Gaza War, Part 2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Netanyahu said‘Don’t accuse us of war crimes, we are the most moral army in the world!!!

So what will his army do to the civilians who have not been able to get out?

Israelis are the biggest propagandists out there, I thought I had come across enough proof my 52 yrs but god they leave everyone in the dust. Others willing to engage in propaganda should take notes.

[Anonymous]

I think anyone demanding a ceasefire without simultaneously demanding the release of hostages is morally empty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.

A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.

They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.

Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.

Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]

Kahane was charged and convicted.

More about Goldstein and Kahane:

In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."

The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]

Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?

Apparently Abbas tried to criticize Hamas, but the PLO took the criticism down.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/president-abbas-says-hamas-actions-do-not-represent-palestinians-2023-10-15/

So I’m not aware of any West Bank leader that has repudiated Hamas.

Gaza is irrelevant because all the leaders there are Hamas.

So the answer is no. No Palestinian leader has repudiated the attacks of 10/7.

You are creating a false equivalency here trying to pretend Israelis and Palestinians exist in similar situations. If a moderate Israeli rails against Bibi and the response, they may get yelled at on line or shunned by their community. A moderate Palestinian could get killed for calling out Hamas. These people are in a state that should sadden you. They are under the control of a violent terror organization. The are essentially occupied by Israel. They are dirt poor and have no independent access to food, water and fuel. And now their children are getting killed by the hundreds. What power do these folk really have? What “Palestinian leader” exists that could possibly speak out?

There are Palestinian leaders in the West Bank and internationally that could speak out and don’t.

And how do you know they can speak out without putting their families in danger?

Look, I wholehearted condemn the Hamas attacks. I am happy to speak out against that. But there are innocents suffering and I also wholeheartedly condemn that. I absolutely do not believe in an eye for an eye.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:

I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.

They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.

I gifted the article for those without an Atlantic subscription:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/?gift=-JEepDEcAn1D86wtlbLwDMUUddpd2QV5A_mdxlSzdRk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Thank you!

I think the author makes specious arguments. I don’t think of Israel and Palestine through a prism of race - I don’t care about that. The author moves from that immediately into a sentence where he claims Israel’s critics argue that Israel “therefore” cannot be oppressed or victimized - as if that’s the argument used against Israel’s actions when it isn’t. Israel is in my view running an apartheid state as recognized by a sizable number of Israelis in the WB, and is a rightist-run hawkish state that has oppressed murdered and humiliated Palestinians for decades. None of that view is based on US-style identity politics.

The rhetoric of the past 3 weeks or so is 100% U.S. style identity politics--people not condemning Hamas have no other rhetorical tactic to use. They have to make themselves a victim.

Exactly. When you describe the world entirely in US-style colonizer/colonized identity binaries, you have no vocabulary left to explain the Hamas atrocities. Hence the silence or worse, minimization.

Although the author didn’t touch on it, I’ve also found the peculiar silence on the use of sexual violence as a war crime to be remarkable. The progressive left has wholeheartedly embraced misogyny as a political platform lately, and the excuses made are notable. We saw this here in DCUM in the victim-blaming of Shani Louk and the state of her underwear, as though that was a detail more important than the plain torture she obviously endured.

+1

These past three weeks have been very enlightening. The progressive left are ideological fanatics who have lost all sense of humanity. I too was struck by the utter lack of empathy for Israeli victims of sexual violence. It's as if you are not part of an accepted group, all violence is now permissible, including rape and torture against the "colonizers"and "oppressors," never mind that the were simply young people at a music festival. It's shocking, and I hope there's a strong pushback against the universities that have promulgated this specious morally-bankrupt ideological dogma for years now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:

I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.

They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.

I gifted the article for those without an Atlantic subscription:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/?gift=-JEepDEcAn1D86wtlbLwDMUUddpd2QV5A_mdxlSzdRk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Thank you!

I think the author makes specious arguments. I don’t think of Israel and Palestine through a prism of race - I don’t care about that. The author moves from that immediately into a sentence where he claims Israel’s critics argue that Israel “therefore” cannot be oppressed or victimized - as if that’s the argument used against Israel’s actions when it isn’t. Israel is in my view running an apartheid state as recognized by a sizable number of Israelis in the WB, and is a rightist-run hawkish state that has oppressed murdered and humiliated Palestinians for decades. None of that view is based on US-style identity politics.

The rhetoric of the past 3 weeks or so is 100% U.S. style identity politics--people not condemning Hamas have no other rhetorical tactic to use. They have to make themselves a victim.

Of course the same can be said about the ardent pro-Israelis with their reflexive claims of anti-Semitism, refusal to acknowledge any contribution or fault, and appeals to some sort of ancient historical claim. It's the exact same "we were oppressed in the past so we cannot oppress now" bull crap.

Nope, your whole argument fails because Israel is not at fault for being terrorized against. An no, terrorism is not equal to having your feelings hurt because of a nation that was formed closed to 80 years ago.

Thank you for providng such an on point example.

What has been happening in the West Bank is terrorism. The Israeli Government has terrorists in its Cabinet. There is more than enough fault to go around and yes it is all connected to each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.

A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.

They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.

Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.

Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]

Kahane was charged and convicted.

More about Goldstein and Kahane:

In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."

The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]

Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?

Apparently Abbas tried to criticize Hamas, but the PLO took the criticism down.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/president-abbas-says-hamas-actions-do-not-represent-palestinians-2023-10-15/

So I’m not aware of any West Bank leader that has repudiated Hamas.

Gaza is irrelevant because all the leaders there are Hamas.

So the answer is no. No Palestinian leader has repudiated the attacks of 10/7.

You are creating a false equivalency here trying to pretend Israelis and Palestinians exist in similar situations. If a moderate Israeli rails against Bibi and the response, they may get yelled at on line or shunned by their community. A moderate Palestinian could get killed for calling out Hamas. These people are in a state that should sadden you. They are under the control of a violent terror organization. The are essentially occupied by Israel. They are dirt poor and have no independent access to food, water and fuel. And now their children are getting killed by the hundreds. What power do these folk really have? What “Palestinian leader” exists that could possibly speak out?

There are Palestinian leaders in the West Bank and internationally that could speak out and don’t.

And how do you know they can speak out without putting their families in danger?

Look, I wholehearted condemn the Hamas attacks. I am happy to speak out against that. But there are innocents suffering and I also wholeheartedly condemn that. I absolutely do not believe in an eye for an eye.

I’m sorry, but you are straining credulity. You are asking me to believe that no Palestinian leader or public figure anywhere in the world can speak up and condemn any atrocities by Hamas. That’s plainly nonsense. Quite frankly if the Palestinians have no leaders anywhere in the entire world with any moral backbone, it’s not a great endorsement of that leadership.

Why can’t a single Palestinian leader literally anywhere in the world say “please return the little babies that were taken”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:

I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.

They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.

I gifted the article for those without an Atlantic subscription:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/?gift=-JEepDEcAn1D86wtlbLwDMUUddpd2QV5A_mdxlSzdRk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Thank you!

I think the author makes specious arguments. I don’t think of Israel and Palestine through a prism of race - I don’t care about that. The author moves from that immediately into a sentence where he claims Israel’s critics argue that Israel “therefore” cannot be oppressed or victimized - as if that’s the argument used against Israel’s actions when it isn’t. Israel is in my view running an apartheid state as recognized by a sizable number of Israelis in the WB, and is a rightist-run hawkish state that has oppressed murdered and humiliated Palestinians for decades. None of that view is based on US-style identity politics.

The rhetoric of the past 3 weeks or so is 100% U.S. style identity politics--people not condemning Hamas have no other rhetorical tactic to use. They have to make themselves a victim.

Exactly. When you describe the world entirely in US-style colonizer/colonized identity binaries, you have no vocabulary left to explain the Hamas atrocities. Hence the silence or worse, minimization.

Although the author didn’t touch on it, I’ve also found the peculiar silence on the use of sexual violence as a war crime to be remarkable. The progressive left has wholeheartedly embraced misogyny as a political platform lately, and the excuses made are notable. We saw this here in DCUM in the victim-blaming of Shani Louk and the state of her underwear, as though that was a detail more important than the plain torture she obviously endured.

+1

These past three weeks have been very enlightening. The progressive left are ideological fanatics who have lost all sense of humanity. I too was struck by the utter lack of empathy for Israeli victims of sexual violence. It's as if you are not part of an accepted group, all violence is now permissible, including rape and torture against the "colonizers"and "oppressors," never mind that the were simply young people at a music festival. It's shocking, and I hope there's a strong pushback against the universities that have promulgated this specious morally-bankrupt ideological dogma for years now.

It is shocking. Just as shocking as the supposedly enlightened pro-Israeli Americans trying to pretend that Israel is completely innocent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:

I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.

They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.

I gifted the article for those without an Atlantic subscription:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/?gift=-JEepDEcAn1D86wtlbLwDMUUddpd2QV5A_mdxlSzdRk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Thank you!

I think the author makes specious arguments. I don’t think of Israel and Palestine through a prism of race - I don’t care about that. The author moves from that immediately into a sentence where he claims Israel’s critics argue that Israel “therefore” cannot be oppressed or victimized - as if that’s the argument used against Israel’s actions when it isn’t. Israel is in my view running an apartheid state as recognized by a sizable number of Israelis in the WB, and is a rightist-run hawkish state that has oppressed murdered and humiliated Palestinians for decades. None of that view is based on US-style identity politics.

The rhetoric of the past 3 weeks or so is 100% U.S. style identity politics--people not condemning Hamas have no other rhetorical tactic to use. They have to make themselves a victim.

Of course the same can be said about the ardent pro-Israelis with their reflexive claims of anti-Semitism, refusal to acknowledge any contribution or fault, and appeals to some sort of ancient historical claim. It's the exact same "we were oppressed in the past so we cannot oppress now" bull crap.

Nope, your whole argument fails because Israel is not at fault for being terrorized against. An no, terrorism is not equal to having your feelings hurt because of a nation that was formed closed to 80 years ago.

Thank you for providng such an on point example.

What has been happening in the West Bank is terrorism. The Israeli Government has terrorists in its Cabinet. There is more than enough fault to go around and yes it is all connected to each other.

Then fight the war you started on 10/7 against your "terrorizers" and don't ask for a ceasefire.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I think anyone demanding a ceasefire without simultaneously demanding the release of hostages is morally empty.

The exchange in a ceasefire is that both sides stop firing. A hostage exchange is separate, though maybe subsequent to a ceasefire. Here is what the Israeli hostage families are demanding from Netanyahu:

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:

I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.

They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.

I gifted the article for those without an Atlantic subscription:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/?gift=-JEepDEcAn1D86wtlbLwDMUUddpd2QV5A_mdxlSzdRk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Thank you!

I think the author makes specious arguments. I don’t think of Israel and Palestine through a prism of race - I don’t care about that. The author moves from that immediately into a sentence where he claims Israel’s critics argue that Israel “therefore” cannot be oppressed or victimized - as if that’s the argument used against Israel’s actions when it isn’t. Israel is in my view running an apartheid state as recognized by a sizable number of Israelis in the WB, and is a rightist-run hawkish state that has oppressed murdered and humiliated Palestinians for decades. None of that view is based on US-style identity politics.

The rhetoric of the past 3 weeks or so is 100% U.S. style identity politics--people not condemning Hamas have no other rhetorical tactic to use. They have to make themselves a victim.

Of course the same can be said about the ardent pro-Israelis with their reflexive claims of anti-Semitism, refusal to acknowledge any contribution or fault, and appeals to some sort of ancient historical claim. It's the exact same "we were oppressed in the past so we cannot oppress now" bull crap.

Nope, your whole argument fails because Israel is not at fault for being terrorized against. An no, terrorism is not equal to having your feelings hurt because of a nation that was formed closed to 80 years ago.

Thank you for providng such an on point example.

What has been happening in the West Bank is terrorism. The Israeli Government has terrorists in its Cabinet. There is more than enough fault to go around and yes it is all connected to each other.

Then fight the war you started on 10/7 against your "terrorizers" and don't ask for a ceasefire.

First off F You. You specifically. You are a monster. I didn't do anything and I don't support crimes against humanity. Any crimes against humanity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:

I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.

They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.

I gifted the article for those without an Atlantic subscription:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/?gift=-JEepDEcAn1D86wtlbLwDMUUddpd2QV5A_mdxlSzdRk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Thank you!

I think the author makes specious arguments. I don’t think of Israel and Palestine through a prism of race - I don’t care about that. The author moves from that immediately into a sentence where he claims Israel’s critics argue that Israel “therefore” cannot be oppressed or victimized - as if that’s the argument used against Israel’s actions when it isn’t. Israel is in my view running an apartheid state as recognized by a sizable number of Israelis in the WB, and is a rightist-run hawkish state that has oppressed murdered and humiliated Palestinians for decades. None of that view is based on US-style identity politics.

The rhetoric of the past 3 weeks or so is 100% U.S. style identity politics--people not condemning Hamas have no other rhetorical tactic to use. They have to make themselves a victim.

Exactly. When you describe the world entirely in US-style colonizer/colonized identity binaries, you have no vocabulary left to explain the Hamas atrocities. Hence the silence or worse, minimization.

Although the author didn’t touch on it, I’ve also found the peculiar silence on the use of sexual violence as a war crime to be remarkable. The progressive left has wholeheartedly embraced misogyny as a political platform lately, and the excuses made are notable. We saw this here in DCUM in the victim-blaming of Shani Louk and the state of her underwear, as though that was a detail more important than the plain torture she obviously endured.

+1

These past three weeks have been very enlightening. The progressive left are ideological fanatics who have lost all sense of humanity. I too was struck by the utter lack of empathy for Israeli victims of sexual violence. It's as if you are not part of an accepted group, all violence is now permissible, including rape and torture against the "colonizers"and "oppressors," never mind that the were simply young people at a music festival. It's shocking, and I hope there's a strong pushback against the universities that have promulgated this specious morally-bankrupt ideological dogma for years now.

A bit of pushback, but not much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the Atlantic, a deeply thoughtful article about the profound failure of the settler-colonialist language of the left in this conflict.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

The whole article is incisive and well-written; here is one quote that stood out:

I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.

They are using the colonizer narrative to gain support of gullible people in the nebulous "POC" category, ironically many whose parents moved from their non western country to the country they are protesting in.

I gifted the article for those without an Atlantic subscription:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/?gift=-JEepDEcAn1D86wtlbLwDMUUddpd2QV5A_mdxlSzdRk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Thank you!

I think the author makes specious arguments. I don’t think of Israel and Palestine through a prism of race - I don’t care about that. The author moves from that immediately into a sentence where he claims Israel’s critics argue that Israel “therefore” cannot be oppressed or victimized - as if that’s the argument used against Israel’s actions when it isn’t. Israel is in my view running an apartheid state as recognized by a sizable number of Israelis in the WB, and is a rightist-run hawkish state that has oppressed murdered and humiliated Palestinians for decades. None of that view is based on US-style identity politics.

The rhetoric of the past 3 weeks or so is 100% U.S. style identity politics--people not condemning Hamas have no other rhetorical tactic to use. They have to make themselves a victim.

Of course the same can be said about the ardent pro-Israelis with their reflexive claims of anti-Semitism, refusal to acknowledge any contribution or fault, and appeals to some sort of ancient historical claim. It's the exact same "we were oppressed in the past so we cannot oppress now" bull crap.

Nope, your whole argument fails because Israel is not at fault for being terrorized against. An no, terrorism is not equal to having your feelings hurt because of a nation that was formed closed to 80 years ago.

Thank you for providng such an on point example.

What has been happening in the West Bank is terrorism. The Israeli Government has terrorists in its Cabinet. There is more than enough fault to go around and yes it is all connected to each other.

Then fight the war you started on 10/7 against your "terrorizers" and don't ask for a ceasefire.

First off F You. You specifically. You are a monster. I didn't do anything and I don't support crimes against humanity. Any crimes against humanity.

You are so mad and spouting explatives because I blew up your entire argument. Your post was rendered non sensible and you do not know how to react.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OMG I can't believe I'm saying this, but....go John Kirby?

TV Globo’s @RKrahenbuhl: “So, besides saying that he doesn't have confidence in these numbers, the President went further to say that innocents will die and that this is the price of the war. You also said that.”

Kirby: “I have indeed.”

Krähenbühl: “Don't you think this is insensitive? There’s being very harsh criticism in about it. For example, the Council of American-Islamic Relations said it was deeply disturbed and call on the President to apologize. Would the President apologize?”

Kirby: “No.”

Krähenbühl: “And does he regret saying something like that?”

Kirby: “What’s harsh — what’s harsh is the way Hamas is using people as human shields. What’s harsh is taking a couple of hundred hostages and leaving families and anxious, waiting and worrying to figure out where their loved ones are. What's harsh, is dropping in on a music festival and slaughtering a bunch of young people just trying to enjoy an afternoon. I could go on and on. That's what's harsh. That is what's harsh and being honest about the fact that there have been civilian casualties and that there likely will be more is being honest, because that's what war is. It's brutal. It's ugly. It's messy. I've said that before. President also said that yesterday. Doesn't mean we have to like it. And it doesn't mean that we're dismissing anyone of those casualties each and every one is a tragedy in its own right...It would be helpful if Hamas would let [Gazans] leave....We know that there are thousands waiting to leave Gaza writ large and Hamas is preventing them from doing it. That is what is harsh.”

Your mental space would become so much clearer once you assume that everything you hear at these briefings is 100% and 0% truth. That would literally answer all of your questions.

[Anonymous]

100% propaganda and 0% truth.

[Anonymous]

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To compound the problem, we don’t even have any known terrorist of Jewish faith, or any other faith in recent history- to my knowledge at least.

A few examples:
At the founding of Israel the Irgun, Haganah, the Stern gang. In another place, the IRA.

They don’t fit the definition of terrorist, however aggressive they might have been.

Um... Meir Kahane and Baruch Goldstein. Who just happen to be the personal heroes of the Israeli Minister of National Security, the guy in charge of the Israeli Police.

Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]

Kahane was charged and convicted.

More about Goldstein and Kahane:

In an address to the Knesset, Rabin, addressing not just Goldstein and his legacy but also other militant settlers, stated: You are not part of the community of Israel ... You are not part of the national democratic camp which we all belong to in this house, and many of the people despise you. You are not partners in the Zionist enterprise. You are a foreign implant. You are an errant weed. Sensible Judaism spits you out. You placed yourself outside the wall of Jewish law ... We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism."

The Israeli government condemned the massacre, and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Arab towns, and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles, though rejecting a PLO demand that settlers be disarmed and that an international force be created to protect Palestinians.[10] Goldstein was immediately "denounced with shocked horror even by the mainstream Orthodox",[28] and many in Israel classified Goldstein as insane.[29]

Has any Palestinian official senior leader spoken up publicly and said anything similar about Hamas and 10/7? I’m asking seriously: has any leader in the West Bank or Gaza repudiated the 10/7 massacre like above?

Apparently Abbas tried to criticize Hamas, but the PLO took the criticism down.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/president-abbas-says-hamas-actions-do-not-represent-palestinians-2023-10-15/

So I’m not aware of any West Bank leader that has repudiated Hamas.

Gaza is irrelevant because all the leaders there are Hamas.

So the answer is no. No Palestinian leader has repudiated the attacks of 10/7.

You are creating a false equivalency here trying to pretend Israelis and Palestinians exist in similar situations. If a moderate Israeli rails against Bibi and the response, they may get yelled at on line or shunned by their community. A moderate Palestinian could get killed for calling out Hamas. These people are in a state that should sadden you. They are under the control of a violent terror organization. The are essentially occupied by Israel. They are dirt poor and have no independent access to food, water and fuel. And now their children are getting killed by the hundreds. What power do these folk really have? What “Palestinian leader” exists that could possibly speak out?

There are Palestinian leaders in the West Bank and internationally that could speak out and don’t.

And how do you know they can speak out without putting their families in danger?

Look, I wholehearted condemn the Hamas attacks. I am happy to speak out against that. But there are innocents suffering and I also wholeheartedly condemn that. I absolutely do not believe in an eye for an eye.

Even if we believed in an eye for an eye, Israel has already killed more Palestinians by a factor of 5. Twice as many Palestinian CHILDREN have been killed than total people killed by Hamas.

We’ve passed an eye for an eye awhile ago.