Taylor Swift is awful (and her music isn't even very good)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait. Taylor doesn’t write the music? Only the lyrics? So she’s not writing the songs? Writing the music is obviously the hardest part of composing. The greatest music ever produced by human beings doesn’t even have lyrics. I’m surprised she hasn’t forced or paid off the music writers to be anonymous and let her take credit for composing the music. She’s admitting she’s not talented enough to write the music most of the time and I give her credit for being honest about that. Groups like the Backstreet Boys and **NSYNC don’t write their music either but they don’t have the money to make the writers disappear. Although those two bands have songs like “ i want it that way” that everybody knows and will be played for decades on commercials and such.

She writes some of the music, not all. Sometimes she has most of the structure of the song either on her piano or guitar when she comes to work with the producers and they refine it. Other times, such as “out of the woods,” her partner, Jack Antonoff sent her the music and he says that 30 minutes later, she sent him back a track with full lyrics. he said it was an amazing experience and why they collaborate so well.

One of the things I admire about Taylor is that she doesn’t just work with people labels want her to work with. She reached out to Antonoff before he was a well-known producer at all, and just saw something in him for a soundtrack song she was working on and that led to him working on 1989 and then every album she’s worked on since.

Same with Aaron Dessner. They had met years earlier and she reached out during lockdown said hey, do you want to collaborate?

A lot of artist are too scared to make those choices and just depend on their label.

This comment so clearly illustrates why people can't see eye to eye on this.

I'm sitting here thinking "what in earth are you talking about that other artists just rely on their label to hire songwriters and collaborators???" Because that's definitely not the norm for the artists I listen to or for people at the level of icon that we are comparing Swift to. Like Father John Misty and Jenny Lewis don't just do what some mega label tells them to, especially not regarding collaboration. Jack White is not following label orders. Artists like Madonna or Guns & Roses certainly got pushed around some early in their careers, but they also made their own choices and stuck to their guns when it mattered. Brian Wilson recorded Pet Sounds mostly alone in a studio and barely collaborated with his band mates. Basically ALL of the truly great artists exercise a lot of creative control over who they collaborate with.

But I get it, you mean compared to artists like Ariana Grande or something. Pop stars who mostly don't write their own music or only do so as contributors working with experienced hit writers hired by a label. If that's most of the music you listen to, I guess Taylor seems really impressive, for writing her own lyrics and exercising some agency in production.

But what you are describing is like baseline stuff. I listen to very little music produced by the kinds of machines that churn out boy bands and pop stars. I guess Swift is more original than other products of that world. But that's not where I go for music to start, so it doesn't impress me. Most of the new music I listen to are bands and artists who have always exercised a huge amount of control over their music, both before and after signing with a label.

I’m the person you’re responding to, and we are making the same point. I was making that exact point that artists with the commercial success Taylor has often stick with what is working and what the label says.

The huge artists that you mentioned that everybody knows that don’t do that… They are huge artist for a reason just like Taylor. They are following their own instincts and taking risks and that works. We are essentially making the same point.

No, we are not making the same point.

I don't think Taylor takes risks. At all. I think she is a master at doing what is working in order to maintain her large fan base, while tweaking it slightly to attract new fans. This is great for record sales but not for music.

Taylor is better than all major labels at reading the mass market and tailoring her sound, but perhaps more importantly, her aesthetic to the market. She's a marketing genius.

But her music is middling, it's not great. Because she is middling writer, musician, and performer. That she is making decisions about her music as opposed to having them imposed on her by a label is just strong evidence of how mediocre a talent she is. She is unconstrained by her label or management and still her music is okay, not great.

My point is that exercising artistic choice and freedom is not evidence in and of itself if greatness. It's the cost of entry to the debate. But even though Taylor can be in the conversation, I and many others don't think she lives up the the musical greats and will never be among them in history.

Ha! This reminds of a song…

“I’m really gonna miss you picking fights
And me
Falling for it screaming that I’m right
And you
Would hide away and find you piece of mind
With some indie record that’s much cooler than mine…”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

I’ve literally looked at every single song PPs have said has great lines. And I strongly stand by my interpretation of her lyrics.

I keep asking posters to provide examples and all I get is crap like: ” darling, I’m a nightmare dressed up as a daydream.” Which I’ve already pointed out is cheesy play on “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Where are these metaphorical lyrics? Please do share!

But please do share

Okay, here’s a few examples that comes to mind immediately

While you were out building other worlds, where was I?
Where's that man who'd throw blankets over my barbed wire?
I made you my temple, my mural, my sky
Now I'm begging for footnotes in the story of your life
Drawing hearts in the byline
Always taking up too much space or time

——

Spider-boy, king of thieves
Weave your little webs of opacity
My pennies made your crown
Trick me once, trick me twice
Don't you know that cash ain't the only price?
It's coming back around
And I keep my side of the street clean
You wouldn't know what I mean

—

It rains when you’re here and it rains when you’re gone

—

You call me up again just to break me like a promise, so casually cruel in the name of being honest

—

Long were the nights when my days once revolved around you
Counting my footsteps
Praying the floor won’t fall through, again

—

Fighting with a true love is boxing with no gloves, chemistry 'til it blows up, 'til there's no us

I don’t see what you see. To me all of those lyrics are derivative. I can immediately recall the other specific lyrics they remind me of. It’s not plagiarism per se, but they are reductive, nothing new or interesting to me, and I prefer the original much better. I would go line by line and describe what’s derivative about all of them, but the last time I did, I was accused of being a gaslighting abuser. But if you’re interested, I suggest you look into U2’s music. So many of Taylor’s lines are “inspired” directly by Bono.

I don't think anyone ever said--I certainly didn't--that Taylor Swift's lyrics are groundbreaking or unique? Just that they accomplish something (being easy to understand, sound pretty, and are evocative and relatable) as well as better than your made up "lyrics" that you ascribe to Taylor. I've heard like, three U2 songs in my life (not memorable, most just sounds like scatting to me) so I don't notice or care that she seems to be influenced by Bono.

I’m not huge U2 fan, either, but if you were familiar with their music, you would see that Taylor copies their lyrics. If you’d like to see an example of this go and check out “One.”

NP, and I am a huge U2 fan. Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor music, but can you point to the lyrics that are very similar? I am very familiar With the song one but I can’t think of what lyrics of Taylor you’re referring to that sound like that?

Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor’s music, so not disagreeing with you just curious if you have time to refer me to the lyrics.

I’m not a huge connoisseur of Taylor’s music either. That’s why I asked people to give me examples of her good lyrics. This is from earlier in the thread, where I first noticed the similarities to U2.

From “All Too Well”

And maybe we got lost in translation
Maybe I asked for too much
But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up
Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well
And you call me up again just to break me like a promise
So casually cruel in the name of being honest
I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well

It’s not plagiarism, but it’s so similar and derivative to the lyrics of “One,” only much worse.

Are the similarities in the room with us right now?

Seriously, what?

I’m sure you’re going to be like “if you have to ask, you’ll never know….it’s called good taste, sweaty. You don’t know music like I do” LOL

I’ll describe the similarities, no problem. But don’t refute what I say by calling me a gaslighting abuser.

Here we go:

1) “And maybe we got lost in translation”

This line invokes the exact same message as the opening lines of “One,” a confusion as to where the relationship stands and how it got that way: “Is it getting better, or do you feel the same? Did I disappoint you, or leave a bad taste in your mouth?”

The two songs start at the same point, with the same inference.

2) “Maybe I asked for too much”

This is the exact first line of verse 6 in “One”: “Did I ask too much, more than a lot.”

3) “But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up”

This copies the sentiment of verse 7 of “One”: “Love is a temple, love’s a higher ground, you ask me to enter then you make me crawl.” The “masterpiece” in “All too Well” is the “temple” and the “higher ground” in “One,” representing the perfection of love. But then the protagonist’s lover took it away “you ask me to enter, then you make me crawl” and in Taylor’s version “‘till you tore it all up.”

4) “Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well”

This line refers to the relationship history of the parties involved, which is just like verse 4 of “One.” (“Is it too late tonight to drag the past out into the light?”) The only difference is that in Taylor’s version, she doesn’t want to rehash the past, but U2’s is more ambiguous.


5) “And you call me up again just to break me like a promise”

This line has the identical sentiment of Verse 5 of “One.” The lover keeps coming back to rehash and hurt the protagonist again and again. (“Have you come here for forgiveness, have you come to raise the dead, have you come here to play Jesus to the lepers in your head?”)

6) “So casually cruel in the name of being honest”

This is like verse 1 and 3 of “One.” (“Will it make it easier now that you’ve got someone to blame?” And “You act like you’ve never had love and want me to do without.”) The protagonist’s ex self-righteously taunts him or her in both versions.

7) “I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well”

This is just like verse 6 of “One” (“You gave me nothing but it’s all I got.”) In both versions, the protagonist is left with nothing but painful memories that he or she cannot let go of, because that’s better than losing the memory of their lover.


To me these are essentially the same songs, except “One” is more uplifting and much better written. Like I said, it’s not plagiarism, but it’s the definition of derivative.

This analysis is inexplicable and perplexing. I almost feel sympathetic embarrassment for whoever wrote this. I can’t imagine how confusing life must be for such a person.
- not a swiftie

Can you specify what exactly is inexplicable and perplexing about this analysis? What you said is a generalization with no explanation. I feel more sorry for you than the thoughtful analysis you are dissing. At least she qualified her opinions with examples. What you said is just an open-ended unjustified insult. And it’s generic.

I feel sorry for you “life must be very confusing” for you, too.

Sounds pretty stupid when you hear your words regurgitated back at you, no?

Fine. Let’s do this.
“One” starts is Am and eventually revolves to CM.
“ All too well” starts and ends in CM
I’d consider them both Andante but I’m not looking up bpm. They are both 4/4
ATW - is 1564
One - is 1645 Am then 1641 CM once you resolve to the major key.
These are pretty typical pop progressions. You’ll find them everywhere.

They aren’t about similar subject matter. Like at all. I mean I guess they are about “love” but so are 98% of all pop music ever written. I haven’t listened to One in a while, but I believe it resolves to a major key musically as the lyircs resolve to some sort of resolution of making a painful relationship work.
ATW resolves with the accepted end of season, end of relationship. Starts as it ends musically. Of course that’s after major dynamic shift within the piece.
Ok. So I finally had to pull up lyrics. And honestly now I’m embarrassed for me, that I’m lying in bed doing a comp theory assignment for zero credit. But I’m in it now… so here goes.
While there is similar rhythmic prose happening between the pieces, the songs aren’t really structured the same.
“One” is verse chorus verse chorus
ATW is verse verse couplet chorus
“One” is vague and broad. Who is taking? Who are they taking to? Is it people in general? None of this is bad. It speaks to many. It’s relatable.
ATW- highly specific. The song progresses through seasons and the music whisks along with. You see the couple on a fall trip. You understand the closeness. The smell of her scarf. He’s wearing plaid and kept her scarf. Not many words written for how much information is imparted and the picture that is painted for you.
“ cause there we are again, in the middle of the night. We’re dancing around the kitchen in the refrigerator light”
Super specific super clear. You can see it.
The song continues to unspool and here is where I can see another similarity between One. Both songs feel carefully musically wound. Like a spool of wire. They pull evenly and perfectly. They both cleanly build upon themselves to full power ballads. There is real catharsis happening and they really make you feel it. Taylor is good, but Bono really nails this for me. 90’s teen me is super emo listening to this in high school. I’m right back there when I hear him wailing on the bridge.
But Taylor is known for writing a good bridge and she nails it in ATW. She’s hysterical in her relationship and musically she captures the heaving sobs of heartbreak. Again super specific.
I’m trying to remember the end of “One”. I believe it stays in CM… I don’t think it’s a fade out. I think they smash on tonic for the finish. Forgive me if I’m wrong.
ATW is repetitive fade out. She’s haunted by the death of the relationship. The picture might as well be a movie. You see the snow falling. Again crazy clear.
These songs have a few similarities.
Like they both are in the same key for a bit.
They are both similar tempi in 4/4…
They both are about “ love”…
They both build to an emotional and musical crescendo.

But these are some of the hallmarks of all songwriting. All music.
All Too Well is probably inspired by something. I highly doubt it’s One.

I was talking about the lyrics. Taylor didn’t write the music, she wrote the lyrics. The music was written by Liz Rose. Stick to the subject and why you said the PP’s interpretation of the lyrics playing off those in “One” was “inexplicable” and “perplexing.” No one is arguing that Liz Rose can write music, but great way to change the topic.

Honey, it’s a song. Not a poem. This is the topic. Basic song structure is about lyrics. You can’t ignore the form of a song.
1) Rose has a co writing credit on the final edit. I don’t know why you think TS only wrote the lyrics. That’s an absurd assumption.
2) “Perplexing” because that analysis is … just not an analysis. At all.
“TS wrote this lyric and Bono has a similar sentiment at the same point in his song?” Or worse in a completely different part of Bono’s song he talks about asking for too much , and TS also mentions asking for too much, just not in the same way, same place, similar lyric, rhythm or anything….
WHAT?!?!???
That’s not analysis. No observation of rhythm, rhyme, or song structure?
Of course that’s difficult, because these songs aren’t particularly similar other than tonally. And frankly writing in C major/A minor is hardly something to pin your argument to.
Although I find it remarkable that someone would immediately draw a comparison between the pieces when one starts in the minor key and the other does not.

And frankly the sentiment of “asked me to enter and then you make me crawl, and I can’t keep holding on”
Vs “ maybe this thing was a masterpiece till we tore it all up. Running scared, I was there I remember it.”
- these aren’t similar. Bono is talking his diminishment to keep this thing, and TS is talking about something that is no longer kept.
The sentiment is “asking for too much” in both songs? Ok…. That’s a pillar of writing unrequited love songs. Are the actual lyrics similar? Not even really.
So I say again perplexing.
If the person making this analysis really sees these things as similar, what else do they see patterns and links in?
I’m concerned for them.

Taylor didn’t write the music, Liz Rose did and anyone who can read between the lines appreciates that. That’s why Taylor’s music changes depending on whom she’s “collaborating” with. Her Liz Rose songs are completely different than her Jack Antonoff songs, not because she grew as a composer, but because she hired a new one to write the music. Taylor’s contribution to “All to Well” was the lyrics, the “poem” part, as you call it.

And it’s not very original. I had even heard the song before this thread because I find Taylor’s voice to be very irritating and raspy. I just don’t like the way it sounds, but PPs were going on and on about what an amazing lyricist she is. I asked for examples and someone provided “All Too Well” as one. I was going on lyrics alone, not on the overall song, because I had never heard it before. The lyrics, just the lyrics, are a poor imitation of those in “One.”

That’s the thing about Taylor, when you peel the layers, you see that underneath there isn’t very much going on. I’m not debating Liz Rose’s songwriting skills. I’m talking about Taylor’s alleged lyricist ones. They are completely lacking and very derivative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

I’ve literally looked at every single song PPs have said has great lines. And I strongly stand by my interpretation of her lyrics.

I keep asking posters to provide examples and all I get is crap like: ” darling, I’m a nightmare dressed up as a daydream.” Which I’ve already pointed out is cheesy play on “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Where are these metaphorical lyrics? Please do share!

But please do share

Okay, here’s a few examples that comes to mind immediately

While you were out building other worlds, where was I?
Where's that man who'd throw blankets over my barbed wire?
I made you my temple, my mural, my sky
Now I'm begging for footnotes in the story of your life
Drawing hearts in the byline
Always taking up too much space or time

——

Spider-boy, king of thieves
Weave your little webs of opacity
My pennies made your crown
Trick me once, trick me twice
Don't you know that cash ain't the only price?
It's coming back around
And I keep my side of the street clean
You wouldn't know what I mean

—

It rains when you’re here and it rains when you’re gone

—

You call me up again just to break me like a promise, so casually cruel in the name of being honest

—

Long were the nights when my days once revolved around you
Counting my footsteps
Praying the floor won’t fall through, again

—

Fighting with a true love is boxing with no gloves, chemistry 'til it blows up, 'til there's no us

I don’t see what you see. To me all of those lyrics are derivative. I can immediately recall the other specific lyrics they remind me of. It’s not plagiarism per se, but they are reductive, nothing new or interesting to me, and I prefer the original much better. I would go line by line and describe what’s derivative about all of them, but the last time I did, I was accused of being a gaslighting abuser. But if you’re interested, I suggest you look into U2’s music. So many of Taylor’s lines are “inspired” directly by Bono.

I don't think anyone ever said--I certainly didn't--that Taylor Swift's lyrics are groundbreaking or unique? Just that they accomplish something (being easy to understand, sound pretty, and are evocative and relatable) as well as better than your made up "lyrics" that you ascribe to Taylor. I've heard like, three U2 songs in my life (not memorable, most just sounds like scatting to me) so I don't notice or care that she seems to be influenced by Bono.

I’m not huge U2 fan, either, but if you were familiar with their music, you would see that Taylor copies their lyrics. If you’d like to see an example of this go and check out “One.”

NP, and I am a huge U2 fan. Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor music, but can you point to the lyrics that are very similar? I am very familiar With the song one but I can’t think of what lyrics of Taylor you’re referring to that sound like that?

Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor’s music, so not disagreeing with you just curious if you have time to refer me to the lyrics.

I’m not a huge connoisseur of Taylor’s music either. That’s why I asked people to give me examples of her good lyrics. This is from earlier in the thread, where I first noticed the similarities to U2.

From “All Too Well”

And maybe we got lost in translation
Maybe I asked for too much
But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up
Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well
And you call me up again just to break me like a promise
So casually cruel in the name of being honest
I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well

It’s not plagiarism, but it’s so similar and derivative to the lyrics of “One,” only much worse.

Are the similarities in the room with us right now?

Seriously, what?

I’m sure you’re going to be like “if you have to ask, you’ll never know….it’s called good taste, sweaty. You don’t know music like I do” LOL

I’ll describe the similarities, no problem. But don’t refute what I say by calling me a gaslighting abuser.

Here we go:

1) “And maybe we got lost in translation”

This line invokes the exact same message as the opening lines of “One,” a confusion as to where the relationship stands and how it got that way: “Is it getting better, or do you feel the same? Did I disappoint you, or leave a bad taste in your mouth?”

The two songs start at the same point, with the same inference.

2) “Maybe I asked for too much”

This is the exact first line of verse 6 in “One”: “Did I ask too much, more than a lot.”

3) “But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up”

This copies the sentiment of verse 7 of “One”: “Love is a temple, love’s a higher ground, you ask me to enter then you make me crawl.” The “masterpiece” in “All too Well” is the “temple” and the “higher ground” in “One,” representing the perfection of love. But then the protagonist’s lover took it away “you ask me to enter, then you make me crawl” and in Taylor’s version “‘till you tore it all up.”

4) “Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well”

This line refers to the relationship history of the parties involved, which is just like verse 4 of “One.” (“Is it too late tonight to drag the past out into the light?”) The only difference is that in Taylor’s version, she doesn’t want to rehash the past, but U2’s is more ambiguous.


5) “And you call me up again just to break me like a promise”

This line has the identical sentiment of Verse 5 of “One.” The lover keeps coming back to rehash and hurt the protagonist again and again. (“Have you come here for forgiveness, have you come to raise the dead, have you come here to play Jesus to the lepers in your head?”)

6) “So casually cruel in the name of being honest”

This is like verse 1 and 3 of “One.” (“Will it make it easier now that you’ve got someone to blame?” And “You act like you’ve never had love and want me to do without.”) The protagonist’s ex self-righteously taunts him or her in both versions.

7) “I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well”

This is just like verse 6 of “One” (“You gave me nothing but it’s all I got.”) In both versions, the protagonist is left with nothing but painful memories that he or she cannot let go of, because that’s better than losing the memory of their lover.


To me these are essentially the same songs, except “One” is more uplifting and much better written. Like I said, it’s not plagiarism, but it’s the definition of derivative.

This analysis is inexplicable and perplexing. I almost feel sympathetic embarrassment for whoever wrote this. I can’t imagine how confusing life must be for such a person.
- not a swiftie

Can you specify what exactly is inexplicable and perplexing about this analysis? What you said is a generalization with no explanation. I feel more sorry for you than the thoughtful analysis you are dissing. At least she qualified her opinions with examples. What you said is just an open-ended unjustified insult. And it’s generic.

I feel sorry for you “life must be very confusing” for you, too.

Sounds pretty stupid when you hear your words regurgitated back at you, no?

Fine. Let’s do this.
“One” starts is Am and eventually revolves to CM.
“ All too well” starts and ends in CM
I’d consider them both Andante but I’m not looking up bpm. They are both 4/4
ATW - is 1564
One - is 1645 Am then 1641 CM once you resolve to the major key.
These are pretty typical pop progressions. You’ll find them everywhere.

They aren’t about similar subject matter. Like at all. I mean I guess they are about “love” but so are 98% of all pop music ever written. I haven’t listened to One in a while, but I believe it resolves to a major key musically as the lyircs resolve to some sort of resolution of making a painful relationship work.
ATW resolves with the accepted end of season, end of relationship. Starts as it ends musically. Of course that’s after major dynamic shift within the piece.
Ok. So I finally had to pull up lyrics. And honestly now I’m embarrassed for me, that I’m lying in bed doing a comp theory assignment for zero credit. But I’m in it now… so here goes.
While there is similar rhythmic prose happening between the pieces, the songs aren’t really structured the same.
“One” is verse chorus verse chorus
ATW is verse verse couplet chorus
“One” is vague and broad. Who is taking? Who are they taking to? Is it people in general? None of this is bad. It speaks to many. It’s relatable.
ATW- highly specific. The song progresses through seasons and the music whisks along with. You see the couple on a fall trip. You understand the closeness. The smell of her scarf. He’s wearing plaid and kept her scarf. Not many words written for how much information is imparted and the picture that is painted for you.
“ cause there we are again, in the middle of the night. We’re dancing around the kitchen in the refrigerator light”
Super specific super clear. You can see it.
The song continues to unspool and here is where I can see another similarity between One. Both songs feel carefully musically wound. Like a spool of wire. They pull evenly and perfectly. They both cleanly build upon themselves to full power ballads. There is real catharsis happening and they really make you feel it. Taylor is good, but Bono really nails this for me. 90’s teen me is super emo listening to this in high school. I’m right back there when I hear him wailing on the bridge.
But Taylor is known for writing a good bridge and she nails it in ATW. She’s hysterical in her relationship and musically she captures the heaving sobs of heartbreak. Again super specific.
I’m trying to remember the end of “One”. I believe it stays in CM… I don’t think it’s a fade out. I think they smash on tonic for the finish. Forgive me if I’m wrong.
ATW is repetitive fade out. She’s haunted by the death of the relationship. The picture might as well be a movie. You see the snow falling. Again crazy clear.
These songs have a few similarities.
Like they both are in the same key for a bit.
They are both similar tempi in 4/4…
They both are about “ love”…
They both build to an emotional and musical crescendo.

But these are some of the hallmarks of all songwriting. All music.
All Too Well is probably inspired by something. I highly doubt it’s One.

I was talking about the lyrics. Taylor didn’t write the music, she wrote the lyrics. The music was written by Liz Rose. Stick to the subject and why you said the PP’s interpretation of the lyrics playing off those in “One” was “inexplicable” and “perplexing.” No one is arguing that Liz Rose can write music, but great way to change the topic.

Honey, it’s a song. Not a poem. This is the topic. Basic song structure is about lyrics. You can’t ignore the form of a song.
1) Rose has a co writing credit on the final edit. I don’t know why you think TS only wrote the lyrics. That’s an absurd assumption.
2) “Perplexing” because that analysis is … just not an analysis. At all.
“TS wrote this lyric and Bono has a similar sentiment at the same point in his song?” Or worse in a completely different part of Bono’s song he talks about asking for too much , and TS also mentions asking for too much, just not in the same way, same place, similar lyric, rhythm or anything….
WHAT?!?!???
That’s not analysis. No observation of rhythm, rhyme, or song structure?
Of course that’s difficult, because these songs aren’t particularly similar other than tonally. And frankly writing in C major/A minor is hardly something to pin your argument to.
Although I find it remarkable that someone would immediately draw a comparison between the pieces when one starts in the minor key and the other does not.

And frankly the sentiment of “asked me to enter and then you make me crawl, and I can’t keep holding on”
Vs “ maybe this thing was a masterpiece till we tore it all up. Running scared, I was there I remember it.”
- these aren’t similar. Bono is talking his diminishment to keep this thing, and TS is talking about something that is no longer kept.
The sentiment is “asking for too much” in both songs? Ok…. That’s a pillar of writing unrequited love songs. Are the actual lyrics similar? Not even really.
So I say again perplexing.
If the person making this analysis really sees these things as similar, what else do they see patterns and links in?
I’m concerned for them.

Taylor didn’t write the music, Liz Rose did and anyone who can read between the lines appreciates that. That’s why Taylor’s music changes depending on whom she’s “collaborating” with. Her Liz Rose songs are completely different than her Jack Antonoff songs, not because she grew as a composer, but because she hired a new one to write the music. Taylor’s contribution to “All to Well” was the lyrics, the “poem” part, as you call it.

And it’s not very original. I had even heard the song before this thread because I find Taylor’s voice to be very irritating and raspy. I just don’t like the way it sounds, but PPs were going on and on about what an amazing lyricist she is. I asked for examples and someone provided “All Too Well” as one. I was going on lyrics alone, not on the overall song, because I had never heard it before. The lyrics, just the lyrics, are a poor imitation of those in “One.”

That’s the thing about Taylor, when you peel the layers, you see that underneath there isn’t very much going on. I’m not debating Liz Rose’s songwriting skills. I’m talking about Taylor’s alleged lyricist ones. They are completely lacking and very derivative.

So you’re just gonna make up facts and stick with it? Cool cool cool.
The song was written on the road by Swift.
Rose was brought in after the fact to help cobble it down to its original iteration and fine tune. Rose didn’t “compose the music”.
TS isn’t an amazing musician but she collaborates really well with others. That is a talent on its own.
But frankly her “eras” actually don’t sound all that different. She has a sound. It’s actually very “adult contemporary”. It surprises me that so many young people love it.
The lyrics of ATW have very little in common with One. There are words that all love songs utilize. You will be hard pressed to find POPULAR love songs that aren’t derivative.
But you don’t seem to understand that songs have structure, rhythm, melody, harmony…
ATW is more than the written words but even if it was and you looked at only text side by side with One, these pieces aren’t really similar. They aren’t even talking about the same thing.
Perplexing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait. Taylor doesn’t write the music? Only the lyrics? So she’s not writing the songs? Writing the music is obviously the hardest part of composing. The greatest music ever produced by human beings doesn’t even have lyrics. I’m surprised she hasn’t forced or paid off the music writers to be anonymous and let her take credit for composing the music. She’s admitting she’s not talented enough to write the music most of the time and I give her credit for being honest about that. Groups like the Backstreet Boys and **NSYNC don’t write their music either but they don’t have the money to make the writers disappear. Although those two bands have songs like “ i want it that way” that everybody knows and will be played for decades on commercials and such.

She writes some of the music, not all. Sometimes she has most of the structure of the song either on her piano or guitar when she comes to work with the producers and they refine it. Other times, such as “out of the woods,” her partner, Jack Antonoff sent her the music and he says that 30 minutes later, she sent him back a track with full lyrics. he said it was an amazing experience and why they collaborate so well.

One of the things I admire about Taylor is that she doesn’t just work with people labels want her to work with. She reached out to Antonoff before he was a well-known producer at all, and just saw something in him for a soundtrack song she was working on and that led to him working on 1989 and then every album she’s worked on since.

Same with Aaron Dessner. They had met years earlier and she reached out during lockdown said hey, do you want to collaborate?

A lot of artist are too scared to make those choices and just depend on their label.

This comment so clearly illustrates why people can't see eye to eye on this.

I'm sitting here thinking "what in earth are you talking about that other artists just rely on their label to hire songwriters and collaborators???" Because that's definitely not the norm for the artists I listen to or for people at the level of icon that we are comparing Swift to. Like Father John Misty and Jenny Lewis don't just do what some mega label tells them to, especially not regarding collaboration. Jack White is not following label orders. Artists like Madonna or Guns & Roses certainly got pushed around some early in their careers, but they also made their own choices and stuck to their guns when it mattered. Brian Wilson recorded Pet Sounds mostly alone in a studio and barely collaborated with his band mates. Basically ALL of the truly great artists exercise a lot of creative control over who they collaborate with.

But I get it, you mean compared to artists like Ariana Grande or something. Pop stars who mostly don't write their own music or only do so as contributors working with experienced hit writers hired by a label. If that's most of the music you listen to, I guess Taylor seems really impressive, for writing her own lyrics and exercising some agency in production.

But what you are describing is like baseline stuff. I listen to very little music produced by the kinds of machines that churn out boy bands and pop stars. I guess Swift is more original than other products of that world. But that's not where I go for music to start, so it doesn't impress me. Most of the new music I listen to are bands and artists who have always exercised a huge amount of control over their music, both before and after signing with a label.

I’m the person you’re responding to, and we are making the same point. I was making that exact point that artists with the commercial success Taylor has often stick with what is working and what the label says.

The huge artists that you mentioned that everybody knows that don’t do that… They are huge artist for a reason just like Taylor. They are following their own instincts and taking risks and that works. We are essentially making the same point.

No, we are not making the same point.

I don't think Taylor takes risks. At all. I think she is a master at doing what is working in order to maintain her large fan base, while tweaking it slightly to attract new fans. This is great for record sales but not for music.

Taylor is better than all major labels at reading the mass market and tailoring her sound, but perhaps more importantly, her aesthetic to the market. She's a marketing genius.

But her music is middling, it's not great. Because she is middling writer, musician, and performer. That she is making decisions about her music as opposed to having them imposed on her by a label is just strong evidence of how mediocre a talent she is. She is unconstrained by her label or management and still her music is okay, not great.

My point is that exercising artistic choice and freedom is not evidence in and of itself if greatness. It's the cost of entry to the debate. But even though Taylor can be in the conversation, I and many others don't think she lives up the the musical greats and will never be among them in history.

Ha! This reminds of a song…

“I’m really gonna miss you picking fights
And me
Falling for it screaming that I’m right
And you
Would hide away and find you piece of mind
With some indie record that’s much cooler than mine…”

It's funny to me that so many Swifties cite this song -- I guess one thing people identify with Taylor on is feeling very insecure about how cool or not cool their musical taste is.

The problem with Swift's music is not that it's not "cool." It's that it's mediocre.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wait. Taylor doesn’t write the music? Only the lyrics? So she’s not writing the songs? Writing the music is obviously the hardest part of composing. The greatest music ever produced by human beings doesn’t even have lyrics. I’m surprised she hasn’t forced or paid off the music writers to be anonymous and let her take credit for composing the music. She’s admitting she’s not talented enough to write the music most of the time and I give her credit for being honest about that. Groups like the Backstreet Boys and **NSYNC don’t write their music either but they don’t have the money to make the writers disappear. Although those two bands have songs like “ i want it that way” that everybody knows and will be played for decades on commercials and such.

She writes some of the music, not all. Sometimes she has most of the structure of the song either on her piano or guitar when she comes to work with the producers and they refine it. Other times, such as “out of the woods,” her partner, Jack Antonoff sent her the music and he says that 30 minutes later, she sent him back a track with full lyrics. he said it was an amazing experience and why they collaborate so well.

One of the things I admire about Taylor is that she doesn’t just work with people labels want her to work with. She reached out to Antonoff before he was a well-known producer at all, and just saw something in him for a soundtrack song she was working on and that led to him working on 1989 and then every album she’s worked on since.

Same with Aaron Dessner. They had met years earlier and she reached out during lockdown said hey, do you want to collaborate?

A lot of artist are too scared to make those choices and just depend on their label.

This comment so clearly illustrates why people can't see eye to eye on this.

I'm sitting here thinking "what in earth are you talking about that other artists just rely on their label to hire songwriters and collaborators???" Because that's definitely not the norm for the artists I listen to or for people at the level of icon that we are comparing Swift to. Like Father John Misty and Jenny Lewis don't just do what some mega label tells them to, especially not regarding collaboration. Jack White is not following label orders. Artists like Madonna or Guns & Roses certainly got pushed around some early in their careers, but they also made their own choices and stuck to their guns when it mattered. Brian Wilson recorded Pet Sounds mostly alone in a studio and barely collaborated with his band mates. Basically ALL of the truly great artists exercise a lot of creative control over who they collaborate with.

But I get it, you mean compared to artists like Ariana Grande or something. Pop stars who mostly don't write their own music or only do so as contributors working with experienced hit writers hired by a label. If that's most of the music you listen to, I guess Taylor seems really impressive, for writing her own lyrics and exercising some agency in production.

But what you are describing is like baseline stuff. I listen to very little music produced by the kinds of machines that churn out boy bands and pop stars. I guess Swift is more original than other products of that world. But that's not where I go for music to start, so it doesn't impress me. Most of the new music I listen to are bands and artists who have always exercised a huge amount of control over their music, both before and after signing with a label.

I’m the person you’re responding to, and we are making the same point. I was making that exact point that artists with the commercial success Taylor has often stick with what is working and what the label says.

The huge artists that you mentioned that everybody knows that don’t do that… They are huge artist for a reason just like Taylor. They are following their own instincts and taking risks and that works. We are essentially making the same point.

No, we are not making the same point.

I don't think Taylor takes risks. At all. I think she is a master at doing what is working in order to maintain her large fan base, while tweaking it slightly to attract new fans. This is great for record sales but not for music.

Taylor is better than all major labels at reading the mass market and tailoring her sound, but perhaps more importantly, her aesthetic to the market. She's a marketing genius.

But her music is middling, it's not great. Because she is middling writer, musician, and performer. That she is making decisions about her music as opposed to having them imposed on her by a label is just strong evidence of how mediocre a talent she is. She is unconstrained by her label or management and still her music is okay, not great.

My point is that exercising artistic choice and freedom is not evidence in and of itself if greatness. It's the cost of entry to the debate. But even though Taylor can be in the conversation, I and many others don't think she lives up the the musical greats and will never be among them in history.

Ha! This reminds of a song…

“I’m really gonna miss you picking fights
And me
Falling for it screaming that I’m right
And you
Would hide away and find you piece of mind
With some indie record that’s much cooler than mine…”

It's funny to me that so many Swifties cite this song -- I guess one thing people identify with Taylor on is feeling very insecure about how cool or not cool their musical taste is.

The problem with Swift's music is not that it's not "cool." It's that it's mediocre.

It’s also not “cool”
It can be both.
Ps- I wrote the above lyrics and I’m not a Swiftie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

I’ve literally looked at every single song PPs have said has great lines. And I strongly stand by my interpretation of her lyrics.

I keep asking posters to provide examples and all I get is crap like: ” darling, I’m a nightmare dressed up as a daydream.” Which I’ve already pointed out is cheesy play on “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Where are these metaphorical lyrics? Please do share!

But please do share

Okay, here’s a few examples that comes to mind immediately

While you were out building other worlds, where was I?
Where's that man who'd throw blankets over my barbed wire?
I made you my temple, my mural, my sky
Now I'm begging for footnotes in the story of your life
Drawing hearts in the byline
Always taking up too much space or time

——

Spider-boy, king of thieves
Weave your little webs of opacity
My pennies made your crown
Trick me once, trick me twice
Don't you know that cash ain't the only price?
It's coming back around
And I keep my side of the street clean
You wouldn't know what I mean

—

It rains when you’re here and it rains when you’re gone

—

You call me up again just to break me like a promise, so casually cruel in the name of being honest

—

Long were the nights when my days once revolved around you
Counting my footsteps
Praying the floor won’t fall through, again

—

Fighting with a true love is boxing with no gloves, chemistry 'til it blows up, 'til there's no us

I don’t see what you see. To me all of those lyrics are derivative. I can immediately recall the other specific lyrics they remind me of. It’s not plagiarism per se, but they are reductive, nothing new or interesting to me, and I prefer the original much better. I would go line by line and describe what’s derivative about all of them, but the last time I did, I was accused of being a gaslighting abuser. But if you’re interested, I suggest you look into U2’s music. So many of Taylor’s lines are “inspired” directly by Bono.

I don't think anyone ever said--I certainly didn't--that Taylor Swift's lyrics are groundbreaking or unique? Just that they accomplish something (being easy to understand, sound pretty, and are evocative and relatable) as well as better than your made up "lyrics" that you ascribe to Taylor. I've heard like, three U2 songs in my life (not memorable, most just sounds like scatting to me) so I don't notice or care that she seems to be influenced by Bono.

I’m not huge U2 fan, either, but if you were familiar with their music, you would see that Taylor copies their lyrics. If you’d like to see an example of this go and check out “One.”

NP, and I am a huge U2 fan. Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor music, but can you point to the lyrics that are very similar? I am very familiar With the song one but I can’t think of what lyrics of Taylor you’re referring to that sound like that?

Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor’s music, so not disagreeing with you just curious if you have time to refer me to the lyrics.

I’m not a huge connoisseur of Taylor’s music either. That’s why I asked people to give me examples of her good lyrics. This is from earlier in the thread, where I first noticed the similarities to U2.

From “All Too Well”

And maybe we got lost in translation
Maybe I asked for too much
But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up
Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well
And you call me up again just to break me like a promise
So casually cruel in the name of being honest
I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well

It’s not plagiarism, but it’s so similar and derivative to the lyrics of “One,” only much worse.

Are the similarities in the room with us right now?

Seriously, what?

I’m sure you’re going to be like “if you have to ask, you’ll never know….it’s called good taste, sweaty. You don’t know music like I do” LOL

I’ll describe the similarities, no problem. But don’t refute what I say by calling me a gaslighting abuser.

Here we go:

1) “And maybe we got lost in translation”

This line invokes the exact same message as the opening lines of “One,” a confusion as to where the relationship stands and how it got that way: “Is it getting better, or do you feel the same? Did I disappoint you, or leave a bad taste in your mouth?”

The two songs start at the same point, with the same inference.

2) “Maybe I asked for too much”

This is the exact first line of verse 6 in “One”: “Did I ask too much, more than a lot.”

3) “But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up”

This copies the sentiment of verse 7 of “One”: “Love is a temple, love’s a higher ground, you ask me to enter then you make me crawl.” The “masterpiece” in “All too Well” is the “temple” and the “higher ground” in “One,” representing the perfection of love. But then the protagonist’s lover took it away “you ask me to enter, then you make me crawl” and in Taylor’s version “‘till you tore it all up.”

4) “Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well”

This line refers to the relationship history of the parties involved, which is just like verse 4 of “One.” (“Is it too late tonight to drag the past out into the light?”) The only difference is that in Taylor’s version, she doesn’t want to rehash the past, but U2’s is more ambiguous.


5) “And you call me up again just to break me like a promise”

This line has the identical sentiment of Verse 5 of “One.” The lover keeps coming back to rehash and hurt the protagonist again and again. (“Have you come here for forgiveness, have you come to raise the dead, have you come here to play Jesus to the lepers in your head?”)

6) “So casually cruel in the name of being honest”

This is like verse 1 and 3 of “One.” (“Will it make it easier now that you’ve got someone to blame?” And “You act like you’ve never had love and want me to do without.”) The protagonist’s ex self-righteously taunts him or her in both versions.

7) “I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well”

This is just like verse 6 of “One” (“You gave me nothing but it’s all I got.”) In both versions, the protagonist is left with nothing but painful memories that he or she cannot let go of, because that’s better than losing the memory of their lover.


To me these are essentially the same songs, except “One” is more uplifting and much better written. Like I said, it’s not plagiarism, but it’s the definition of derivative.

This analysis is inexplicable and perplexing. I almost feel sympathetic embarrassment for whoever wrote this. I can’t imagine how confusing life must be for such a person.
- not a swiftie

Can you specify what exactly is inexplicable and perplexing about this analysis? What you said is a generalization with no explanation. I feel more sorry for you than the thoughtful analysis you are dissing. At least she qualified her opinions with examples. What you said is just an open-ended unjustified insult. And it’s generic.

I feel sorry for you “life must be very confusing” for you, too.

Sounds pretty stupid when you hear your words regurgitated back at you, no?

Fine. Let’s do this.
“One” starts is Am and eventually revolves to CM.
“ All too well” starts and ends in CM
I’d consider them both Andante but I’m not looking up bpm. They are both 4/4
ATW - is 1564
One - is 1645 Am then 1641 CM once you resolve to the major key.
These are pretty typical pop progressions. You’ll find them everywhere.

They aren’t about similar subject matter. Like at all. I mean I guess they are about “love” but so are 98% of all pop music ever written. I haven’t listened to One in a while, but I believe it resolves to a major key musically as the lyircs resolve to some sort of resolution of making a painful relationship work.
ATW resolves with the accepted end of season, end of relationship. Starts as it ends musically. Of course that’s after major dynamic shift within the piece.
Ok. So I finally had to pull up lyrics. And honestly now I’m embarrassed for me, that I’m lying in bed doing a comp theory assignment for zero credit. But I’m in it now… so here goes.
While there is similar rhythmic prose happening between the pieces, the songs aren’t really structured the same.
“One” is verse chorus verse chorus
ATW is verse verse couplet chorus
“One” is vague and broad. Who is taking? Who are they taking to? Is it people in general? None of this is bad. It speaks to many. It’s relatable.
ATW- highly specific. The song progresses through seasons and the music whisks along with. You see the couple on a fall trip. You understand the closeness. The smell of her scarf. He’s wearing plaid and kept her scarf. Not many words written for how much information is imparted and the picture that is painted for you.
“ cause there we are again, in the middle of the night. We’re dancing around the kitchen in the refrigerator light”
Super specific super clear. You can see it.
The song continues to unspool and here is where I can see another similarity between One. Both songs feel carefully musically wound. Like a spool of wire. They pull evenly and perfectly. They both cleanly build upon themselves to full power ballads. There is real catharsis happening and they really make you feel it. Taylor is good, but Bono really nails this for me. 90’s teen me is super emo listening to this in high school. I’m right back there when I hear him wailing on the bridge.
But Taylor is known for writing a good bridge and she nails it in ATW. She’s hysterical in her relationship and musically she captures the heaving sobs of heartbreak. Again super specific.
I’m trying to remember the end of “One”. I believe it stays in CM… I don’t think it’s a fade out. I think they smash on tonic for the finish. Forgive me if I’m wrong.
ATW is repetitive fade out. She’s haunted by the death of the relationship. The picture might as well be a movie. You see the snow falling. Again crazy clear.
These songs have a few similarities.
Like they both are in the same key for a bit.
They are both similar tempi in 4/4…
They both are about “ love”…
They both build to an emotional and musical crescendo.

But these are some of the hallmarks of all songwriting. All music.
All Too Well is probably inspired by something. I highly doubt it’s One.

I was talking about the lyrics. Taylor didn’t write the music, she wrote the lyrics. The music was written by Liz Rose. Stick to the subject and why you said the PP’s interpretation of the lyrics playing off those in “One” was “inexplicable” and “perplexing.” No one is arguing that Liz Rose can write music, but great way to change the topic.

Honey, it’s a song. Not a poem. This is the topic. Basic song structure is about lyrics. You can’t ignore the form of a song.
1) Rose has a co writing credit on the final edit. I don’t know why you think TS only wrote the lyrics. That’s an absurd assumption.
2) “Perplexing” because that analysis is … just not an analysis. At all.
“TS wrote this lyric and Bono has a similar sentiment at the same point in his song?” Or worse in a completely different part of Bono’s song he talks about asking for too much , and TS also mentions asking for too much, just not in the same way, same place, similar lyric, rhythm or anything….
WHAT?!?!???
That’s not analysis. No observation of rhythm, rhyme, or song structure?
Of course that’s difficult, because these songs aren’t particularly similar other than tonally. And frankly writing in C major/A minor is hardly something to pin your argument to.
Although I find it remarkable that someone would immediately draw a comparison between the pieces when one starts in the minor key and the other does not.

And frankly the sentiment of “asked me to enter and then you make me crawl, and I can’t keep holding on”
Vs “ maybe this thing was a masterpiece till we tore it all up. Running scared, I was there I remember it.”
- these aren’t similar. Bono is talking his diminishment to keep this thing, and TS is talking about something that is no longer kept.
The sentiment is “asking for too much” in both songs? Ok…. That’s a pillar of writing unrequited love songs. Are the actual lyrics similar? Not even really.
So I say again perplexing.
If the person making this analysis really sees these things as similar, what else do they see patterns and links in?
I’m concerned for them.

Taylor didn’t write the music, Liz Rose did and anyone who can read between the lines appreciates that. That’s why Taylor’s music changes depending on whom she’s “collaborating” with. Her Liz Rose songs are completely different than her Jack Antonoff songs, not because she grew as a composer, but because she hired a new one to write the music. Taylor’s contribution to “All to Well” was the lyrics, the “poem” part, as you call it.

And it’s not very original. I had even heard the song before this thread because I find Taylor’s voice to be very irritating and raspy. I just don’t like the way it sounds, but PPs were going on and on about what an amazing lyricist she is. I asked for examples and someone provided “All Too Well” as one. I was going on lyrics alone, not on the overall song, because I had never heard it before. The lyrics, just the lyrics, are a poor imitation of those in “One.”

That’s the thing about Taylor, when you peel the layers, you see that underneath there isn’t very much going on. I’m not debating Liz Rose’s songwriting skills. I’m talking about Taylor’s alleged lyricist ones. They are completely lacking and very derivative.

So you’re just gonna make up facts and stick with it? Cool cool cool.
The song was written on the road by Swift.
Rose was brought in after the fact to help cobble it down to its original iteration and fine tune. Rose didn’t “compose the music”.
TS isn’t an amazing musician but she collaborates really well with others. That is a talent on its own.
But frankly her “eras” actually don’t sound all that different. She has a sound. It’s actually very “adult contemporary”. It surprises me that so many young people love it.
The lyrics of ATW have very little in common with One. There are words that all love songs utilize. You will be hard pressed to find POPULAR love songs that aren’t derivative.
But you don’t seem to understand that songs have structure, rhythm, melody, harmony…
ATW is more than the written words but even if it was and you looked at only text side by side with One, these pieces aren’t really similar. They aren’t even talking about the same thing.
Perplexing.

Taylor does have a sound, I won’t argue that, as did the NKOB and the Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears (who I’m much more a fan of than Taylor). It’s that generic teen pop sound. What distinguishes Taylor is her marketing. Her schtick from the start was that she wasn’t just another teen singer, she co-wrote the music, too. But it was always just the lyrics. She’s a brand, for her composers, too. I’m sure that for “All Too Well” there’s a huge fabricated back story and more marketing to sell a product, but the truth is that Liz Rose wrote the music for Taylor, just like all of her “collaborators” write the music. It’s the same as how ghostwriters write most of James Patterson’s stuff. Most books are ghostwritten these days. It’s a sad reflection of the entertainment industry. Artists cannot market themselves, they resort to putting someone else’s name on their product so they can earn a living. That’s life.

The lyrics, sure, those are all hers, but if you believe that Taylor has composed any of her own music, I have a bridge to sell you….Real musicians can write music without a constant string of “collaborators.” Do you think Prince needed other people to help him edit down a song? Nope. I applaud her and her team for the marketing. They’ve obviously done a fabulous job with that. The music, not so much. It’s still just the typical teen pop sound, even in her 30s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

I’ve literally looked at every single song PPs have said has great lines. And I strongly stand by my interpretation of her lyrics.

I keep asking posters to provide examples and all I get is crap like: ” darling, I’m a nightmare dressed up as a daydream.” Which I’ve already pointed out is cheesy play on “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Where are these metaphorical lyrics? Please do share!

But please do share

Okay, here’s a few examples that comes to mind immediately

While you were out building other worlds, where was I?
Where's that man who'd throw blankets over my barbed wire?
I made you my temple, my mural, my sky
Now I'm begging for footnotes in the story of your life
Drawing hearts in the byline
Always taking up too much space or time

——

Spider-boy, king of thieves
Weave your little webs of opacity
My pennies made your crown
Trick me once, trick me twice
Don't you know that cash ain't the only price?
It's coming back around
And I keep my side of the street clean
You wouldn't know what I mean

—

It rains when you’re here and it rains when you’re gone

—

You call me up again just to break me like a promise, so casually cruel in the name of being honest

—

Long were the nights when my days once revolved around you
Counting my footsteps
Praying the floor won’t fall through, again

—

Fighting with a true love is boxing with no gloves, chemistry 'til it blows up, 'til there's no us

I don’t see what you see. To me all of those lyrics are derivative. I can immediately recall the other specific lyrics they remind me of. It’s not plagiarism per se, but they are reductive, nothing new or interesting to me, and I prefer the original much better. I would go line by line and describe what’s derivative about all of them, but the last time I did, I was accused of being a gaslighting abuser. But if you’re interested, I suggest you look into U2’s music. So many of Taylor’s lines are “inspired” directly by Bono.

I don't think anyone ever said--I certainly didn't--that Taylor Swift's lyrics are groundbreaking or unique? Just that they accomplish something (being easy to understand, sound pretty, and are evocative and relatable) as well as better than your made up "lyrics" that you ascribe to Taylor. I've heard like, three U2 songs in my life (not memorable, most just sounds like scatting to me) so I don't notice or care that she seems to be influenced by Bono.

I’m not huge U2 fan, either, but if you were familiar with their music, you would see that Taylor copies their lyrics. If you’d like to see an example of this go and check out “One.”

NP, and I am a huge U2 fan. Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor music, but can you point to the lyrics that are very similar? I am very familiar With the song one but I can’t think of what lyrics of Taylor you’re referring to that sound like that?

Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor’s music, so not disagreeing with you just curious if you have time to refer me to the lyrics.

I’m not a huge connoisseur of Taylor’s music either. That’s why I asked people to give me examples of her good lyrics. This is from earlier in the thread, where I first noticed the similarities to U2.

From “All Too Well”

And maybe we got lost in translation
Maybe I asked for too much
But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up
Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well
And you call me up again just to break me like a promise
So casually cruel in the name of being honest
I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well

It’s not plagiarism, but it’s so similar and derivative to the lyrics of “One,” only much worse.

Are the similarities in the room with us right now?

Seriously, what?

I’m sure you’re going to be like “if you have to ask, you’ll never know….it’s called good taste, sweaty. You don’t know music like I do” LOL

I’ll describe the similarities, no problem. But don’t refute what I say by calling me a gaslighting abuser.

Here we go:

1) “And maybe we got lost in translation”

This line invokes the exact same message as the opening lines of “One,” a confusion as to where the relationship stands and how it got that way: “Is it getting better, or do you feel the same? Did I disappoint you, or leave a bad taste in your mouth?”

The two songs start at the same point, with the same inference.

2) “Maybe I asked for too much”

This is the exact first line of verse 6 in “One”: “Did I ask too much, more than a lot.”

3) “But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up”

This copies the sentiment of verse 7 of “One”: “Love is a temple, love’s a higher ground, you ask me to enter then you make me crawl.” The “masterpiece” in “All too Well” is the “temple” and the “higher ground” in “One,” representing the perfection of love. But then the protagonist’s lover took it away “you ask me to enter, then you make me crawl” and in Taylor’s version “‘till you tore it all up.”

4) “Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well”

This line refers to the relationship history of the parties involved, which is just like verse 4 of “One.” (“Is it too late tonight to drag the past out into the light?”) The only difference is that in Taylor’s version, she doesn’t want to rehash the past, but U2’s is more ambiguous.


5) “And you call me up again just to break me like a promise”

This line has the identical sentiment of Verse 5 of “One.” The lover keeps coming back to rehash and hurt the protagonist again and again. (“Have you come here for forgiveness, have you come to raise the dead, have you come here to play Jesus to the lepers in your head?”)

6) “So casually cruel in the name of being honest”

This is like verse 1 and 3 of “One.” (“Will it make it easier now that you’ve got someone to blame?” And “You act like you’ve never had love and want me to do without.”) The protagonist’s ex self-righteously taunts him or her in both versions.

7) “I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well”

This is just like verse 6 of “One” (“You gave me nothing but it’s all I got.”) In both versions, the protagonist is left with nothing but painful memories that he or she cannot let go of, because that’s better than losing the memory of their lover.


To me these are essentially the same songs, except “One” is more uplifting and much better written. Like I said, it’s not plagiarism, but it’s the definition of derivative.

This analysis is inexplicable and perplexing. I almost feel sympathetic embarrassment for whoever wrote this. I can’t imagine how confusing life must be for such a person.
- not a swiftie

Can you specify what exactly is inexplicable and perplexing about this analysis? What you said is a generalization with no explanation. I feel more sorry for you than the thoughtful analysis you are dissing. At least she qualified her opinions with examples. What you said is just an open-ended unjustified insult. And it’s generic.

I feel sorry for you “life must be very confusing” for you, too.

Sounds pretty stupid when you hear your words regurgitated back at you, no?

Fine. Let’s do this.
“One” starts is Am and eventually revolves to CM.
“ All too well” starts and ends in CM
I’d consider them both Andante but I’m not looking up bpm. They are both 4/4
ATW - is 1564
One - is 1645 Am then 1641 CM once you resolve to the major key.
These are pretty typical pop progressions. You’ll find them everywhere.

They aren’t about similar subject matter. Like at all. I mean I guess they are about “love” but so are 98% of all pop music ever written. I haven’t listened to One in a while, but I believe it resolves to a major key musically as the lyircs resolve to some sort of resolution of making a painful relationship work.
ATW resolves with the accepted end of season, end of relationship. Starts as it ends musically. Of course that’s after major dynamic shift within the piece.
Ok. So I finally had to pull up lyrics. And honestly now I’m embarrassed for me, that I’m lying in bed doing a comp theory assignment for zero credit. But I’m in it now… so here goes.
While there is similar rhythmic prose happening between the pieces, the songs aren’t really structured the same.
“One” is verse chorus verse chorus
ATW is verse verse couplet chorus
“One” is vague and broad. Who is taking? Who are they taking to? Is it people in general? None of this is bad. It speaks to many. It’s relatable.
ATW- highly specific. The song progresses through seasons and the music whisks along with. You see the couple on a fall trip. You understand the closeness. The smell of her scarf. He’s wearing plaid and kept her scarf. Not many words written for how much information is imparted and the picture that is painted for you.
“ cause there we are again, in the middle of the night. We’re dancing around the kitchen in the refrigerator light”
Super specific super clear. You can see it.
The song continues to unspool and here is where I can see another similarity between One. Both songs feel carefully musically wound. Like a spool of wire. They pull evenly and perfectly. They both cleanly build upon themselves to full power ballads. There is real catharsis happening and they really make you feel it. Taylor is good, but Bono really nails this for me. 90’s teen me is super emo listening to this in high school. I’m right back there when I hear him wailing on the bridge.
But Taylor is known for writing a good bridge and she nails it in ATW. She’s hysterical in her relationship and musically she captures the heaving sobs of heartbreak. Again super specific.
I’m trying to remember the end of “One”. I believe it stays in CM… I don’t think it’s a fade out. I think they smash on tonic for the finish. Forgive me if I’m wrong.
ATW is repetitive fade out. She’s haunted by the death of the relationship. The picture might as well be a movie. You see the snow falling. Again crazy clear.
These songs have a few similarities.
Like they both are in the same key for a bit.
They are both similar tempi in 4/4…
They both are about “ love”…
They both build to an emotional and musical crescendo.

But these are some of the hallmarks of all songwriting. All music.
All Too Well is probably inspired by something. I highly doubt it’s One.

I was talking about the lyrics. Taylor didn’t write the music, she wrote the lyrics. The music was written by Liz Rose. Stick to the subject and why you said the PP’s interpretation of the lyrics playing off those in “One” was “inexplicable” and “perplexing.” No one is arguing that Liz Rose can write music, but great way to change the topic.

Honey, it’s a song. Not a poem. This is the topic. Basic song structure is about lyrics. You can’t ignore the form of a song.
1) Rose has a co writing credit on the final edit. I don’t know why you think TS only wrote the lyrics. That’s an absurd assumption.
2) “Perplexing” because that analysis is … just not an analysis. At all.
“TS wrote this lyric and Bono has a similar sentiment at the same point in his song?” Or worse in a completely different part of Bono’s song he talks about asking for too much , and TS also mentions asking for too much, just not in the same way, same place, similar lyric, rhythm or anything….
WHAT?!?!???
That’s not analysis. No observation of rhythm, rhyme, or song structure?
Of course that’s difficult, because these songs aren’t particularly similar other than tonally. And frankly writing in C major/A minor is hardly something to pin your argument to.
Although I find it remarkable that someone would immediately draw a comparison between the pieces when one starts in the minor key and the other does not.

And frankly the sentiment of “asked me to enter and then you make me crawl, and I can’t keep holding on”
Vs “ maybe this thing was a masterpiece till we tore it all up. Running scared, I was there I remember it.”
- these aren’t similar. Bono is talking his diminishment to keep this thing, and TS is talking about something that is no longer kept.
The sentiment is “asking for too much” in both songs? Ok…. That’s a pillar of writing unrequited love songs. Are the actual lyrics similar? Not even really.
So I say again perplexing.
If the person making this analysis really sees these things as similar, what else do they see patterns and links in?
I’m concerned for them.

Taylor didn’t write the music, Liz Rose did and anyone who can read between the lines appreciates that. That’s why Taylor’s music changes depending on whom she’s “collaborating” with. Her Liz Rose songs are completely different than her Jack Antonoff songs, not because she grew as a composer, but because she hired a new one to write the music. Taylor’s contribution to “All to Well” was the lyrics, the “poem” part, as you call it.

And it’s not very original. I had even heard the song before this thread because I find Taylor’s voice to be very irritating and raspy. I just don’t like the way it sounds, but PPs were going on and on about what an amazing lyricist she is. I asked for examples and someone provided “All Too Well” as one. I was going on lyrics alone, not on the overall song, because I had never heard it before. The lyrics, just the lyrics, are a poor imitation of those in “One.”

That’s the thing about Taylor, when you peel the layers, you see that underneath there isn’t very much going on. I’m not debating Liz Rose’s songwriting skills. I’m talking about Taylor’s alleged lyricist ones. They are completely lacking and very derivative.

So you’re just gonna make up facts and stick with it? Cool cool cool.
The song was written on the road by Swift.
Rose was brought in after the fact to help cobble it down to its original iteration and fine tune. Rose didn’t “compose the music”.
TS isn’t an amazing musician but she collaborates really well with others. That is a talent on its own.
But frankly her “eras” actually don’t sound all that different. She has a sound. It’s actually very “adult contemporary”. It surprises me that so many young people love it.
The lyrics of ATW have very little in common with One. There are words that all love songs utilize. You will be hard pressed to find POPULAR love songs that aren’t derivative.
But you don’t seem to understand that songs have structure, rhythm, melody, harmony…
ATW is more than the written words but even if it was and you looked at only text side by side with One, these pieces aren’t really similar. They aren’t even talking about the same thing.
Perplexing.

Taylor does have a sound, I won’t argue that, as did the NKOB and the Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears (who I’m much more a fan of than Taylor). It’s that generic teen pop sound. What distinguishes Taylor is her marketing. Her schtick from the start was that she wasn’t just another teen singer, she co-wrote the music, too. But it was always just the lyrics. She’s a brand, for her composers, too. I’m sure that for “All Too Well” there’s a huge fabricated back story and more marketing to sell a product, but the truth is that Liz Rose wrote the music for Taylor, just like all of her “collaborators” write the music. It’s the same as how ghostwriters write most of James Patterson’s stuff. Most books are ghostwritten these days. It’s a sad reflection of the entertainment industry. Artists cannot market themselves, they resort to putting someone else’s name on their product so they can earn a living. That’s life.

The lyrics, sure, those are all hers, but if you believe that Taylor has composed any of her own music, I have a bridge to sell you….Real musicians can write music without a constant string of “collaborators.” Do you think Prince needed other people to help him edit down a song? Nope. I applaud her and her team for the marketing. They’ve obviously done a fabulous job with that. The music, not so much. It’s still just the typical teen pop sound, even in her 30s.

Ok. You have cracked it. It’s all a marketing lie. Cool cool.
I mean they have recorded sound checks of her working the song on her tour, but ok. Sure. She only writes lyrics. 👍
One and ATW are the same song.
Sure.
Look I’m not really a fan, and I think she collaborates a ton, but diminishing what she does is sort of pathetic, don’t you think?
I mean if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.
Her music is fine, with a few real stand outs. The prolific nature is astounding.
This current tour is something else. She dreamed up and executed something that has impressed and amazed her peers. It’s dazzling ( I’m married to a scenic carpenter and he is floored by it)
But she captures something with her writing. When I hear it I’m surprised it hasn’t been written before. Like the song always existed and she just uncovered it. I get a similar feeling when I watch a good movie with mass appeal, or read a well reviewed best seller.
She’s interesting, because she’s so weirdly normal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

I’ve literally looked at every single song PPs have said has great lines. And I strongly stand by my interpretation of her lyrics.

I keep asking posters to provide examples and all I get is crap like: ” darling, I’m a nightmare dressed up as a daydream.” Which I’ve already pointed out is cheesy play on “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Where are these metaphorical lyrics? Please do share!

But please do share

Okay, here’s a few examples that comes to mind immediately

While you were out building other worlds, where was I?
Where's that man who'd throw blankets over my barbed wire?
I made you my temple, my mural, my sky
Now I'm begging for footnotes in the story of your life
Drawing hearts in the byline
Always taking up too much space or time

——

Spider-boy, king of thieves
Weave your little webs of opacity
My pennies made your crown
Trick me once, trick me twice
Don't you know that cash ain't the only price?
It's coming back around
And I keep my side of the street clean
You wouldn't know what I mean

—

It rains when you’re here and it rains when you’re gone

—

You call me up again just to break me like a promise, so casually cruel in the name of being honest

—

Long were the nights when my days once revolved around you
Counting my footsteps
Praying the floor won’t fall through, again

—

Fighting with a true love is boxing with no gloves, chemistry 'til it blows up, 'til there's no us

I don’t see what you see. To me all of those lyrics are derivative. I can immediately recall the other specific lyrics they remind me of. It’s not plagiarism per se, but they are reductive, nothing new or interesting to me, and I prefer the original much better. I would go line by line and describe what’s derivative about all of them, but the last time I did, I was accused of being a gaslighting abuser. But if you’re interested, I suggest you look into U2’s music. So many of Taylor’s lines are “inspired” directly by Bono.

I don't think anyone ever said--I certainly didn't--that Taylor Swift's lyrics are groundbreaking or unique? Just that they accomplish something (being easy to understand, sound pretty, and are evocative and relatable) as well as better than your made up "lyrics" that you ascribe to Taylor. I've heard like, three U2 songs in my life (not memorable, most just sounds like scatting to me) so I don't notice or care that she seems to be influenced by Bono.

I’m not huge U2 fan, either, but if you were familiar with their music, you would see that Taylor copies their lyrics. If you’d like to see an example of this go and check out “One.”

NP, and I am a huge U2 fan. Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor music, but can you point to the lyrics that are very similar? I am very familiar With the song one but I can’t think of what lyrics of Taylor you’re referring to that sound like that?

Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor’s music, so not disagreeing with you just curious if you have time to refer me to the lyrics.

I’m not a huge connoisseur of Taylor’s music either. That’s why I asked people to give me examples of her good lyrics. This is from earlier in the thread, where I first noticed the similarities to U2.

From “All Too Well”

And maybe we got lost in translation
Maybe I asked for too much
But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up
Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well
And you call me up again just to break me like a promise
So casually cruel in the name of being honest
I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well

It’s not plagiarism, but it’s so similar and derivative to the lyrics of “One,” only much worse.

Are the similarities in the room with us right now?

Seriously, what?

I’m sure you’re going to be like “if you have to ask, you’ll never know….it’s called good taste, sweaty. You don’t know music like I do” LOL

I’ll describe the similarities, no problem. But don’t refute what I say by calling me a gaslighting abuser.

Here we go:

1) “And maybe we got lost in translation”

This line invokes the exact same message as the opening lines of “One,” a confusion as to where the relationship stands and how it got that way: “Is it getting better, or do you feel the same? Did I disappoint you, or leave a bad taste in your mouth?”

The two songs start at the same point, with the same inference.

2) “Maybe I asked for too much”

This is the exact first line of verse 6 in “One”: “Did I ask too much, more than a lot.”

3) “But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up”

This copies the sentiment of verse 7 of “One”: “Love is a temple, love’s a higher ground, you ask me to enter then you make me crawl.” The “masterpiece” in “All too Well” is the “temple” and the “higher ground” in “One,” representing the perfection of love. But then the protagonist’s lover took it away “you ask me to enter, then you make me crawl” and in Taylor’s version “‘till you tore it all up.”

4) “Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well”

This line refers to the relationship history of the parties involved, which is just like verse 4 of “One.” (“Is it too late tonight to drag the past out into the light?”) The only difference is that in Taylor’s version, she doesn’t want to rehash the past, but U2’s is more ambiguous.


5) “And you call me up again just to break me like a promise”

This line has the identical sentiment of Verse 5 of “One.” The lover keeps coming back to rehash and hurt the protagonist again and again. (“Have you come here for forgiveness, have you come to raise the dead, have you come here to play Jesus to the lepers in your head?”)

6) “So casually cruel in the name of being honest”

This is like verse 1 and 3 of “One.” (“Will it make it easier now that you’ve got someone to blame?” And “You act like you’ve never had love and want me to do without.”) The protagonist’s ex self-righteously taunts him or her in both versions.

7) “I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well”

This is just like verse 6 of “One” (“You gave me nothing but it’s all I got.”) In both versions, the protagonist is left with nothing but painful memories that he or she cannot let go of, because that’s better than losing the memory of their lover.


To me these are essentially the same songs, except “One” is more uplifting and much better written. Like I said, it’s not plagiarism, but it’s the definition of derivative.

This analysis is inexplicable and perplexing. I almost feel sympathetic embarrassment for whoever wrote this. I can’t imagine how confusing life must be for such a person.
- not a swiftie

Can you specify what exactly is inexplicable and perplexing about this analysis? What you said is a generalization with no explanation. I feel more sorry for you than the thoughtful analysis you are dissing. At least she qualified her opinions with examples. What you said is just an open-ended unjustified insult. And it’s generic.

I feel sorry for you “life must be very confusing” for you, too.

Sounds pretty stupid when you hear your words regurgitated back at you, no?

Fine. Let’s do this.
“One” starts is Am and eventually revolves to CM.
“ All too well” starts and ends in CM
I’d consider them both Andante but I’m not looking up bpm. They are both 4/4
ATW - is 1564
One - is 1645 Am then 1641 CM once you resolve to the major key.
These are pretty typical pop progressions. You’ll find them everywhere.

They aren’t about similar subject matter. Like at all. I mean I guess they are about “love” but so are 98% of all pop music ever written. I haven’t listened to One in a while, but I believe it resolves to a major key musically as the lyircs resolve to some sort of resolution of making a painful relationship work.
ATW resolves with the accepted end of season, end of relationship. Starts as it ends musically. Of course that’s after major dynamic shift within the piece.
Ok. So I finally had to pull up lyrics. And honestly now I’m embarrassed for me, that I’m lying in bed doing a comp theory assignment for zero credit. But I’m in it now… so here goes.
While there is similar rhythmic prose happening between the pieces, the songs aren’t really structured the same.
“One” is verse chorus verse chorus
ATW is verse verse couplet chorus
“One” is vague and broad. Who is taking? Who are they taking to? Is it people in general? None of this is bad. It speaks to many. It’s relatable.
ATW- highly specific. The song progresses through seasons and the music whisks along with. You see the couple on a fall trip. You understand the closeness. The smell of her scarf. He’s wearing plaid and kept her scarf. Not many words written for how much information is imparted and the picture that is painted for you.
“ cause there we are again, in the middle of the night. We’re dancing around the kitchen in the refrigerator light”
Super specific super clear. You can see it.
The song continues to unspool and here is where I can see another similarity between One. Both songs feel carefully musically wound. Like a spool of wire. They pull evenly and perfectly. They both cleanly build upon themselves to full power ballads. There is real catharsis happening and they really make you feel it. Taylor is good, but Bono really nails this for me. 90’s teen me is super emo listening to this in high school. I’m right back there when I hear him wailing on the bridge.
But Taylor is known for writing a good bridge and she nails it in ATW. She’s hysterical in her relationship and musically she captures the heaving sobs of heartbreak. Again super specific.
I’m trying to remember the end of “One”. I believe it stays in CM… I don’t think it’s a fade out. I think they smash on tonic for the finish. Forgive me if I’m wrong.
ATW is repetitive fade out. She’s haunted by the death of the relationship. The picture might as well be a movie. You see the snow falling. Again crazy clear.
These songs have a few similarities.
Like they both are in the same key for a bit.
They are both similar tempi in 4/4…
They both are about “ love”…
They both build to an emotional and musical crescendo.

But these are some of the hallmarks of all songwriting. All music.
All Too Well is probably inspired by something. I highly doubt it’s One.

I was talking about the lyrics. Taylor didn’t write the music, she wrote the lyrics. The music was written by Liz Rose. Stick to the subject and why you said the PP’s interpretation of the lyrics playing off those in “One” was “inexplicable” and “perplexing.” No one is arguing that Liz Rose can write music, but great way to change the topic.

Honey, it’s a song. Not a poem. This is the topic. Basic song structure is about lyrics. You can’t ignore the form of a song.
1) Rose has a co writing credit on the final edit. I don’t know why you think TS only wrote the lyrics. That’s an absurd assumption.
2) “Perplexing” because that analysis is … just not an analysis. At all.
“TS wrote this lyric and Bono has a similar sentiment at the same point in his song?” Or worse in a completely different part of Bono’s song he talks about asking for too much , and TS also mentions asking for too much, just not in the same way, same place, similar lyric, rhythm or anything….
WHAT?!?!???
That’s not analysis. No observation of rhythm, rhyme, or song structure?
Of course that’s difficult, because these songs aren’t particularly similar other than tonally. And frankly writing in C major/A minor is hardly something to pin your argument to.
Although I find it remarkable that someone would immediately draw a comparison between the pieces when one starts in the minor key and the other does not.

And frankly the sentiment of “asked me to enter and then you make me crawl, and I can’t keep holding on”
Vs “ maybe this thing was a masterpiece till we tore it all up. Running scared, I was there I remember it.”
- these aren’t similar. Bono is talking his diminishment to keep this thing, and TS is talking about something that is no longer kept.
The sentiment is “asking for too much” in both songs? Ok…. That’s a pillar of writing unrequited love songs. Are the actual lyrics similar? Not even really.
So I say again perplexing.
If the person making this analysis really sees these things as similar, what else do they see patterns and links in?
I’m concerned for them.

Taylor didn’t write the music, Liz Rose did and anyone who can read between the lines appreciates that. That’s why Taylor’s music changes depending on whom she’s “collaborating” with. Her Liz Rose songs are completely different than her Jack Antonoff songs, not because she grew as a composer, but because she hired a new one to write the music. Taylor’s contribution to “All to Well” was the lyrics, the “poem” part, as you call it.

And it’s not very original. I had even heard the song before this thread because I find Taylor’s voice to be very irritating and raspy. I just don’t like the way it sounds, but PPs were going on and on about what an amazing lyricist she is. I asked for examples and someone provided “All Too Well” as one. I was going on lyrics alone, not on the overall song, because I had never heard it before. The lyrics, just the lyrics, are a poor imitation of those in “One.”

That’s the thing about Taylor, when you peel the layers, you see that underneath there isn’t very much going on. I’m not debating Liz Rose’s songwriting skills. I’m talking about Taylor’s alleged lyricist ones. They are completely lacking and very derivative.

So you’re just gonna make up facts and stick with it? Cool cool cool.
The song was written on the road by Swift.
Rose was brought in after the fact to help cobble it down to its original iteration and fine tune. Rose didn’t “compose the music”.
TS isn’t an amazing musician but she collaborates really well with others. That is a talent on its own.
But frankly her “eras” actually don’t sound all that different. She has a sound. It’s actually very “adult contemporary”. It surprises me that so many young people love it.
The lyrics of ATW have very little in common with One. There are words that all love songs utilize. You will be hard pressed to find POPULAR love songs that aren’t derivative.
But you don’t seem to understand that songs have structure, rhythm, melody, harmony…
ATW is more than the written words but even if it was and you looked at only text side by side with One, these pieces aren’t really similar. They aren’t even talking about the same thing.
Perplexing.

Taylor does have a sound, I won’t argue that, as did the NKOB and the Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears (who I’m much more a fan of than Taylor). It’s that generic teen pop sound. What distinguishes Taylor is her marketing. Her schtick from the start was that she wasn’t just another teen singer, she co-wrote the music, too. But it was always just the lyrics. She’s a brand, for her composers, too. I’m sure that for “All Too Well” there’s a huge fabricated back story and more marketing to sell a product, but the truth is that Liz Rose wrote the music for Taylor, just like all of her “collaborators” write the music. It’s the same as how ghostwriters write most of James Patterson’s stuff. Most books are ghostwritten these days. It’s a sad reflection of the entertainment industry. Artists cannot market themselves, they resort to putting someone else’s name on their product so they can earn a living. That’s life.

The lyrics, sure, those are all hers, but if you believe that Taylor has composed any of her own music, I have a bridge to sell you….Real musicians can write music without a constant string of “collaborators.” Do you think Prince needed other people to help him edit down a song? Nope. I applaud her and her team for the marketing. They’ve obviously done a fabulous job with that. The music, not so much. It’s still just the typical teen pop sound, even in her 30s.

Ok. You have cracked it. It’s all a marketing lie. Cool cool.
I mean they have recorded sound checks of her working the song on her tour, but ok. Sure. She only writes lyrics. 👍
One and ATW are the same song.
Sure.
Look I’m not really a fan, and I think she collaborates a ton, but diminishing what she does is sort of pathetic, don’t you think?
I mean if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.
Her music is fine, with a few real stand outs. The prolific nature is astounding.
This current tour is something else. She dreamed up and executed something that has impressed and amazed her peers. It’s dazzling ( I’m married to a scenic carpenter and he is floored by it)
But she captures something with her writing. When I hear it I’m surprised it hasn’t been written before. Like the song always existed and she just uncovered it. I get a similar feeling when I watch a good movie with mass appeal, or read a well reviewed best seller.
She’s interesting, because she’s so weirdly normal.

YESSS. Agree with so much of this.

I’ll just add that in the age of streaming and social media and having everything even our newsfeeds curated for us so we don’t have to step outside our lane if we don’t want, Taylor also has appeal across a lot of age groups. My family has very different tastes in things and while some things we come together for - concerts or movie nights or whatever - we all dig Taylor to some degree and especially for moms and daughters it’s a fun bonding opportunity.

[Anonymous]

I really don't care if people hate her music. I find it very catchy. I went to her movie/concert thing with my 8 year old daughter and wasn't embarrassed by any nasty grinding or inappropriate costumes. I'm not a die hard fan but I do enjoy her work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really don't care if people hate her music. I find it very catchy. I went to her movie/concert thing with my 8 year old daughter and wasn't embarrassed by any nasty grinding or inappropriate costumes. I'm not a die hard fan but I do enjoy her work.

Yep, there is a doubling of fans because a bunch are parents who are enjoying taking their kids to Swift's concerts and movie. It's like when I took my kids to Disney on Ice. I knew it would be appropriate and targeted to a younger crowd. I liked the ice show myself.

Taylor is like a Disney attraction--popular, expensive, and easy for parents to buy into because it's pretty harmless for what it is. And we still sing along with Frozen songs.

Taylor = Elsa+ for this generation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

I’ve literally looked at every single song PPs have said has great lines. And I strongly stand by my interpretation of her lyrics.

I keep asking posters to provide examples and all I get is crap like: ” darling, I’m a nightmare dressed up as a daydream.” Which I’ve already pointed out is cheesy play on “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Where are these metaphorical lyrics? Please do share!

But please do share

Okay, here’s a few examples that comes to mind immediately

While you were out building other worlds, where was I?
Where's that man who'd throw blankets over my barbed wire?
I made you my temple, my mural, my sky
Now I'm begging for footnotes in the story of your life
Drawing hearts in the byline
Always taking up too much space or time

——

Spider-boy, king of thieves
Weave your little webs of opacity
My pennies made your crown
Trick me once, trick me twice
Don't you know that cash ain't the only price?
It's coming back around
And I keep my side of the street clean
You wouldn't know what I mean

—

It rains when you’re here and it rains when you’re gone

—

You call me up again just to break me like a promise, so casually cruel in the name of being honest

—

Long were the nights when my days once revolved around you
Counting my footsteps
Praying the floor won’t fall through, again

—

Fighting with a true love is boxing with no gloves, chemistry 'til it blows up, 'til there's no us

I don’t see what you see. To me all of those lyrics are derivative. I can immediately recall the other specific lyrics they remind me of. It’s not plagiarism per se, but they are reductive, nothing new or interesting to me, and I prefer the original much better. I would go line by line and describe what’s derivative about all of them, but the last time I did, I was accused of being a gaslighting abuser. But if you’re interested, I suggest you look into U2’s music. So many of Taylor’s lines are “inspired” directly by Bono.

I don't think anyone ever said--I certainly didn't--that Taylor Swift's lyrics are groundbreaking or unique? Just that they accomplish something (being easy to understand, sound pretty, and are evocative and relatable) as well as better than your made up "lyrics" that you ascribe to Taylor. I've heard like, three U2 songs in my life (not memorable, most just sounds like scatting to me) so I don't notice or care that she seems to be influenced by Bono.

I’m not huge U2 fan, either, but if you were familiar with their music, you would see that Taylor copies their lyrics. If you’d like to see an example of this go and check out “One.”

NP, and I am a huge U2 fan. Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor music, but can you point to the lyrics that are very similar? I am very familiar With the song one but I can’t think of what lyrics of Taylor you’re referring to that sound like that?

Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor’s music, so not disagreeing with you just curious if you have time to refer me to the lyrics.

I’m not a huge connoisseur of Taylor’s music either. That’s why I asked people to give me examples of her good lyrics. This is from earlier in the thread, where I first noticed the similarities to U2.

From “All Too Well”

And maybe we got lost in translation
Maybe I asked for too much
But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up
Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well
And you call me up again just to break me like a promise
So casually cruel in the name of being honest
I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well

It’s not plagiarism, but it’s so similar and derivative to the lyrics of “One,” only much worse.

Are the similarities in the room with us right now?

Seriously, what?

I’m sure you’re going to be like “if you have to ask, you’ll never know….it’s called good taste, sweaty. You don’t know music like I do” LOL

I’ll describe the similarities, no problem. But don’t refute what I say by calling me a gaslighting abuser.

Here we go:

1) “And maybe we got lost in translation”

This line invokes the exact same message as the opening lines of “One,” a confusion as to where the relationship stands and how it got that way: “Is it getting better, or do you feel the same? Did I disappoint you, or leave a bad taste in your mouth?”

The two songs start at the same point, with the same inference.

2) “Maybe I asked for too much”

This is the exact first line of verse 6 in “One”: “Did I ask too much, more than a lot.”

3) “But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up”

This copies the sentiment of verse 7 of “One”: “Love is a temple, love’s a higher ground, you ask me to enter then you make me crawl.” The “masterpiece” in “All too Well” is the “temple” and the “higher ground” in “One,” representing the perfection of love. But then the protagonist’s lover took it away “you ask me to enter, then you make me crawl” and in Taylor’s version “‘till you tore it all up.”

4) “Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well”

This line refers to the relationship history of the parties involved, which is just like verse 4 of “One.” (“Is it too late tonight to drag the past out into the light?”) The only difference is that in Taylor’s version, she doesn’t want to rehash the past, but U2’s is more ambiguous.


5) “And you call me up again just to break me like a promise”

This line has the identical sentiment of Verse 5 of “One.” The lover keeps coming back to rehash and hurt the protagonist again and again. (“Have you come here for forgiveness, have you come to raise the dead, have you come here to play Jesus to the lepers in your head?”)

6) “So casually cruel in the name of being honest”

This is like verse 1 and 3 of “One.” (“Will it make it easier now that you’ve got someone to blame?” And “You act like you’ve never had love and want me to do without.”) The protagonist’s ex self-righteously taunts him or her in both versions.

7) “I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well”

This is just like verse 6 of “One” (“You gave me nothing but it’s all I got.”) In both versions, the protagonist is left with nothing but painful memories that he or she cannot let go of, because that’s better than losing the memory of their lover.


To me these are essentially the same songs, except “One” is more uplifting and much better written. Like I said, it’s not plagiarism, but it’s the definition of derivative.

This analysis is inexplicable and perplexing. I almost feel sympathetic embarrassment for whoever wrote this. I can’t imagine how confusing life must be for such a person.
- not a swiftie

Can you specify what exactly is inexplicable and perplexing about this analysis? What you said is a generalization with no explanation. I feel more sorry for you than the thoughtful analysis you are dissing. At least she qualified her opinions with examples. What you said is just an open-ended unjustified insult. And it’s generic.

I feel sorry for you “life must be very confusing” for you, too.

Sounds pretty stupid when you hear your words regurgitated back at you, no?

Fine. Let’s do this.
“One” starts is Am and eventually revolves to CM.
“ All too well” starts and ends in CM
I’d consider them both Andante but I’m not looking up bpm. They are both 4/4
ATW - is 1564
One - is 1645 Am then 1641 CM once you resolve to the major key.
These are pretty typical pop progressions. You’ll find them everywhere.

They aren’t about similar subject matter. Like at all. I mean I guess they are about “love” but so are 98% of all pop music ever written. I haven’t listened to One in a while, but I believe it resolves to a major key musically as the lyircs resolve to some sort of resolution of making a painful relationship work.
ATW resolves with the accepted end of season, end of relationship. Starts as it ends musically. Of course that’s after major dynamic shift within the piece.
Ok. So I finally had to pull up lyrics. And honestly now I’m embarrassed for me, that I’m lying in bed doing a comp theory assignment for zero credit. But I’m in it now… so here goes.
While there is similar rhythmic prose happening between the pieces, the songs aren’t really structured the same.
“One” is verse chorus verse chorus
ATW is verse verse couplet chorus
“One” is vague and broad. Who is taking? Who are they taking to? Is it people in general? None of this is bad. It speaks to many. It’s relatable.
ATW- highly specific. The song progresses through seasons and the music whisks along with. You see the couple on a fall trip. You understand the closeness. The smell of her scarf. He’s wearing plaid and kept her scarf. Not many words written for how much information is imparted and the picture that is painted for you.
“ cause there we are again, in the middle of the night. We’re dancing around the kitchen in the refrigerator light”
Super specific super clear. You can see it.
The song continues to unspool and here is where I can see another similarity between One. Both songs feel carefully musically wound. Like a spool of wire. They pull evenly and perfectly. They both cleanly build upon themselves to full power ballads. There is real catharsis happening and they really make you feel it. Taylor is good, but Bono really nails this for me. 90’s teen me is super emo listening to this in high school. I’m right back there when I hear him wailing on the bridge.
But Taylor is known for writing a good bridge and she nails it in ATW. She’s hysterical in her relationship and musically she captures the heaving sobs of heartbreak. Again super specific.
I’m trying to remember the end of “One”. I believe it stays in CM… I don’t think it’s a fade out. I think they smash on tonic for the finish. Forgive me if I’m wrong.
ATW is repetitive fade out. She’s haunted by the death of the relationship. The picture might as well be a movie. You see the snow falling. Again crazy clear.
These songs have a few similarities.
Like they both are in the same key for a bit.
They are both similar tempi in 4/4…
They both are about “ love”…
They both build to an emotional and musical crescendo.

But these are some of the hallmarks of all songwriting. All music.
All Too Well is probably inspired by something. I highly doubt it’s One.

I was talking about the lyrics. Taylor didn’t write the music, she wrote the lyrics. The music was written by Liz Rose. Stick to the subject and why you said the PP’s interpretation of the lyrics playing off those in “One” was “inexplicable” and “perplexing.” No one is arguing that Liz Rose can write music, but great way to change the topic.

Honey, it’s a song. Not a poem. This is the topic. Basic song structure is about lyrics. You can’t ignore the form of a song.
1) Rose has a co writing credit on the final edit. I don’t know why you think TS only wrote the lyrics. That’s an absurd assumption.
2) “Perplexing” because that analysis is … just not an analysis. At all.
“TS wrote this lyric and Bono has a similar sentiment at the same point in his song?” Or worse in a completely different part of Bono’s song he talks about asking for too much , and TS also mentions asking for too much, just not in the same way, same place, similar lyric, rhythm or anything….
WHAT?!?!???
That’s not analysis. No observation of rhythm, rhyme, or song structure?
Of course that’s difficult, because these songs aren’t particularly similar other than tonally. And frankly writing in C major/A minor is hardly something to pin your argument to.
Although I find it remarkable that someone would immediately draw a comparison between the pieces when one starts in the minor key and the other does not.

And frankly the sentiment of “asked me to enter and then you make me crawl, and I can’t keep holding on”
Vs “ maybe this thing was a masterpiece till we tore it all up. Running scared, I was there I remember it.”
- these aren’t similar. Bono is talking his diminishment to keep this thing, and TS is talking about something that is no longer kept.
The sentiment is “asking for too much” in both songs? Ok…. That’s a pillar of writing unrequited love songs. Are the actual lyrics similar? Not even really.
So I say again perplexing.
If the person making this analysis really sees these things as similar, what else do they see patterns and links in?
I’m concerned for them.

Taylor didn’t write the music, Liz Rose did and anyone who can read between the lines appreciates that. That’s why Taylor’s music changes depending on whom she’s “collaborating” with. Her Liz Rose songs are completely different than her Jack Antonoff songs, not because she grew as a composer, but because she hired a new one to write the music. Taylor’s contribution to “All to Well” was the lyrics, the “poem” part, as you call it.

And it’s not very original. I had even heard the song before this thread because I find Taylor’s voice to be very irritating and raspy. I just don’t like the way it sounds, but PPs were going on and on about what an amazing lyricist she is. I asked for examples and someone provided “All Too Well” as one. I was going on lyrics alone, not on the overall song, because I had never heard it before. The lyrics, just the lyrics, are a poor imitation of those in “One.”

That’s the thing about Taylor, when you peel the layers, you see that underneath there isn’t very much going on. I’m not debating Liz Rose’s songwriting skills. I’m talking about Taylor’s alleged lyricist ones. They are completely lacking and very derivative.

So you’re just gonna make up facts and stick with it? Cool cool cool.
The song was written on the road by Swift.
Rose was brought in after the fact to help cobble it down to its original iteration and fine tune. Rose didn’t “compose the music”.
TS isn’t an amazing musician but she collaborates really well with others. That is a talent on its own.
But frankly her “eras” actually don’t sound all that different. She has a sound. It’s actually very “adult contemporary”. It surprises me that so many young people love it.
The lyrics of ATW have very little in common with One. There are words that all love songs utilize. You will be hard pressed to find POPULAR love songs that aren’t derivative.
But you don’t seem to understand that songs have structure, rhythm, melody, harmony…
ATW is more than the written words but even if it was and you looked at only text side by side with One, these pieces aren’t really similar. They aren’t even talking about the same thing.
Perplexing.

Taylor does have a sound, I won’t argue that, as did the NKOB and the Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears (who I’m much more a fan of than Taylor). It’s that generic teen pop sound. What distinguishes Taylor is her marketing. Her schtick from the start was that she wasn’t just another teen singer, she co-wrote the music, too. But it was always just the lyrics. She’s a brand, for her composers, too. I’m sure that for “All Too Well” there’s a huge fabricated back story and more marketing to sell a product, but the truth is that Liz Rose wrote the music for Taylor, just like all of her “collaborators” write the music. It’s the same as how ghostwriters write most of James Patterson’s stuff. Most books are ghostwritten these days. It’s a sad reflection of the entertainment industry. Artists cannot market themselves, they resort to putting someone else’s name on their product so they can earn a living. That’s life.

The lyrics, sure, those are all hers, but if you believe that Taylor has composed any of her own music, I have a bridge to sell you….Real musicians can write music without a constant string of “collaborators.” Do you think Prince needed other people to help him edit down a song? Nope. I applaud her and her team for the marketing. They’ve obviously done a fabulous job with that. The music, not so much. It’s still just the typical teen pop sound, even in her 30s.

Ok. You have cracked it. It’s all a marketing lie. Cool cool.
I mean they have recorded sound checks of her working the song on her tour, but ok. Sure. She only writes lyrics. 👍
One and ATW are the same song.
Sure.
Look I’m not really a fan, and I think she collaborates a ton, but diminishing what she does is sort of pathetic, don’t you think?
I mean if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.
Her music is fine, with a few real stand outs. The prolific nature is astounding.
This current tour is something else. She dreamed up and executed something that has impressed and amazed her peers. It’s dazzling ( I’m married to a scenic carpenter and he is floored by it)
But she captures something with her writing. When I hear it I’m surprised it hasn’t been written before. Like the song always existed and she just uncovered it. I get a similar feeling when I watch a good movie with mass appeal, or read a well reviewed best seller.
She’s interesting, because she’s so weirdly normal.

So, you think she does all of her set design and construction, too? “Cool cool cool.”

Sure, sure, sure, you’re totally not a fan, (or an employee), but somehow you and your scenic design husband paid to see her self-imagined and constructed set design. Why would you bother seeing it, if you weren’t fans at the very least?!?

I’m not a fan, and as a result, I have not seen her set; yet, common sense compels me to understand that she didn’t have anything to do with it beyond maybe making choices that were presented to her.

I planned my wedding and all. I picked a lot of stuff, that reflected my tastes, but I didn’t arrange the flowers or do the catering. Other people came up with ideas and I just picked the ones I liked better. Taylor doesn’t do all the things that are associated with her concerts, least of all set design.

According to you, Taylor is the girl next door, “interesting though weirdly normal,” who is also an ubermensch, not just singing on the sets, but designing and constructing them, too. How on earth does she find the time to open her red lipsticked mouth too wide, while hogging the camera, every time her boyfriend plays a football game, in between all those nights out with bff girl pals?

You know I’d believe it if you said she was an amazing performer, but you go too far in your assessment of her abilities. I think of people like Madonna and Lady Gaga, they put on excellent shows. But they’ve never claimed to do the set designs, or write the music, and they’re very strange and different, unlike the girl next door, Taylor, who does it all, but is somehow “just like you and me!”

You’re really laying it on too thick. And you can call it what you will, but Taylor’s “collaborators” are the people actually writing the music. I don’t care how many fake videos they make showing her process. Not only is she a mediocre singer, she’s a terrible see through actress, too. (I suppose all of her talents went to set design?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The two extremes are weird. She’s not the best lyricist, not compared to some of my faves like Joni Mitchell, Lucinda Williams, and Stevie Nicks. but she is very clever and writes easily understood yet pretty lyrics that conjure up specific feelings and imagery. Not everyone does that. Regina Spektor is incredible but sometimes you need an a clinical exegesis to understand what she’s talking about. It’s worthwhile to make beautiful and resonating art that isn’t challenging to consume.

It’s funny that Paul Simon was brought up because I was listening to Graceland the other day and thought this line reminded me of something Taylor Swift would write:

And I see losing love
Is like a window in your heart
Well, everybody sees you're blown apart
Everybody feels the wind blow

Dead simple, but beautiful, and the imagery is so evocative and relatable.

That verse came to me, too. Except, Taylor wouldn’t write that. She”d write something more like:

“You dropped my hand,
Like a shattered glass,
And now everyone knows how I feel inside,
Oh, oh, oh, I’m so exposed and broken,
I’m chilled to the core,
And the-eeey all know.”

I can’t understand how people don’t see the mediocrity of her lyrics. But then I suppose, I must be a gaslighting abuser to question her lyric writing abilities.

Hmm, I doubt you’ve listened to many Taylor Swift songs. She has plenty of purely metaphorical lines that aren’t at all what you describe.

I’ve literally looked at every single song PPs have said has great lines. And I strongly stand by my interpretation of her lyrics.

I keep asking posters to provide examples and all I get is crap like: ” darling, I’m a nightmare dressed up as a daydream.” Which I’ve already pointed out is cheesy play on “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

Where are these metaphorical lyrics? Please do share!

But please do share

Okay, here’s a few examples that comes to mind immediately

While you were out building other worlds, where was I?
Where's that man who'd throw blankets over my barbed wire?
I made you my temple, my mural, my sky
Now I'm begging for footnotes in the story of your life
Drawing hearts in the byline
Always taking up too much space or time

——

Spider-boy, king of thieves
Weave your little webs of opacity
My pennies made your crown
Trick me once, trick me twice
Don't you know that cash ain't the only price?
It's coming back around
And I keep my side of the street clean
You wouldn't know what I mean

—

It rains when you’re here and it rains when you’re gone

—

You call me up again just to break me like a promise, so casually cruel in the name of being honest

—

Long were the nights when my days once revolved around you
Counting my footsteps
Praying the floor won’t fall through, again

—

Fighting with a true love is boxing with no gloves, chemistry 'til it blows up, 'til there's no us

I don’t see what you see. To me all of those lyrics are derivative. I can immediately recall the other specific lyrics they remind me of. It’s not plagiarism per se, but they are reductive, nothing new or interesting to me, and I prefer the original much better. I would go line by line and describe what’s derivative about all of them, but the last time I did, I was accused of being a gaslighting abuser. But if you’re interested, I suggest you look into U2’s music. So many of Taylor’s lines are “inspired” directly by Bono.

I don't think anyone ever said--I certainly didn't--that Taylor Swift's lyrics are groundbreaking or unique? Just that they accomplish something (being easy to understand, sound pretty, and are evocative and relatable) as well as better than your made up "lyrics" that you ascribe to Taylor. I've heard like, three U2 songs in my life (not memorable, most just sounds like scatting to me) so I don't notice or care that she seems to be influenced by Bono.

I’m not huge U2 fan, either, but if you were familiar with their music, you would see that Taylor copies their lyrics. If you’d like to see an example of this go and check out “One.”

NP, and I am a huge U2 fan. Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor music, but can you point to the lyrics that are very similar? I am very familiar With the song one but I can’t think of what lyrics of Taylor you’re referring to that sound like that?

Maybe I’ve just not listened to enough of Taylor’s music, so not disagreeing with you just curious if you have time to refer me to the lyrics.

I’m not a huge connoisseur of Taylor’s music either. That’s why I asked people to give me examples of her good lyrics. This is from earlier in the thread, where I first noticed the similarities to U2.

From “All Too Well”

And maybe we got lost in translation
Maybe I asked for too much
But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up
Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well
And you call me up again just to break me like a promise
So casually cruel in the name of being honest
I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well

It’s not plagiarism, but it’s so similar and derivative to the lyrics of “One,” only much worse.

Are the similarities in the room with us right now?

Seriously, what?

I’m sure you’re going to be like “if you have to ask, you’ll never know….it’s called good taste, sweaty. You don’t know music like I do” LOL

I’ll describe the similarities, no problem. But don’t refute what I say by calling me a gaslighting abuser.

Here we go:

1) “And maybe we got lost in translation”

This line invokes the exact same message as the opening lines of “One,” a confusion as to where the relationship stands and how it got that way: “Is it getting better, or do you feel the same? Did I disappoint you, or leave a bad taste in your mouth?”

The two songs start at the same point, with the same inference.

2) “Maybe I asked for too much”

This is the exact first line of verse 6 in “One”: “Did I ask too much, more than a lot.”

3) “But maybe this thing was a masterpiece 'til you tore it all up”

This copies the sentiment of verse 7 of “One”: “Love is a temple, love’s a higher ground, you ask me to enter then you make me crawl.” The “masterpiece” in “All too Well” is the “temple” and the “higher ground” in “One,” representing the perfection of love. But then the protagonist’s lover took it away “you ask me to enter, then you make me crawl” and in Taylor’s version “‘till you tore it all up.”

4) “Running scared, I was there
I remember it all too well”

This line refers to the relationship history of the parties involved, which is just like verse 4 of “One.” (“Is it too late tonight to drag the past out into the light?”) The only difference is that in Taylor’s version, she doesn’t want to rehash the past, but U2’s is more ambiguous.


5) “And you call me up again just to break me like a promise”

This line has the identical sentiment of Verse 5 of “One.” The lover keeps coming back to rehash and hurt the protagonist again and again. (“Have you come here for forgiveness, have you come to raise the dead, have you come here to play Jesus to the lepers in your head?”)

6) “So casually cruel in the name of being honest”

This is like verse 1 and 3 of “One.” (“Will it make it easier now that you’ve got someone to blame?” And “You act like you’ve never had love and want me to do without.”) The protagonist’s ex self-righteously taunts him or her in both versions.

7) “I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying here
'Cause I remember it all, all, all too well”

This is just like verse 6 of “One” (“You gave me nothing but it’s all I got.”) In both versions, the protagonist is left with nothing but painful memories that he or she cannot let go of, because that’s better than losing the memory of their lover.


To me these are essentially the same songs, except “One” is more uplifting and much better written. Like I said, it’s not plagiarism, but it’s the definition of derivative.

This analysis is inexplicable and perplexing. I almost feel sympathetic embarrassment for whoever wrote this. I can’t imagine how confusing life must be for such a person.
- not a swiftie

Can you specify what exactly is inexplicable and perplexing about this analysis? What you said is a generalization with no explanation. I feel more sorry for you than the thoughtful analysis you are dissing. At least she qualified her opinions with examples. What you said is just an open-ended unjustified insult. And it’s generic.

I feel sorry for you “life must be very confusing” for you, too.

Sounds pretty stupid when you hear your words regurgitated back at you, no?

Fine. Let’s do this.
“One” starts is Am and eventually revolves to CM.
“ All too well” starts and ends in CM
I’d consider them both Andante but I’m not looking up bpm. They are both 4/4
ATW - is 1564
One - is 1645 Am then 1641 CM once you resolve to the major key.
These are pretty typical pop progressions. You’ll find them everywhere.

They aren’t about similar subject matter. Like at all. I mean I guess they are about “love” but so are 98% of all pop music ever written. I haven’t listened to One in a while, but I believe it resolves to a major key musically as the lyircs resolve to some sort of resolution of making a painful relationship work.
ATW resolves with the accepted end of season, end of relationship. Starts as it ends musically. Of course that’s after major dynamic shift within the piece.
Ok. So I finally had to pull up lyrics. And honestly now I’m embarrassed for me, that I’m lying in bed doing a comp theory assignment for zero credit. But I’m in it now… so here goes.
While there is similar rhythmic prose happening between the pieces, the songs aren’t really structured the same.
“One” is verse chorus verse chorus
ATW is verse verse couplet chorus
“One” is vague and broad. Who is taking? Who are they taking to? Is it people in general? None of this is bad. It speaks to many. It’s relatable.
ATW- highly specific. The song progresses through seasons and the music whisks along with. You see the couple on a fall trip. You understand the closeness. The smell of her scarf. He’s wearing plaid and kept her scarf. Not many words written for how much information is imparted and the picture that is painted for you.
“ cause there we are again, in the middle of the night. We’re dancing around the kitchen in the refrigerator light”
Super specific super clear. You can see it.
The song continues to unspool and here is where I can see another similarity between One. Both songs feel carefully musically wound. Like a spool of wire. They pull evenly and perfectly. They both cleanly build upon themselves to full power ballads. There is real catharsis happening and they really make you feel it. Taylor is good, but Bono really nails this for me. 90’s teen me is super emo listening to this in high school. I’m right back there when I hear him wailing on the bridge.
But Taylor is known for writing a good bridge and she nails it in ATW. She’s hysterical in her relationship and musically she captures the heaving sobs of heartbreak. Again super specific.
I’m trying to remember the end of “One”. I believe it stays in CM… I don’t think it’s a fade out. I think they smash on tonic for the finish. Forgive me if I’m wrong.
ATW is repetitive fade out. She’s haunted by the death of the relationship. The picture might as well be a movie. You see the snow falling. Again crazy clear.
These songs have a few similarities.
Like they both are in the same key for a bit.
They are both similar tempi in 4/4…
They both are about “ love”…
They both build to an emotional and musical crescendo.

But these are some of the hallmarks of all songwriting. All music.
All Too Well is probably inspired by something. I highly doubt it’s One.

I was talking about the lyrics. Taylor didn’t write the music, she wrote the lyrics. The music was written by Liz Rose. Stick to the subject and why you said the PP’s interpretation of the lyrics playing off those in “One” was “inexplicable” and “perplexing.” No one is arguing that Liz Rose can write music, but great way to change the topic.

Honey, it’s a song. Not a poem. This is the topic. Basic song structure is about lyrics. You can’t ignore the form of a song.
1) Rose has a co writing credit on the final edit. I don’t know why you think TS only wrote the lyrics. That’s an absurd assumption.
2) “Perplexing” because that analysis is … just not an analysis. At all.
“TS wrote this lyric and Bono has a similar sentiment at the same point in his song?” Or worse in a completely different part of Bono’s song he talks about asking for too much , and TS also mentions asking for too much, just not in the same way, same place, similar lyric, rhythm or anything….
WHAT?!?!???
That’s not analysis. No observation of rhythm, rhyme, or song structure?
Of course that’s difficult, because these songs aren’t particularly similar other than tonally. And frankly writing in C major/A minor is hardly something to pin your argument to.
Although I find it remarkable that someone would immediately draw a comparison between the pieces when one starts in the minor key and the other does not.

And frankly the sentiment of “asked me to enter and then you make me crawl, and I can’t keep holding on”
Vs “ maybe this thing was a masterpiece till we tore it all up. Running scared, I was there I remember it.”
- these aren’t similar. Bono is talking his diminishment to keep this thing, and TS is talking about something that is no longer kept.
The sentiment is “asking for too much” in both songs? Ok…. That’s a pillar of writing unrequited love songs. Are the actual lyrics similar? Not even really.
So I say again perplexing.
If the person making this analysis really sees these things as similar, what else do they see patterns and links in?
I’m concerned for them.

Taylor didn’t write the music, Liz Rose did and anyone who can read between the lines appreciates that. That’s why Taylor’s music changes depending on whom she’s “collaborating” with. Her Liz Rose songs are completely different than her Jack Antonoff songs, not because she grew as a composer, but because she hired a new one to write the music. Taylor’s contribution to “All to Well” was the lyrics, the “poem” part, as you call it.

And it’s not very original. I had even heard the song before this thread because I find Taylor’s voice to be very irritating and raspy. I just don’t like the way it sounds, but PPs were going on and on about what an amazing lyricist she is. I asked for examples and someone provided “All Too Well” as one. I was going on lyrics alone, not on the overall song, because I had never heard it before. The lyrics, just the lyrics, are a poor imitation of those in “One.”

That’s the thing about Taylor, when you peel the layers, you see that underneath there isn’t very much going on. I’m not debating Liz Rose’s songwriting skills. I’m talking about Taylor’s alleged lyricist ones. They are completely lacking and very derivative.

So you’re just gonna make up facts and stick with it? Cool cool cool.
The song was written on the road by Swift.
Rose was brought in after the fact to help cobble it down to its original iteration and fine tune. Rose didn’t “compose the music”.
TS isn’t an amazing musician but she collaborates really well with others. That is a talent on its own.
But frankly her “eras” actually don’t sound all that different. She has a sound. It’s actually very “adult contemporary”. It surprises me that so many young people love it.
The lyrics of ATW have very little in common with One. There are words that all love songs utilize. You will be hard pressed to find POPULAR love songs that aren’t derivative.
But you don’t seem to understand that songs have structure, rhythm, melody, harmony…
ATW is more than the written words but even if it was and you looked at only text side by side with One, these pieces aren’t really similar. They aren’t even talking about the same thing.
Perplexing.

Taylor does have a sound, I won’t argue that, as did the NKOB and the Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears (who I’m much more a fan of than Taylor). It’s that generic teen pop sound. What distinguishes Taylor is her marketing. Her schtick from the start was that she wasn’t just another teen singer, she co-wrote the music, too. But it was always just the lyrics. She’s a brand, for her composers, too. I’m sure that for “All Too Well” there’s a huge fabricated back story and more marketing to sell a product, but the truth is that Liz Rose wrote the music for Taylor, just like all of her “collaborators” write the music. It’s the same as how ghostwriters write most of James Patterson’s stuff. Most books are ghostwritten these days. It’s a sad reflection of the entertainment industry. Artists cannot market themselves, they resort to putting someone else’s name on their product so they can earn a living. That’s life.

The lyrics, sure, those are all hers, but if you believe that Taylor has composed any of her own music, I have a bridge to sell you….Real musicians can write music without a constant string of “collaborators.” Do you think Prince needed other people to help him edit down a song? Nope. I applaud her and her team for the marketing. They’ve obviously done a fabulous job with that. The music, not so much. It’s still just the typical teen pop sound, even in her 30s.

Ok. You have cracked it. It’s all a marketing lie. Cool cool.
I mean they have recorded sound checks of her working the song on her tour, but ok. Sure. She only writes lyrics. 👍
One and ATW are the same song.
Sure.
Look I’m not really a fan, and I think she collaborates a ton, but diminishing what she does is sort of pathetic, don’t you think?
I mean if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.
Her music is fine, with a few real stand outs. The prolific nature is astounding.
This current tour is something else. She dreamed up and executed something that has impressed and amazed her peers. It’s dazzling ( I’m married to a scenic carpenter and he is floored by it)
But she captures something with her writing. When I hear it I’m surprised it hasn’t been written before. Like the song always existed and she just uncovered it. I get a similar feeling when I watch a good movie with mass appeal, or read a well reviewed best seller.
She’s interesting, because she’s so weirdly normal.

So, you think she does all of her set design and construction, too? “Cool cool cool.”

Sure, sure, sure, you’re totally not a fan, (or an employee), but somehow you and your scenic design husband paid to see her self-imagined and constructed set design. Why would you bother seeing it, if you weren’t fans at the very least?!?

I’m not a fan, and as a result, I have not seen her set; yet, common sense compels me to understand that she didn’t have anything to do with it beyond maybe making choices that were presented to her.

I planned my wedding and all. I picked a lot of stuff, that reflected my tastes, but I didn’t arrange the flowers or do the catering. Other people came up with ideas and I just picked the ones I liked better. Taylor doesn’t do all the things that are associated with her concerts, least of all set design.

According to you, Taylor is the girl next door, “interesting though weirdly normal,” who is also an ubermensch, not just singing on the sets, but designing and constructing them, too. How on earth does she find the time to open her red lipsticked mouth too wide, while hogging the camera, every time her boyfriend plays a football game, in between all those nights out with bff girl pals?

You know I’d believe it if you said she was an amazing performer, but you go too far in your assessment of her abilities. I think of people like Madonna and Lady Gaga, they put on excellent shows. But they’ve never claimed to do the set designs, or write the music, and they’re very strange and different, unlike the girl next door, Taylor, who does it all, but is somehow “just like you and me!”

You’re really laying it on too thick. And you can call it what you will, but Taylor’s “collaborators” are the people actually writing the music. I don’t care how many fake videos they make showing her process. Not only is she a mediocre singer, she’s a terrible see through actress, too. (I suppose all of her talents went to set design?)

I work in the industry and understand very well how shows are designed and produced. But nice job setting up a straw man to easily knock down. You don’t have any other arguments, so I guess that is the best you’ll come up with. Figures.
Oooo you designed your wedding! How exciting and creative for you. That makes you such an expert to opine here. We are all so lucky to have your insight.
You aren’t worth the time.
You don’t believe she writes her music.
Fine.

[Anonymous]

Oh. We didn’t pay for the show.
We don’t pay for shows.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh. We didn’t pay for the show.
We don’t pay for shows.

DP but no one cares.

This thread is so far afield at this point.

I have zero interest in discussing the set design for Taylor's tour (which I'm sure, like any other arena show of that level will be flawless) or how some Swift song kinda sorta has a similar theme to a U2 song (she has obviously did not plagiarize it, lots of artists write songs about live).

The long and the short of it is that Taylor Swift is an okay songwriter and performer with a strong work ethic and terrific business chops. Why is this insulting? It's not, it's a compliment and it's accurate.

But I do think it's insulting to other more talented, creative, and innovative musical artists to act like she's a terrific lyricist or composer. She's okay. She gets help from skilled collaborators, especially on composing. She doesn't have an epic hit with widespread appeal like other pop stars or other singersongwriters, and that's her weak spot. Everyone has at least one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh. We didn’t pay for the show.
We don’t pay for shows.

Right, because you work for her or someone connected to her in the industry. (Hmmm, maybe on the set design your husband praised so much.) Oh, I believe you.

And no, it was not a straw man argument. I was responding to what you wrote. I wouldn’t have dreamed of suggesting anything about the sets, if you hadn’t brought up Taylor’s involvement in making them happen.

You obviously work for her. We get that.