Looks like a new Gaza war has started

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand at all what the anti-Israel posters want. One state? Two? Status quo except open borders with Israel? What?

One state with Jews gone, it sounds like?

Who has advocated for Jews to be “gone”? Please quote specific posts if you’re going to accuse posters of advocating for another Jewish genocide. That’s an incredibly inflammatory (and from what I can tell, false) accusation.

What I have advocated on this thread is for Israel to temper its war against Hamas in a way that it’s not indiscriminately killing, starving, and withholding lifesaving necessities from the two million civilians trapped in Gaza. They are not reasonable or acceptable collateral damage.

Ultimately I’m in favor of a two-state solution with reasonable governments in both Israel and Palestine, or (more unlikely given the historical context and animosity between the two groups) an integrated state in which all citizens are treated equally and have full rights.

How does an integrated state work? What happens if Palestinians get a majority in the Knesset and recognize a right to return including property rights for those disposed when they fled?

You mean…what if a democratically elected government passed laws to right historic wrongs? The U.S. has done it on a number of occasions without destroying our democracy. The Civil Rights Act, reparations for Japanese-Americans…I don’t think it’s a ridiculous idea for Israel, already a pluralistic democracy, to be…a pluralistic democracy.

And if the majority want a muslim theocracy? A Palestinian majority Knesset would not be like reparations to Japanese internees, it would be like congress voting to give native Americans back all of their land without compensation. All of those refugees in Jordan who still have house keys- do you think Palestinians would even think twice about kicking out the current occupants and giving their property back?

Palestinians, Lebanese, and Levantine Arabs traditionally aren’t theocratic like say Saudis or Yemenis because they’re multi faith people . They aren’t going to vote for a theocracy in Israel anymore than American Muslims in Dearborn would vote for sharia law because they don’t even have it in their own territory now. Palestinians know they have a large secular and large Christian population amongst them so why would they vote for theocracy in a freaking Israeli Congress?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those wanting a quick education in what happened in 1947-48, here is a longish article that blows away the myths of "but they were shooting at us!" or "but they were told to leave by their rulers!" (?) Looking at the preserved writings of the first Zionists, the article makes it clear that the "mandatory transfer" of Arabs was always the plan, because in the words of Israeli historian Benny Morris,

“A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them.”

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/11/14/benny-morriss-untenable-denial-of-the-ethnic-cleansing-of-palestine/

"Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it. Without uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here. . . .

There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don’t think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs. You have to dirty your hands. . . .

There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide—the annihilation of your people—I prefer ethnic cleansing. . . .

That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. . . .

I feel sympathy for the Palestinian people, which truly underwent a hard tragedy. I feel sympathy for the refugees themselves. But if the desire to establish a Jewish state here is legitimate, there was no other choice. . . .

But I do not identify with Ben-Gurion. I think he made a serious historical mistake in 1948. Even though he understood the demographic issue and the need to establish a Jewish state without a large Arab minority, he got cold feet during the war. In the end, he faltered. . . .

If he was already engaged in expulsion, maybe he should have done a complete job. . . .

If the end of the story turns out to be a gloomy one for the Jews, it will be because Ben-Gurion did not complete the transfer in 1948. Because he left a large and volatile demographic reserve in the West Bank and Gaza and within Israel itself. . . .

The non-completion of the transfer was a mistake."

Sounds like whatever was created was not feasible in the long run
Do you think the current status of constantly annexing land is a long term solution?

Do you really see the suffering of so many others now as a necessary sacrifice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From the Guardian. Israel/USA will sponsor an ethnic cleansing campaign in the Gaza Gheto.

Israel’s foreign minister, Eli Cohen, hinted that Israel may annex part of Gaza in a radio interview on Wednesday.

Cohen was reported by the Times of Israel as saying:

At the end of this war, not only will Hamas no longer be in Gaza, but the territory of Gaza will also decrease.

Biden has lost Michigan.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand at all what the anti-Israel posters want. One state? Two? Status quo except open borders with Israel? What?

Two states with autonomy and control over their own areas by the Palestinians. Control on air, water, sea, natural resources. No settlements. No open air prisons controlled by another government. That's the only way FORWARD.

I'm not anti-Israel but this is what I want too. It is the only forward. I think there are many Jewish, Israel-loving people out there who feel the same. We're not all right wingers

I'll caveat by saying that the only way to get there is if the Palestinians accept the existence of Israel. That has been a key barrier to reaching a peace deal.

You can just as easily flip it and say the only way to get there is if Israel accepts the existence of Palestine. That has been a key barrier to reaching a peace deal. Both statements are equally true. Even the most generous Israeli offer never granted Palestine real independence, and that's not even addressing the borders

1948?

Palestinians HAD a state and their leadership threw it away.

They’ve been doubling down (and losing) ever since.

One of the greatest mistakes in history.

1948 was a long time ago and the history is not as clear cut as you make it sound. Both side were in a state of war, not just the Palestinians

C’mon. I strongly favor a 2-state solution, but there’s no serious argument about why we don’t have two states.

Palestinian leadership has been a complete disaster, with horrific results for the Palestinian people.

75 years of suffering, all for nothing.

Speaking the truth about this is the only way forward.

Lol two state solution is gone. It’s a one state solution now. Let’s be completely honest here Israel government is a total and complete disaster. Look where they have left Israel. There is no guarantee Israel will survive this if hezbollah attacks a week or two in to the Gaza invasion. What does the clown show Israeli government do after letting battalion and company size units cross unopposed in to Israel? They start bombing refugees convoys and hospitals. Yes that hospital was a fuel air bomb and those do not leave craters.

If Israel survive this all the normalization of relationships with other countries in the region will be gone. The IDF is a shadow of what it was and Israeli intelligence is non existent. That is thanks to arrogance of Israel elected government. The pressure from the US, UN and the world to forcefully remove settlements will make the new Israeli government to collapse.

All of this because Israelis elected RWNJs. They plotted, bedded down with terrorists, increase settlements, pushed annexation of occupied territories, etc, etc to stop a two state solution. Start dealing in reality- there is no two state solution.

[Anonymous]

Jews and Arabs are very similar in that- left to their own- they squabble amongst each other first about politics and role of religion in it between seculars and ultra Orthodox . The leaders in the region on both ends joke and laugh about this themselves and they recognize that mutual hate is the only way that both sides don’t turn on each other within their own nations

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the Guardian. Israel/USA will sponsor an ethnic cleansing campaign in the Gaza Gheto.

Israel’s foreign minister, Eli Cohen, hinted that Israel may annex part of Gaza in a radio interview on Wednesday.

Cohen was reported by the Times of Israel as saying:

At the end of this war, not only will Hamas no longer be in Gaza, but the territory of Gaza will also decrease.

Biden has lost Michigan.

Yep he is done. He will be lucky to win New York. What a disaster for this country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who is for death by starvation of a million children?

Linda says: "Me!"

Release the hostages then.

Noticing how people here forget about those murdered and those hostages still held

I have been very vocal about Israel’s war crimes in Gaza on this thread, and I have not forgotten about the Israeli victims of Hamas’ terrorist attack or the hostages taken. I’m heartbroken over both the Israeli and Palestinian victims. I’m a woman and thinking about what the female hostages, in particular, have likely suffered is horrifying and I have the utmost empathy for them and their families. Unfortunately, I think it’s very likely that most are dead. And more killing isn’t going to bring them back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand at all what the anti-Israel posters want. One state? Two? Status quo except open borders with Israel? What?

One state with Jews gone, it sounds like?

Who has advocated for Jews to be “gone”? Please quote specific posts if you’re going to accuse posters of advocating for another Jewish genocide. That’s an incredibly inflammatory (and from what I can tell, false) accusation.

What I have advocated on this thread is for Israel to temper its war against Hamas in a way that it’s not indiscriminately killing, starving, and withholding lifesaving necessities from the two million civilians trapped in Gaza. They are not reasonable or acceptable collateral damage.

Ultimately I’m in favor of a two-state solution with reasonable governments in both Israel and Palestine, or (more unlikely given the historical context and animosity between the two groups) an integrated state in which all citizens are treated equally and have full rights.

How does an integrated state work? What happens if Palestinians get a majority in the Knesset and recognize a right to return including property rights for those disposed when they fled?

You mean…what if a democratically elected government passed laws to right historic wrongs? The U.S. has done it on a number of occasions without destroying our democracy. The Civil Rights Act, reparations for Japanese-Americans…I don’t think it’s a ridiculous idea for Israel, already a pluralistic democracy, to be…a pluralistic democracy.

And if the majority want a muslim theocracy? A Palestinian majority Knesset would not be like reparations to Japanese internees, it would be like congress voting to give native Americans back all of their land without compensation. All of those refugees in Jordan who still have house keys- do you think Palestinians would even think twice about kicking out the current occupants and giving their property back?

Palestinians, Lebanese, and Levantine Arabs traditionally aren’t theocratic like say Saudis or Yemenis because they’re multi faith people . They aren’t going to vote for a theocracy in Israel anymore than American Muslims in Dearborn would vote for sharia law because they don’t even have it in their own territory now. Palestinians know they have a large secular and large Christian population amongst them so why would they vote for theocracy in a freaking Israeli Congress?

Hamas won the last time they had popular elections. Fatah knows it would be even worse if they ever allowed another vote

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who is for death by starvation of a million children?

Linda says: "Me!"

Release the hostages then.

Noticing how people here forget about those murdered and those hostages still held

I have been very vocal about Israel’s war crimes in Gaza on this thread, and I have not forgotten about the Israeli victims of Hamas’ terrorist attack or the hostages taken. I’m heartbroken over both the Israeli and Palestinian victims. I’m a woman and thinking about what the female hostages, in particular, have likely suffered is horrifying and I have the utmost empathy for them and their families. Unfortunately, I think it’s very likely that most are dead. And more killing isn’t going to bring them back.

The suffering of so many is not necessary

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the Guardian. Israel/USA will sponsor an ethnic cleansing campaign in the Gaza Gheto.

Israel’s foreign minister, Eli Cohen, hinted that Israel may annex part of Gaza in a radio interview on Wednesday.

Cohen was reported by the Times of Israel as saying:

At the end of this war, not only will Hamas no longer be in Gaza, but the territory of Gaza will also decrease.

Biden has lost Michigan.

Yep he is done. He will be lucky to win New York. What a disaster for this country.

At this rate he is gonna lose Virginia as well, so many people here upset at his involvement in two wars and both are a S&$! show. Now, they are discussing $100 billion in aid to Ukraine and Israel, American taxpayers have become slaves to outside nations and our politicians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the Guardian. Israel/USA will sponsor an ethnic cleansing campaign in the Gaza Gheto.

Israel’s foreign minister, Eli Cohen, hinted that Israel may annex part of Gaza in a radio interview on Wednesday.

Cohen was reported by the Times of Israel as saying:

At the end of this war, not only will Hamas no longer be in Gaza, but the territory of Gaza will also decrease.

Biden has lost Michigan.

Yep he is done. He will be lucky to win New York. What a disaster for this country.

At this rate he is gonna lose Virginia as well, so many people here upset at his involvement in two wars and both are a S&$! show. Now, they are discussing $100 billion in aid to Ukraine and Israel, American taxpayers have become slaves to outside nations and our politicians.

The majority of Americans think we aren't doing enough to support Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand at all what the anti-Israel posters want. One state? Two? Status quo except open borders with Israel? What?

One state with Jews gone, it sounds like?

Who has advocated for Jews to be “gone”? Please quote specific posts if you’re going to accuse posters of advocating for another Jewish genocide. That’s an incredibly inflammatory (and from what I can tell, false) accusation.

What I have advocated on this thread is for Israel to temper its war against Hamas in a way that it’s not indiscriminately killing, starving, and withholding lifesaving necessities from the two million civilians trapped in Gaza. They are not reasonable or acceptable collateral damage.

Ultimately I’m in favor of a two-state solution with reasonable governments in both Israel and Palestine, or (more unlikely given the historical context and animosity between the two groups) an integrated state in which all citizens are treated equally and have full rights.

How does an integrated state work? What happens if Palestinians get a majority in the Knesset and recognize a right to return including property rights for those disposed when they fled?

You mean…what if a democratically elected government passed laws to right historic wrongs? The U.S. has done it on a number of occasions without destroying our democracy. The Civil Rights Act, reparations for Japanese-Americans…I don’t think it’s a ridiculous idea for Israel, already a pluralistic democracy, to be…a pluralistic democracy.

And if the majority want a muslim theocracy? A Palestinian majority Knesset would not be like reparations to Japanese internees, it would be like congress voting to give native Americans back all of their land without compensation. All of those refugees in Jordan who still have house keys- do you think Palestinians would even think twice about kicking out the current occupants and giving their property back?

Palestinians, Lebanese, and Levantine Arabs traditionally aren’t theocratic like say Saudis or Yemenis because they’re multi faith people . They aren’t going to vote for a theocracy in Israel anymore than American Muslims in Dearborn would vote for sharia law because they don’t even have it in their own territory now. Palestinians know they have a large secular and large Christian population amongst them so why would they vote for theocracy in a freaking Israeli Congress?

Hamas won the last time they had popular elections. Fatah knows it would be even worse if they ever allowed another vote

Hamas won due to 1. support by Israel and 2. the Palestinians were tired of the corruption of the communist PLO -who were telling them money isn’t important , it’s a capitalist structure while they were pocketing billions in Swiss accounts and Palestinian kids had nothing but stones to fight back Israeli aggression. Hamas was like a shiny new toy to them, much like Trump to Americans promising hatred and bringing “glory days” back.

In my estimation , Gazan youngsters could benefit from re-education in Israel. Some of those kids have probably never heard of the Holocaust or even know why Israelis are there in the first place. We know Hamas doesn’t allow that in their textbooks . Bombing them makes Hamas recruitment stronger

[Anonymous]

Pro-Palestinian protesters have now entered the Capitol!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Interesting:
Israel wants to depopulate Gaza, drive everyone out. If that is not true, then let them take refuge in one of Israel’s deserts



What is happening now in Gaza is an attempt to force civilian residents to take refuge and migrate to Egypt, which should not be accepted," Abdul Fattah al-Sisi said.

He warned that were this to happen, the Egyptian people could "go out and protest in their millions".

Cairo has already warned that if Palestinians left their land, it could "liquidate" Palestinian hopes of statehood.

But it would also be very dangerous for the Egyptian government if it was seen as complicit in any such deal – igniting public anger in the Arab world.

Any influx of people would also deepen Egypt’s current economic crisis and raise security fears in its restive Sinai region.

Sisi suggested that as Gaza is in effect under Israeli control, Palestinians could instead be moved to Israel’s Negev desert during its offensive against Hamas "till the militants are dealt with"

You seriously think Israel should open the Negev up to Gazans?!

Do you realize what would happen if they did that?

Tell me please
What will happen if they leave everyone to suffer and die where they are

I can’t believe I have to spell this out.

Hamas fighters will leave in the crowd and begin their attacks again, just like on October 7th.

So they will loose their human shields and you will be able to track down every single one

Yes because Hamas fighters walk around with a sign around their neck saying “Hamas.”

Al Qaeda doesn’t either but we didn’t ban Muslims after 9/11. At least let Gazan women and children into Israel. This is how you create less Hamas for the next generation by treating the youth who you claim are victims of Hamas as human beings . Not traumatizing them with 1,000 lb. bombs exploding their loved ones brains and guts out into a million pieces into hating Israel indefinitely.

What has creating a wall done for Israelis? Hamas was still able to breach.

Pulling up walls and killing is not the solution. Imagine if we as Americans did that to every American Muslim after 9/11.

Bombing their homes to smithereens because they share the same faith as radical killers.

We would be facing a 9/11 every year and be less safe if we did that.

But maybe we are just a more gracious
and kinder nation.

A gracious and kind nation in our war in Afghanistan?! Are you kidding me?!

You’re so ignorant.

You also act as though there are zero children who fight for Hamas. You also act as though Hamas fighters would magically find zero way to convince women to take on the fight in the Negev.

I specified American Muslims.

If Israel is afraid of 7 year old Palestinian children, then they shouldn’t even be in the region at all.

Children under 12 if they are given proper humanitarian assistance in Israel you will find those women and kids wouldn’t even want to go back to Gaza. They will love it in Israel. They will be surprised to find out there are many Arabic speakers there and Muslims within Israel. Within a few years, those kids would start speaking Hebrew.

Maybe I am naive but youth integration often works to resettle new people and cultures.

You think Israel will let Palestinians from Gaza into Israel for refuge? You seriously don't understand why this isn't possbile? You do know that there are many Arab nations in the region that could take their people in-- Egypt, Syria, Lebananon, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Algeria, Morocco... All those nations can take in their bretheren. You notice that none of them want to do that? A tiny Jewish country ain't taking in people who want to murder them. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to tell you.

I can see the headline now:

“Israel allows all Gazan women and children under 12 to enter Israel; bars those over 12 due to concerns they could be Hamas fighters”

“Israel breaks up families and sends them to refugee camps”

I’m sure that totally won’t cause a regional war.

Why would it cause a regional war? I thought you said none of the Arabs want the Gazans there.

They would be happier to see Israel so that instead of bombing hospitals all of which are funded by these same Arab countries and have doctors from those countries

*I thought you said none of the Arabs want the Gazans there in their own countries .

*They would be happier to see Israel implement this instead of bombing hospitals funded by these same Arab countries

You deeply, deeply misunderstand this region. Go read a book please.

I don’t misunderstand a thing. Unless you show and prove to Gazan kids that Israelis aren’t devils or monsters, a new generation of Hamas or worse will just continue to be determined to butcher the Jews. Integration of women and kids is the only feasible way Israel can tame the beast of Hamas, weaken their grip over Gazans, and curry favor with the rest of the Arab world which you may think is not needed but in a world where anti Semitism is growing in the right and left wing of America, it might be smart to try and at least befriend some of your neighbors.

As to why Arab nations can’t take them in, that defeats the purpose. Jewish people need to take those kids in and show that they are bigger and better than Hamas

and what gives you confidence that these kids won't grow up and be radicalized by jihad?

Surely these kids will grow up to love the country that killed their brothers/fathers/uncles/grand father and harbor no resentment at all.

Yep. These posters are so deeply stupid.

They criticize Israel’s current tactics and instead think ethnic cleansing of over half the Gazan population into Israel is the right move.

Because Israel’s current tactics of committing war crimes against Gazan civilians is the right move?

Stop deflecting from your stupidity. Own your hopeless naivety at least.

Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza against Gazan civilians under the legal definition of “war crimes”. I don’t consider this to be justifiable. If you support the military actions they’re taking, you are supporting war crimes. Stop deflecting from that.

No, honey. We’re talking about your ethnic cleansing plan. Which is a war crime.

Is America ethnic cleansing when it takes care of the migrants? Migration and refugee resettlement is not the same as ethnic cleansing.

That’s what Israel is doing by bombing the Gaza Strip

Say What? This is what you refer to as jumping the shark.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why Biden all of sudden trusts Bibi so much.

THIS