Too much Christmas Education in my Public School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

In my kids jewish day school, they acknowledge the federal holidays of Veterans Day, thanksgiving, MLK, Presidents’ Day and Memorial Day. They read stories, have speakers share stories, and do crafts related to the holiday. But yet...no Santa or Elf’s are ever brought home. Are you saying my kids school is ignoring a secular holiday?

Apparently so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still OP... eAnd to the posters who were down on Chanukah, my goal here isn’t Jewish/Hindu/other religious based crafts (yes, Christmas is religious). I want mostly secular in public school (some christmas like caroling, a craft or two is fine). Just so everyone is included and there is not putting minorities against majorities, etc. just basically what’s suppose to happen with that separation of church and state.

That is not separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State means that the state does not support a specific Church (ie: fund it).

It's not just funding; remember that school-led prayer is not allowed either (although, providing teacher time and craft materials for making Christmas stuff is arguably funding it).

I already said that I'm with OP, even though we celebrate Christmas. There's plenty of Christmas everywhere; why does it have to be inundated at the schools also? I don't think it's purposeful; it's just people not even thinking about the fact there are families who don't celebrate it. But schools should be more thoughtful and inclusive, IMO. What possible harm does that do? Why would anyone argue against that?

School led prayer is along the same lines as funding a church. It is the government sanctioning and supporting a specific church. Classes teaching about different religions are offered in public schools. This is along the same lines as a party that has several different religion’s holidays that are celebrated. Those are not excluded from school, but it should not be just one holiday that is covered. The OP said she did not want a party that celebrated several different religion’s holdays because of separation of church and state. That was an incorrect interpretation of separation of church and state.

I think what OP meant is that she just thinks schools shouldn't get caught up in celebrating religious holidays (even if there's some parity between different religions). I don't think she meant the Constitution forbids it. Ultimately, given that Christmas is so dominant, usually the Hannukah craft is pretty outweighed by everything else, so I think that's what she's getting at.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.

But why is Santa and his elf’s making toys in the first place? Why are the toys/presents needed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

In my kids jewish day school, they acknowledge the federal holidays of Veterans Day, thanksgiving, MLK, Presidents’ Day and Memorial Day. They read stories, have speakers share stories, and do crafts related to the holiday. But yet...no Santa or Elf’s are ever brought home. Are you saying my kids school is ignoring a secular holiday?

DP. Yes. Just like kids in Catholic school are unlikely to celebrate secular Hanukkah. I have it on good authority from my culturally-but-not-religiously-Jewish friends that there is such a thing as secular Hanukkah.

I don't think the fact that there is secular Christmas is a reason to emphasize it in public school, however. Especially when there are minority cultures that are drowned out by the majority culture, and the tradition isn't one shared across all cultures. It sounds like OP's child's teacher needs someone to provide her with secular winter-themed crafts to do in the future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still OP... eAnd to the posters who were down on Chanukah, my goal here isn’t Jewish/Hindu/other religious based crafts (yes, Christmas is religious). I want mostly secular in public school (some christmas like caroling, a craft or two is fine). Just so everyone is included and there is not putting minorities against majorities, etc. just basically what’s suppose to happen with that separation of church and state.

That is not separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State means that the state does not support a specific Church (ie: fund it).

Did you take Con Law from a cereal box? Not having religious education in school is absolutely a key element of separation of church and state. One can reasonably debate whether something is religious or not, but separation of church and state is not limited to providing direct government funds to a specific church.

You cannot study history, politics, current events or basic societal norms in a public school by erasing all information and knowledge of religion and religious traditions.

+1

Well, good thing LITERALLY NOBODY SUGGESTED THAT HERE. Phew.

Actually, yes. Several posters have said that separation of church and state means public schools cannot teach anything about religion.

Please show me where they said that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.

But why is Santa and his elf’s making toys in the first place? Why are the toys/presents needed?

Because parents like to give gifts to kids. And people like to give gifts to each other.

Why are toys needed? Why not? Not because of Christianity, as you're implying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still OP... eAnd to the posters who were down on Chanukah, my goal here isn’t Jewish/Hindu/other religious based crafts (yes, Christmas is religious). I want mostly secular in public school (some christmas like caroling, a craft or two is fine). Just so everyone is included and there is not putting minorities against majorities, etc. just basically what’s suppose to happen with that separation of church and state.

That is not separation of Church and State. Separation of Church and State means that the state does not support a specific Church (ie: fund it).

Did you take Con Law from a cereal box? Not having religious education in school is absolutely a key element of separation of church and state. One can reasonably debate whether something is religious or not, but separation of church and state is not limited to providing direct government funds to a specific church.

You cannot study history, politics, current events or basic societal norms in a public school by erasing all information and knowledge of religion and religious traditions.

+1

Well, good thing LITERALLY NOBODY SUGGESTED THAT HERE. Phew.

Actually, yes. Several posters have said that separation of church and state means public schools cannot teach anything about religion.

You know, you can teach about the various religions without making reindeer crafts.

Studying religions <> celebrating their holidays

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.

But why is Santa and his elf’s making toys in the first place? Why are the toys/presents needed?

For Christmas. In case you're not aware, Santa isn't in the Christian Bible, nor are elves. And the tradition of the Christmas tree comes from pagan celebrations, and was brought indoors in a German tradition. Many people aren't even aware that Santa Claus is a corruption of St. Nicholas and do not venerate him as a Saint, but as a magical creature like a leprechaun. Just as people celebrate St. Patricks Day as a secular celebration, and not a religious veneration of another Saint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.

But why is Santa and his elf’s making toys in the first place? Why are the toys/presents needed?

Because parents like to give gifts to kids. And people like to give gifts to each other.

Why are toys needed? Why not? Not because of Christianity, as you're implying.

Agree. Parents like to give gifts to their children. On a kids bday, they receive gifts from mom and dad. So why is Santa needed at Christmas? Mom and dad can give their kids gifts during the winter without him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.

But why is Santa and his elf’s making toys in the first place? Why are the toys/presents needed?

Because parents like to give gifts to kids. And people like to give gifts to each other.

Why are toys needed? Why not? Not because of Christianity, as you're implying.

Your perspective is all wrong. Perhaps there are some people for whom Christmas is TRULY secular, and they also celebrate secular Hannukah and secular Eid and secular Diwali. But Christmas is ALSO a major CHRISTIAN holiday, for many people and in the religion. Hence, when a NON-CHRISTIAN child must celebrate Christmas in a public school, there's no way to say "Oh, that's just secular!" Because although Christmas to some is secular, it's undeniable religious at the same time. You can't just sever Christmas from all its historical religious roots. That's the whole point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

So you would be ok with celebrating Muslim holidays in a public school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.

But why is Santa and his elf’s making toys in the first place? Why are the toys/presents needed?

For Christmas. In case you're not aware, Santa isn't in the Christian Bible, nor are elves. And the tradition of the Christmas tree comes from pagan celebrations, and was brought indoors in a German tradition. Many people aren't even aware that Santa Claus is a corruption of St. Nicholas and do not venerate him as a Saint, but as a magical creature like a leprechaun. Just as people celebrate St. Patricks Day as a secular celebration, and not a religious veneration of another Saint.

Santa, elves, etc, are all undeniably associated with Christmas, which is a religious holiday (as well as being a secular holiday). There's no way to divorce them. You may personally practice secular Christmas, but the symbols are also religious, and you can't remove that linkage by fiat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.

But why is Santa and his elf’s making toys in the first place? Why are the toys/presents needed?

Because parents like to give gifts to kids. And people like to give gifts to each other.

Why are toys needed? Why not? Not because of Christianity, as you're implying.

Agree. Parents like to give gifts to their children. On a kids bday, they receive gifts from mom and dad. So why is Santa needed at Christmas? Mom and dad can give their kids gifts during the winter without him.

Right. Christmas doesn't mean anything at all ... so let's just not have it in public schools! Done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would also raise it with the teacher. This happened in my kid's DCPS school a couple years ago--it is a majority minority school where the vast majority of families are Christian. A non-Christian family raised concerns about some class activities around Easter. The teacher was a longtime, older teacher. In this case, things got elevated to the principal, but I would at least start with the teacher.

No wonder our kids and young adults can't get along with anyone who does not believe, act, look or vote exactly like them.

We have spent a generation now of our schools teaching that sharing anything and learning about traditions are bad because if we are not 100% the same, we should all get offended and hurt feelings.

+1

+1.
Christmas was made a federal holiday in 1870. We aren't religious at all but enjoy celebrating Christmas because celebrating about Santa, elves, gingerbread, etc. is secular. Why should schools ignore a federal holiday?

What does secular Santa and his secular elf’s do?

Santa and his elves make toys in Santa's workshop.

This really isn't complicated.

The Christian tradition of Christmas is related to the secular tradition of Christmas, but they are not the same thing. Those of us who celebrate secular Christmas don't think of Santa as a Saint or as representative of a Saint, we do have Santa and elves which many religious people who celebrate religious Christmas do not.

But why is Santa and his elf’s making toys in the first place? Why are the toys/presents needed?

Because parents like to give gifts to kids. And people like to give gifts to each other.

Why are toys needed? Why not? Not because of Christianity, as you're implying.

Your perspective is all wrong. Perhaps there are some people for whom Christmas is TRULY secular, and they also celebrate secular Hannukah and secular Eid and secular Diwali. But Christmas is ALSO a major CHRISTIAN holiday, for many people and in the religion. Hence, when a NON-CHRISTIAN child must celebrate Christmas in a public school, there's no way to say "Oh, that's just secular!" Because although Christmas to some is secular, it's undeniable religious at the same time. You can't just sever Christmas from all its historical religious roots. That's the whole point.

Mainline churches are dying. Christmas is a cultural holiday.

I go to a church service, have an Advent wreath. Those are a very small part of the Christmas season, which is a big cultural holiday. Some people celebrate both, some only one or the other.

[Anonymous]

You can learn about Christmas and maybe even celebrate a little at public school ONLY IF you are learning about and celebrating a variety of other religions/celebrations too.