Too much Christmas Education in my Public School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not obvious, but Christmas isn't the biggest Christian holiday of the year. That is Easter. Christmas is the biggest cultural holiday of the year, with traditions, gifts/commercialism, nostalgia, etc.

Very true.

But why does this matter for the present discussion? Rose Hashanah is the second biggest Jewish holiday of the year to Yom Kippur, but that wouldn't make pushing it in public school any more appropriate.

All of the stuff that OP refers to, the Christmas tree and Rudolph (not the Nativity but that is probably a separate cultural issue), coincide with the Christian holiday but aren't religious. They're cultural/secular.

I agree with you about Rudolph, but the Christmas tree is Christmas full-stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still OP... eAnd to the posters who were down on Chanukah, my goal here isn’t Jewish/Hindu/other religious based crafts (yes, Christmas is religious). I want mostly secular in public school (some christmas like caroling, a craft or two is fine). Just so everyone is included and there is not putting minorities against majorities, etc. just basically what’s suppose to happen with that separation of church and state.

That is not separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State means that the state does not support a specific Church (ie: fund it).

It's not just funding; remember that school-led prayer is not allowed either (although, providing teacher time and craft materials for making Christmas stuff is arguably funding it).

I already said that I'm with OP, even though we celebrate Christmas. There's plenty of Christmas everywhere; why does it have to be inundated at the schools also? I don't think it's purposeful; it's just people not even thinking about the fact there are families who don't celebrate it. But schools should be more thoughtful and inclusive, IMO. What possible harm does that do? Why would anyone argue against that?

School led prayer is along the same lines as funding a church. It is the government sanctioning and supporting a specific church. Classes teaching about different religions are offered in public schools. This is along the same lines as a party that has several different religion’s holidays that are celebrated. Those are not excluded from school, but it should not be just one holiday that is covered. The OP said she did not want a party that celebrated several different religion’s holdays because of separation of church and state. That was an incorrect interpretation of separation of church and state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not obvious, but Christmas isn't the biggest Christian holiday of the year. That is Easter. Christmas is the biggest cultural holiday of the year, with traditions, gifts/commercialism, nostalgia, etc.

Very true.

But why does this matter for the present discussion? Rose Hashanah is the second biggest Jewish holiday of the year to Yom Kippur, but that wouldn't make pushing it in public school any more appropriate.

All of the stuff that OP refers to, the Christmas tree and Rudolph (not the Nativity but that is probably a separate cultural issue), coincide with the Christian holiday but aren't religious. They're cultural/secular.

+1

How can you say a Christmas tree is secular? It is part of how people celebrate the Christmas holiday. And I would love to hear how the nativity scene is a "cultural issue," and therefore presumably not really religious.

You only view this through a cultural/secular lens because they are part of your traditions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still OP... eAnd to the posters who were down on Chanukah, my goal here isn’t Jewish/Hindu/other religious based crafts (yes, Christmas is religious). I want mostly secular in public school (some christmas like caroling, a craft or two is fine). Just so everyone is included and there is not putting minorities against majorities, etc. just basically what’s suppose to happen with that separation of church and state.

That is not separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State means that the state does not support a specific Church (ie: fund it).

It's not just funding; remember that school-led prayer is not allowed either (although, providing teacher time and craft materials for making Christmas stuff is arguably funding it).

I already said that I'm with OP, even though we celebrate Christmas. There's plenty of Christmas everywhere; why does it have to be inundated at the schools also? I don't think it's purposeful; it's just people not even thinking about the fact there are families who don't celebrate it. But schools should be more thoughtful and inclusive, IMO. What possible harm does that do? Why would anyone argue against that?

School led prayer is along the same lines as funding a church. It is the government sanctioning and supporting a specific church. Classes teaching about different religions are offered in public schools. This is along the same lines as a party that has several different religion’s holidays that are celebrated. Those are not excluded from school, but it should not be just one holiday that is covered. The OP said she did not want a party that celebrated several different religion’s holdays because of separation of church and state. That was an incorrect interpretation of separation of church and state.

Religious music is allowed to be sung and taught in a public school setting due to its educational and cultural value (per the Supreme Court)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not obvious, but Christmas isn't the biggest Christian holiday of the year. That is Easter. Christmas is the biggest cultural holiday of the year, with traditions, gifts/commercialism, nostalgia, etc.

Very true.

But why does this matter for the present discussion? Rose Hashanah is the second biggest Jewish holiday of the year to Yom Kippur, but that wouldn't make pushing it in public school any more appropriate.

All of the stuff that OP refers to, the Christmas tree and Rudolph (not the Nativity but that is probably a separate cultural issue), coincide with the Christian holiday but aren't religious. They're cultural/secular.

+1

In my jewish house, we do not put up a secular Christmas tree and Rudolph doesn’t show up either. We do decorate for Thanksgiving though because that is a secular holiday. As much as people want to say that that Christmas trees, Santa, Elf’s, are not part of Christmas, they are. The synagogue does not have a Christmas tree fundraiser, the church does. Santa does not bring Chanukah presents, he brings Christmas presents. The elf’s dont help out at Chanukah.

The symbols may not be specified in the New Testament but they are certainly associated with Christmas which is the holiday that Christians celebrate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not obvious, but Christmas isn't the biggest Christian holiday of the year. That is Easter. Christmas is the biggest cultural holiday of the year, with traditions, gifts/commercialism, nostalgia, etc.

Very true.

But why does this matter for the present discussion? Rose Hashanah is the second biggest Jewish holiday of the year to Yom Kippur, but that wouldn't make pushing it in public school any more appropriate.

All of the stuff that OP refers to, the Christmas tree and Rudolph (not the Nativity but that is probably a separate cultural issue), coincide with the Christian holiday but aren't religious. They're cultural/secular.

+1

How can you say a Christmas tree is secular? It is part of how people celebrate the Christmas holiday. And I would love to hear how the nativity scene is a "cultural issue," and therefore presumably not really religious.

You only view this through a cultural/secular lens because they are part of your traditions.

No one said a Nativity is the same as Rudolph.

What was said is that knowing what a Nativity scene means is basic cultural literacy. This is especially true in a society where the vast majority of major religious denominations are based in large part on the existence of this Nativity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still OP... eAnd to the posters who were down on Chanukah, my goal here isn’t Jewish/Hindu/other religious based crafts (yes, Christmas is religious). I want mostly secular in public school (some christmas like caroling, a craft or two is fine). Just so everyone is included and there is not putting minorities against majorities, etc. just basically what’s suppose to happen with that separation of church and state.

That is not separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State means that the state does not support a specific Church (ie: fund it).

Did you take Con Law from a cereal box? Not having religious education in school is absolutely a key element of separation of church and state. One can reasonably debate whether something is religious or not, but separation of church and state is not limited to providing direct government funds to a specific church.

You cannot study history, politics, current events or basic societal norms in a public school by erasing all information and knowledge of religion and religious traditions.

+1

Well, good thing LITERALLY NOBODY SUGGESTED THAT HERE. Phew.

[Anonymous]

My family celebrates secular Christmas. We're atheists.

Since you wouldn't be able to tell our Christmas tree apart from my Catholic neighbors' Christmas tree, I think it should be treated with some sensitivity. I also think we're in a time of transition. Fewer people are religious, Christmas is more and more a secular celebration, and in 100 years or so it may be pretty much entirely secular - but still shouldn't be treated as a "default" holiday because even in 100 years we will have lots of people who don't celebrate it. I have religious relatives who don't engage in any of the Santa or Christmas Tree stuff, because they see it as a dilution of the wonder of Christ's birth. They're more likely to have a birthday cake for Jesus than a tree decorated with ornaments.

Uh oh. Now we have to argue about whether birthday cakes are religious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still OP... eAnd to the posters who were down on Chanukah, my goal here isn’t Jewish/Hindu/other religious based crafts (yes, Christmas is religious). I want mostly secular in public school (some christmas like caroling, a craft or two is fine). Just so everyone is included and there is not putting minorities against majorities, etc. just basically what’s suppose to happen with that separation of church and state.

That is not separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State means that the state does not support a specific Church (ie: fund it).

Did you take Con Law from a cereal box? Not having religious education in school is absolutely a key element of separation of church and state. One can reasonably debate whether something is religious or not, but separation of church and state is not limited to providing direct government funds to a specific church.

You cannot study history, politics, current events or basic societal norms in a public school by erasing all information and knowledge of religion and religious traditions.

+1

Well, good thing LITERALLY NOBODY SUGGESTED THAT HERE. Phew.

Actually, yes. Several posters have said that separation of church and state means public schools cannot teach anything about religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not obvious, but Christmas isn't the biggest Christian holiday of the year. That is Easter. Christmas is the biggest cultural holiday of the year, with traditions, gifts/commercialism, nostalgia, etc.

Very true.

But why does this matter for the present discussion? Rose Hashanah is the second biggest Jewish holiday of the year to Yom Kippur, but that wouldn't make pushing it in public school any more appropriate.

All of the stuff that OP refers to, the Christmas tree and Rudolph (not the Nativity but that is probably a separate cultural issue), coincide with the Christian holiday but aren't religious. They're cultural/secular.

+1

How can you say a Christmas tree is secular? It is part of how people celebrate the Christmas holiday. And I would love to hear how the nativity scene is a "cultural issue," and therefore presumably not really religious.

You only view this through a cultural/secular lens because they are part of your traditions.

No one said a Nativity is the same as Rudolph.

What was said is that knowing what a Nativity scene means is basic cultural literacy. This is especially true in a society where the vast majority of major religious denominations are based in large part on the existence of this Nativity.

To me, a nativity scene is a major part of Christianity. I am not Christian. I would never attempt to explain a nativity scene. I don’t have the knowledge to explain it. I know what it is when I see it but not why it is important, what it represents, why it is recreated each year. That is something that parents and the church should be explaining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still OP... eAnd to the posters who were down on Chanukah, my goal here isn’t Jewish/Hindu/other religious based crafts (yes, Christmas is religious). I want mostly secular in public school (some christmas like caroling, a craft or two is fine). Just so everyone is included and there is not putting minorities against majorities, etc. just basically what’s suppose to happen with that separation of church and state.

That is not separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State means that the state does not support a specific Church (ie: fund it).

Did you take Con Law from a cereal box? Not having religious education in school is absolutely a key element of separation of church and state. One can reasonably debate whether something is religious or not, but separation of church and state is not limited to providing direct government funds to a specific church.

You cannot study history, politics, current events or basic societal norms in a public school by erasing all information and knowledge of religion and religious traditions.

+1

Well, good thing LITERALLY NOBODY SUGGESTED THAT HERE. Phew.

Actually, yes. Several posters have said that separation of church and state means public schools cannot teach anything about religion.

No they have not, but you seem to be arguing that there should be no limitations on how, when and how much religion should be discussed under the guise of cultural literacy, especially because you seem to believe cultural literacy requires a comparative religion class in early elementary school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

In my kids jewish day school, they acknowledge the federal holidays of Veterans Day, thanksgiving, MLK, Presidents’ Day and Memorial Day. They read stories, have speakers share stories, and do crafts related to the holiday. But yet...no Santa or Elf’s are ever brought home. Are you saying my kids school is ignoring a secular holiday?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.