Asians test prep? I know a asians that got into TJ without prep. Yes there are some asians and whites that prep and others that have extra money but is there data that shows how many actually text prep. Are we just speculating? Stereotype?

*test prep

[Anonymous]

Has performance on these tests been studied for correlation with eventual outcomes at TJ?

This definitely used to be the case with SAT. Not sure since they changed it from an aptitude test to an achievement test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Has performance on these tests been studied for correlation with eventual outcomes at TJ?

This definitely used to be the case with SAT. Not sure since they changed it from an aptitude test to an achievement test.

This is the first year that FCPS/TJHSST has had reliable data on who prepped for certain. They have a list of names from Curie’s public FB posts (taken down, but the lists are still widely available on various “time machine” websites). I'm sure they will compare the outcomes between the 133 Curie students and the rest of the class. The “rest of the class” might also have some prepped students (Sunshine, etc), but it's a good enough group for comparison sake.

[Anonymous]

That would be a study of prep. TJ would have many years of data of performance on quant vs performance at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Just ignore those 'prep' or 'currie' posters. They set up a straw man to distract from the real issue. Everyone hates test prep. The lawsuit has nothing to do with test prep.

The real issue of this lawsuit is about whether FCPS breaks federal law with its new policy. FCPS was not trying to solve the test prep issue. It was trying to solve the "problem" of the racial makeup of TJ. Some serious legal questions need to be resolved with regard to social engineering on the basis of race at high school level.

[Anonymous]

FYI..
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/private-schools-competitive-college-advantage-problems.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FYI..
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/private-schools-competitive-college-advantage-problems.html

That was an interesting article but there was only one sentence in it (that students from elite boarding schools performed worse in the classroom at Harvard) was really on-topic (that the purpose of colleges including elite colleges is to be solely merit based). The rest of the article only pretended to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has performance on these tests been studied for correlation with eventual outcomes at TJ?

This definitely used to be the case with SAT. Not sure since they changed it from an aptitude test to an achievement test.

This is the first year that FCPS/TJHSST has had reliable data on who prepped for certain. They have a list of names from Curie’s public FB posts (taken down, but the lists are still widely available on various “time machine” websites). I'm sure they will compare the outcomes between the 133 Curie students and the rest of the class. The “rest of the class” might also have some prepped students (Sunshine, etc), but it's a good enough group for comparison sake.

You guys are kidding right? It's not like this was the first year anyone ever prepped. Curie, Sunshine, Dalby and host of other prep shops have been in operation for YEARS. They do publish names (at least numbers) of who got in and may have stopped.

How did these kids do at TJ and college admissions? Extremely well. That info. is public knowledge for you to find and analyze. FCPS will NOT do that analysis for you. It's not their mandate.

Anytime there's a competitive endeavor, prep is normal. That's how the world works. White people call us coaching or enrichment, the uninitiated (everyone other than Whites and Asians) call it cheating, and Asians DOGAF.

Just spouting the philosophy of a test (this is a unique test and needs to measure a kid's raw ability so don't prep) doesn't prevent prep. If something can be prepped for, someone will.

When my non-prepped kid entered TJ, I was expecting him to shine because of his "natural ability" and the prepped kids fail because, you know, they are being propped up by prep. I was surprised at how well they all did and how competitive they were. Prep helped them in 9th grade, and the discipline sustained them through sophomore year and beyond. My kid was struggling the first couple of years with the workload and lack of discipline from his ES/MS experience, before acquiring the discipline that the prepped kids had coming in.

Prep classes are attended by extremely smart kids, kids on the borderline and kids who are not that smart. The first group will get into TJ regardless of prep, most of the second group will with Prep and the third group will not, regardless of Prep.

Prep conditions/disciplines kids to work hard. My kids cannot think of getting out of bed before 7/8 AM. They have friends that are up at 4AM for swim practice EVERY DAY. Is that torture? Is that "not letting kids enjoy their life"? Every family chooses their poison. You and I have no say in it. Deal with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FYI..
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/private-schools-competitive-college-advantage-problems.html

Of course.. The outcome people like Ed Blum want is to eliminate race-based admissions while retaining the opacity of the admissions process. Imagine this, Harvard now has zero obligation - and in fact may be forced to not consider race - but gets to retain their opaque admission processes where they consider Asians "not friendly"! This will allow more rich whites to be admitted to the detriment of all non-whites.

However, the narrative has been spun in such a way that colored people (non-whites) are fighting with each other like fools! Clever.

You have to wonder why people are willing to spend $50-70K/yr for private high school. Did you see the chagrin in the other thread discussing how bad college outcomes were at the "Big 3" privates? White peeps were pissed that they spent all that money and couldn't circumvent the system! We know at least 2 families that sent their kids to private schools that are yet to share where their kids are going for college. Both have declined all party invites. Both White. Nothing on kids' social media either (based on what my DC tells me). Can't imagine me having that level of control over my Asian kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI..
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/private-schools-competitive-college-advantage-problems.html

Of course.. The outcome people like Ed Blum want is to eliminate race-based admissions while retaining the opacity of the admissions process. Imagine this, Harvard now has zero obligation - and in fact may be forced to not consider race - but gets to retain their opaque admission processes where they consider Asians "not friendly"! This will allow more rich whites to be admitted to the detriment of all non-whites.

However, the narrative has been spun in such a way that colored people (non-whites) are fighting with each other like fools! Clever.

You have to wonder why people are willing to spend $50-70K/yr for private high school. Did you see the chagrin in the other thread discussing how bad college outcomes were at the "Big 3" privates? White peeps were pissed that they spent all that money and couldn't circumvent the system! We know at least 2 families that sent their kids to private schools that are yet to share where their kids are going for college. Both have declined all party invites. Both White. Nothing on kids' social media either (based on what my DC tells me). Can't imagine me having that level of control over my Asian kid.

DP. I don't wonder at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has performance on these tests been studied for correlation with eventual outcomes at TJ?

This definitely used to be the case with SAT. Not sure since they changed it from an aptitude test to an achievement test.

This is the first year that FCPS/TJHSST has had reliable data on who prepped for certain. They have a list of names from Curie’s public FB posts (taken down, but the lists are still widely available on various “time machine” websites). I'm sure they will compare the outcomes between the 133 Curie students and the rest of the class. The “rest of the class” might also have some prepped students (Sunshine, etc), but it's a good enough group for comparison sake.

You guys are kidding right? It's not like this was the first year anyone ever prepped. Curie, Sunshine, Dalby and host of other prep shops have been in operation for YEARS. They do publish names (at least numbers) of who got in and may have stopped.

How did these kids do at TJ and college admissions? Extremely well. That info. is public knowledge for you to find and analyze. FCPS will NOT do that analysis for you. It's not their mandate.

Anytime there's a competitive endeavor, prep is normal. That's how the world works. White people call us coaching or enrichment, the uninitiated (everyone other than Whites and Asians) call it cheating, and Asians DOGAF.

Just spouting the philosophy of a test (this is a unique test and needs to measure a kid's raw ability so don't prep) doesn't prevent prep. If something can be prepped for, someone will.

When my non-prepped kid entered TJ, I was expecting him to shine because of his "natural ability" and the prepped kids fail because, you know, they are being propped up by prep. I was surprised at how well they all did and how competitive they were. Prep helped them in 9th grade, and the discipline sustained them through sophomore year and beyond. My kid was struggling the first couple of years with the workload and lack of discipline from his ES/MS experience, before acquiring the discipline that the prepped kids had coming in.

Prep classes are attended by extremely smart kids, kids on the borderline and kids who are not that smart. The first group will get into TJ regardless of prep, most of the second group will with Prep and the third group will not, regardless of Prep.

Prep conditions/disciplines kids to work hard. My kids cannot think of getting out of bed before 7/8 AM. They have friends that are up at 4AM for swim practice EVERY DAY. Is that torture? Is that "not letting kids enjoy their life"? Every family chooses their poison. You and I have no say in it. Deal with it.

There is prep. It’s a very competitive market and there are at least a dozen longtime companies. Unclear how effective they really are.

AND then there is Curie prep. From 50 students in the class of 2022 to 133 in the class of 2024. This is not “hard work”. Students said publically that they had a copy of the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has performance on these tests been studied for correlation with eventual outcomes at TJ?

This definitely used to be the case with SAT. Not sure since they changed it from an aptitude test to an achievement test.

This is the first year that FCPS/TJHSST has had reliable data on who prepped for certain. They have a list of names from Curie’s public FB posts (taken down, but the lists are still widely available on various “time machine” websites). I'm sure they will compare the outcomes between the 133 Curie students and the rest of the class. The “rest of the class” might also have some prepped students (Sunshine, etc), but it's a good enough group for comparison sake.

You guys are kidding right? It's not like this was the first year anyone ever prepped. Curie, Sunshine, Dalby and host of other prep shops have been in operation for YEARS. They do publish names (at least numbers) of who got in and may have stopped.

How did these kids do at TJ and college admissions? Extremely well. That info. is public knowledge for you to find and analyze. FCPS will NOT do that analysis for you. It's not their mandate.

Anytime there's a competitive endeavor, prep is normal. That's how the world works. White people call us coaching or enrichment, the uninitiated (everyone other than Whites and Asians) call it cheating, and Asians DOGAF.

Just spouting the philosophy of a test (this is a unique test and needs to measure a kid's raw ability so don't prep) doesn't prevent prep. If something can be prepped for, someone will.

When my non-prepped kid entered TJ, I was expecting him to shine because of his "natural ability" and the prepped kids fail because, you know, they are being propped up by prep. I was surprised at how well they all did and how competitive they were. Prep helped them in 9th grade, and the discipline sustained them through sophomore year and beyond. My kid was struggling the first couple of years with the workload and lack of discipline from his ES/MS experience, before acquiring the discipline that the prepped kids had coming in.

Prep classes are attended by extremely smart kids, kids on the borderline and kids who are not that smart. The first group will get into TJ regardless of prep, most of the second group will with Prep and the third group will not, regardless of Prep.

Prep conditions/disciplines kids to work hard. My kids cannot think of getting out of bed before 7/8 AM. They have friends that are up at 4AM for swim practice EVERY DAY. Is that torture? Is that "not letting kids enjoy their life"? Every family chooses their poison. You and I have no say in it. Deal with it.

There is prep. It’s a very competitive market and there are at least a dozen longtime companies. Unclear how effective they really are.

AND then there is Curie prep. From 50 students in the class of 2022 to 133 in the class of 2024. This is not “hard work”. Students said publically that they had a copy of the test.

How is performance of the 50 students in the class of 2022 to 133 in the class of 2024 so far ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has performance on these tests been studied for correlation with eventual outcomes at TJ?

This definitely used to be the case with SAT. Not sure since they changed it from an aptitude test to an achievement test.

This is the first year that FCPS/TJHSST has had reliable data on who prepped for certain. They have a list of names from Curie’s public FB posts (taken down, but the lists are still widely available on various “time machine” websites). I'm sure they will compare the outcomes between the 133 Curie students and the rest of the class. The “rest of the class” might also have some prepped students (Sunshine, etc), but it's a good enough group for comparison sake.

You guys are kidding right? It's not like this was the first year anyone ever prepped. Curie, Sunshine, Dalby and host of other prep shops have been in operation for YEARS. They do publish names (at least numbers) of who got in and may have stopped.

How did these kids do at TJ and college admissions? Extremely well. That info. is public knowledge for you to find and analyze. FCPS will NOT do that analysis for you. It's not their mandate.

Anytime there's a competitive endeavor, prep is normal. That's how the world works. White people call us coaching or enrichment, the uninitiated (everyone other than Whites and Asians) call it cheating, and Asians DOGAF.

Just spouting the philosophy of a test (this is a unique test and needs to measure a kid's raw ability so don't prep) doesn't prevent prep. If something can be prepped for, someone will.

When my non-prepped kid entered TJ, I was expecting him to shine because of his "natural ability" and the prepped kids fail because, you know, they are being propped up by prep. I was surprised at how well they all did and how competitive they were. Prep helped them in 9th grade, and the discipline sustained them through sophomore year and beyond. My kid was struggling the first couple of years with the workload and lack of discipline from his ES/MS experience, before acquiring the discipline that the prepped kids had coming in.

Prep classes are attended by extremely smart kids, kids on the borderline and kids who are not that smart. The first group will get into TJ regardless of prep, most of the second group will with Prep and the third group will not, regardless of Prep.

Prep conditions/disciplines kids to work hard. My kids cannot think of getting out of bed before 7/8 AM. They have friends that are up at 4AM for swim practice EVERY DAY. Is that torture? Is that "not letting kids enjoy their life"? Every family chooses their poison. You and I have no say in it. Deal with it.

There is prep. It’s a very competitive market and there are at least a dozen longtime companies. Unclear how effective they really are.

AND then there is Curie prep. From 50 students in the class of 2022 to 133 in the class of 2024. This is not “hard work”. Students said publically that they had a copy of the test.

How is performance of the 50 students in the class of 2022 to 133 in the class of 2024 so far ?

Only the county could answer that question since nobody else has that data, but the thing is this gave those kids an unfair advantage and a spot that might've gone to someone more derverving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

AND then there is Curie prep. From 50 students in the class of 2022 to 133 in the class of 2024. This is not “hard work”. Students said publically that they had a copy of the test.

There is a difference between copy of the test, and copy of a test, and they saw a test that Curie made based on previous questions.