What’s wrong with William & Mary?

[Anonymous]

Also ranked high in student satisfaction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

But that's not the point of this thread. The point is that students are less interested in attending W&M today. And key metrics are in decline, including applications, acceptance rate, rank, yield, etc. So the OP was wondering what was driving that. Several posters have weighed in that there is a problem with the culture and brand of the school. If "it's really old and really hard" is going to be the school's mantra, then it can expect the slide to continue.

In my opinion, they need to embrace the history and academic rigor, but then add to the experience with additional school spirit, community, and a sense of adventure. But those additional things are not apparent to most who visit and consider the school.

I think the trend is moving away from smaller schools. Small liberal arts schools seem to be less in fashion now than bigger schools, with sports, greek life, etc. Very few kids from our high school are looking at these small schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

But that's not the point of this thread. The point is that students are less interested in attending W&M today. And key metrics are in decline, including applications, acceptance rate, rank, yield, etc. So the OP was wondering what was driving that. Several posters have weighed in that there is a problem with the culture and brand of the school. If "it's really old and really hard" is going to be the school's mantra, then it can expect the slide to continue.

In my opinion, they need to embrace the history and academic rigor, but then add to the experience with additional school spirit, community, and a sense of adventure. But those additional things are not apparent to most who visit and consider the school.

I think the trend is moving away from smaller schools. Small liberal arts schools seem to be less in fashion now than bigger schools, with sports, greek life, etc. Very few kids from our high school are looking at these small schools.

That seems to be right. But William and Mary is not a slac. It’s a small public university (8,000 plus students, I think) with a law school. it’s really hard to compare it to any private school...Wake Forest without a med school is the best I can do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

But that's not the point of this thread. The point is that students are less interested in attending W&M today. And key metrics are in decline, including applications, acceptance rate, rank, yield, etc. So the OP was wondering what was driving that. Several posters have weighed in that there is a problem with the culture and brand of the school. If "it's really old and really hard" is going to be the school's mantra, then it can expect the slide to continue.

In my opinion, they need to embrace the history and academic rigor, but then add to the experience with additional school spirit, community, and a sense of adventure. But those additional things are not apparent to most who visit and consider the school.

I think the trend is moving away from smaller schools. Small liberal arts schools seem to be less in fashion now than bigger schools, with sports, greek life, etc. Very few kids from our high school are looking at these small schools.

The excellent slacs are getting more and more applicants every year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

But that's not the point of this thread. The point is that students are less interested in attending W&M today. And key metrics are in decline, including applications, acceptance rate, rank, yield, etc. So the OP was wondering what was driving that. Several posters have weighed in that there is a problem with the culture and brand of the school. If "it's really old and really hard" is going to be the school's mantra, then it can expect the slide to continue.

In my opinion, they need to embrace the history and academic rigor, but then add to the experience with additional school spirit, community, and a sense of adventure. But those additional things are not apparent to most who visit and consider the school.

What was apparent to me, on visiting for the first time in years, was a truly beautiful and safe seeming campus with lots of building projects going on. And yet ... the numbers are what they are and William and Mary now ranks below Florida. William and Mary’s complaining about a lack of money is as old as 1693. But they just have a limited pool of very rich donors who are probably exhausted after the billion dollar fundraising campaign. The key problem is, how does this school become popular in nova again? I don’t see an easy answer.

[Anonymous]

I should say that when I was there, the community was tight knit and supportive. If anything, it was a little cult like (but in a good way). And sports mattered a lot to my group of friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:None of the high achieving, well rounded kids at my DC's school are interested in William & Mary. It seems to attract a certain "type"--which tends to be an academic-only (fewer ECs, no sports) student who would be a fit at certain SLACs, but chooses W&M because of lower in-state tuition.

The high achieving, well rounded kids seem much more interested in UVA, with VT as a safety school. Then looking at privates like Georgetown, Duke, Emory, and Vandy.

If that’s true, then, yes, it’s a big problem for W&M. Too much, ‘we love being nerds’ babble. Turns off a lot of nova students. Back in my day, well rounded kids also had W&M on their list. The common denominator—except for Emory, whose presence on your list I don’t really understand—is higher profile, with better known sports teams (excluding Georgetown football).

When we visited W&M, the Assistant Dean who spoke to our group said W&M is too small a community to accept students who are academically successful with no apparent outside interests. She said the admissions committee is looking for successful students who have made contributions to their community at home. The kids who have been accepted from our school over the years are student council members, active (non-prize winning) Science Olympiad club members, musicians, theater participants, involved in sports (not at a recruitment level), yearbook, and probably lots more than that. My kid loved W&M immediately and was really excited to be accepted ED.

Same OOS ED kid is very excited about W&M

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

If you look at USNWR Ranking for best undergraduate teaching, W&M is #5. It is #13 in undergraduate research/creative projects (which is critical in many fields and graduate school). No other public universities are higher ranked in those two categories. If you add senior capstone, only 12 national universities are ranked in all 3, and only Princeton and Stanford have a lower average rank.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

If you look at USNWR Ranking for best undergraduate teaching, W&M is #5. It is #13 in undergraduate research/creative projects (which is critical in many fields and graduate school). No other public universities are higher ranked in those two categories. If you add senior capstone, only 12 national universities are ranked in all 3, and only Princeton and Stanford have a lower average rank.

Cool selective reasoning. Rank is good: count it! Rank is lousy: ignore it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:None of the high achieving, well rounded kids at my DC's school are interested in William & Mary. It seems to attract a certain "type"--which tends to be an academic-only (fewer ECs, no sports) student who would be a fit at certain SLACs, but chooses W&M because of lower in-state tuition.

The high achieving, well rounded kids seem much more interested in UVA, with VT as a safety school. Then looking at privates like Georgetown, Duke, Emory, and Vandy.

If that’s true, then, yes, it’s a big problem for W&M. Too much, ‘we love being nerds’ babble. Turns off a lot of nova students. Back in my day, well rounded kids also had W&M on their list. The common denominator—except for Emory, whose presence on your list I don’t really understand—is higher profile, with better known sports teams (excluding Georgetown football).

When we visited W&M, the Assistant Dean who spoke to our group said W&M is too small a community to accept students who are academically successful with no apparent outside interests. She said the admissions committee is looking for successful students who have made contributions to their community at home. The kids who have been accepted from our school over the years are student council members, active (non-prize winning) Science Olympiad club members, musicians, theater participants, involved in sports (not at a recruitment level), yearbook, and probably lots more than that. My kid loved W&M immediately and was really excited to be accepted ED.

ECs have always been a significant part of admissions there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

If you look at USNWR Ranking for best undergraduate teaching, W&M is #5. It is #13 in undergraduate research/creative projects (which is critical in many fields and graduate school). No other public universities are higher ranked in those two categories. If you add senior capstone, only 12 national universities are ranked in all 3, and only Princeton and Stanford have a lower average rank.

Cool selective reasoning. Rank is good: count it! Rank is lousy: ignore it!

No one here is ignoring the concerning overall ranking. Whether The College cares is unclear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

If you look at USNWR Ranking for best undergraduate teaching, W&M is #5. It is #13 in undergraduate research/creative projects (which is critical in many fields and graduate school). No other public universities are higher ranked in those two categories. If you add senior capstone, only 12 national universities are ranked in all 3, and only Princeton and Stanford have a lower average rank.

Cool selective reasoning. Rank is good: count it! Rank is lousy: ignore it!

I must have missed the rule that every possible ranking must be given every time. But nice sarcasm on your part. Should I assume your favorite university doesn't rank too high in those rankings?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

If you look at USNWR Ranking for best undergraduate teaching, W&M is #5. It is #13 in undergraduate research/creative projects (which is critical in many fields and graduate school). No other public universities are higher ranked in those two categories. If you add senior capstone, only 12 national universities are ranked in all 3, and only Princeton and Stanford have a lower average rank.

Cool selective reasoning. Rank is good: count it! Rank is lousy: ignore it!

Ooh. You got them there! Teaching quality and research opportunities are irrelevant!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

But that's not the point of this thread. The point is that students are less interested in attending W&M today. And key metrics are in decline, including applications, acceptance rate, rank, yield, etc. So the OP was wondering what was driving that. Several posters have weighed in that there is a problem with the culture and brand of the school. If "it's really old and really hard" is going to be the school's mantra, then it can expect the slide to continue.

In my opinion, they need to embrace the history and academic rigor, but then add to the experience with additional school spirit, community, and a sense of adventure. But those additional things are not apparent to most who visit and consider the school.

Yield goes down over time at almost all schools. Harvard, Stanford, and a few others remain constant, but others have declined as students started applying to more schools. UVA's yield has declined by about 14 points from 2004 to 2019. W&M's has gone down by about 11 points.

Applications at W&M have gone up in 12 of the past 14 years. You say "add to the experience with additional school spirit and community". Princeton Review has W&M at #6 for Happiest Students #12 for Best Quality of Life, and #6 Their Students Love These Colleges. The alumni giving rate at W&M is the highest of all national public universities according to USNWR.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole thread is just absurd. William and Mary provides the best undergraduate education in the liberal arts and sciences of any public institution in the country. It exists first and foremost for undergraduates and always has and always will. It's really old and really hard. If you don't want to work, if you want to party and follow big time college sports go elsewhere. Sadly, many young people today will do this and get a degree, but not an education.

It is in a class by itself.

But that's not the point of this thread. The point is that students are less interested in attending W&M today. And key metrics are in decline, including applications, acceptance rate, rank, yield, etc. So the OP was wondering what was driving that. Several posters have weighed in that there is a problem with the culture and brand of the school. If "it's really old and really hard" is going to be the school's mantra, then it can expect the slide to continue.

In my opinion, they need to embrace the history and academic rigor, but then add to the experience with additional school spirit, community, and a sense of adventure. But those additional things are not apparent to most who visit and consider the school.

Yield goes down over time at almost all schools. Harvard, Stanford, and a few others remain constant, but others have declined as students started applying to more schools. UVA's yield has declined by about 14 points from 2004 to 2019. W&M's has gone down by about 11 points.

Applications at W&M have gone up in 12 of the past 14 years. You say "add to the experience with additional school spirit and community". Princeton Review has W&M at #6 for Happiest Students #12 for Best Quality of Life, and #6 Their Students Love These Colleges. The alumni giving rate at W&M is the highest of all national public universities according to USNWR.

I just looked at SAT, ACT, and GPA scores on the SCHEV website. They have also gone up consistently over time at W&M.