PSA: Jews are a racial group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure what this point of view serves, except for Jewish people to be able to claim “racism” when faced with prejudice. But it’s both wrong and not necessary. You CAN be Jewish and any racial/ethnic group. You can also fully make it argument that it’s wrong to be prejudiced against someone on the basis of religion/culture. It’s not a contest.

You’re an idiot. It’s not an opinion or a contest; it’s a FACT.

Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity.

You can be ethnically, but not religiously, Jewish. Or you can be religiously but not ethnically Jewish. Or you can be both.

So Op, your entire argument is to childishly stomp your feet and repeatedly scream that your point of view is a FACT and call names. Fact is, those of us who are racially a minority do not have the privilege you have of converting to Christianity or what have to in order to avoid discrimination, as many Jews have (unfortunately had to) do in the past. We don’t have the freakin’ privilege of walking into work and deciding that we’re WASPs today or conveniently leaving our skin color and facial features off of job applications and mingling, to whatever extent it’s successful for those who can. It’s insulting, and like I said, unnecessary.

Good point, but I don't entirely agree. I can't change anything about anti-Semitism regardless of the fact that my DS can chose or not chose to identify as Jewish. No matter what I do, I still have to explain why Safta's relatives didn't make it out of Poland. Also, for Jewish people who ARE religious or culturally Jewish, it's not as simple as saying they can check their Jewish identity at the door. To Jews who identify strongly as Jews, that would be horrific. It's technically possible to "pass," but they would not want to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since race is a social construct, I hardly think “Jews are a race” to be without question and undebatable.
Your statement doesn’t even make sense. Are you saying that the ashkenazi and Sephardim are separate racial groups? You realize that there are Jews who fit into neither category?
Are Muslims a race? Hindus?

Just stop.

I don’t know about Muslims or Hindus, but yes — Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews (as well as some others) are considered racial groups. I had the Ashkenazi Jew genetic screening panel done when I was pregnant. My 23 and me results say “50% Ashkenazi Jewish.”

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

This is absolutely correct.
Both sets of my maternal great grandparents were Jewish. When they immigrated to the US, they became Christian. If I took a DNA test, it would find 50% ashkenazi Jewish ancestry even though my maternal family has never practiced Judaism. All of their children( my grand parents) and their siblings married other ethnic European Jews from the same country. All practised Christianity when they immigrated here, but are still 100% of ethnic Jewish ancestry including my mother and her cousins.

If you took a DNA test it PROBABLY would find that you have a set of genes that has some statistical commonality with that of the ashkenazi Jews the company happened to sample.

Private gene testing companies can find only such things - not where your ancestors came from or who they were. Much less can they determine what is or is not an ethnic group, a race, or anything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is nuts about this thread is OP’s childish arrogance posting declarative, reductive statements like “Jews are a race; it’s a fact.” When this has been debated endlessly by scholars, sociologists, rabbis, etc. Frankly, it’s not very Jewish of you to post something as fact and refuse to accept any counter arguments.

Bingo. I can't decide who OP is, but the posts seem more alt-right than Jewish ...

Sadly I fear no, she’s Jewish, just on the dim side. Not in line with the stereotypes, if you’ll pardon me for saying.

[Anonymous]

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/06/dna_testing_cannot_determine_ancestry_including_elizabeth_warren_s.html

This whole dna testing thing is taking people in a bad, reactionary, and unscientific direction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/06/dna_testing_cannot_determine_ancestry_including_elizabeth_warren_s.html

This whole dna testing thing is taking people in a bad, reactionary, and unscientific direction.

Studies have substantiated Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews as ethnic groups, long before consumer genetic testing was a thing.

But I do appreciate the PP who called me stupid; that was really fun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI to PP: not everyone considers Ashkenazi Jews white, but there’s really no agreed upon definition of “white,” so it’s really just an endless debate.

again, then what are Syrians and Persians?

If you look at the origins of Ashkenazi Jews they come from Europe. People from Europe are considered white. Doesn't matter that they have their own culture, religion or shared genetic marker. Their origins are European.

Well actually I am an ashkenazic Jew and I don't come from Europe, I come from New York City.

its true my ancestors came to the US from Europe. About 60% of THEIR ancestors came from the middle east - they brough with them in addition to their genes, their middle eastern language and alphabet, and even agricultural holidays that match the seasons of the eastern Med, not of Poland.

Well, then I guess that makes your race a New Yorker, then. I'm from CA, but my ancestors are from Asia. I guess by your logic racially that makes me a Californian.

Your ancestors are from Europe and/or the Middle East. So, what are Syrians? No one seems to answer this question. IMO, they are white, and so are you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Ok, then bring your case to those who have actually studied this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2016/06/dna_testing_cannot_determine_ancestry_including_elizabeth_warren_s.html

This whole dna testing thing is taking people in a bad, reactionary, and unscientific direction.

Studies have substantiated Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews as ethnic groups, long before consumer genetic testing was a thing.

But I do appreciate the PP who called me stupid; that was really fun.

Please cite these studies, and show me where they defined what an ethnic group is. Note, a genetic study showing particular frequencies of particular genes is not what I am looking for - rather it is a geneticist saying this constitutes "an ethnic group"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI to PP: not everyone considers Ashkenazi Jews white, but there’s really no agreed upon definition of “white,” so it’s really just an endless debate.

again, then what are Syrians and Persians?

If you look at the origins of Ashkenazi Jews they come from Europe. People from Europe are considered white. Doesn't matter that they have their own culture, religion or shared genetic marker. Their origins are European.

Well actually I am an ashkenazic Jew and I don't come from Europe, I come from New York City.

its true my ancestors came to the US from Europe. About 60% of THEIR ancestors came from the middle east - they brough with them in addition to their genes, their middle eastern language and alphabet, and even agricultural holidays that match the seasons of the eastern Med, not of Poland.

Well, then I guess that makes your race a New Yorker, then. I'm from CA, but my ancestors are from Asia. I guess by your logic racially that makes me a Californian.

Your ancestors are from Europe and/or the Middle East. So, what are Syrians? No one seems to answer this question. IMO, they are white, and so are you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

They are human beings, who have suffered terribly.

They are mostly muslims, but also many christians, and a few are secular.

They speak Arabic, except some speak Kurdish as a first language. Many speak French as a second language.

The whole problem here is "What are X" with the expectation that some "race" (classifications defined in the 19th century, largely based on power relations) is the answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Indeed. When you have a small group of people intermarrying, they will have a separate identifying marker from those around them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Ok, then bring your case to those who have actually studied this.

here ya go

https://www.zdnet.com/article/scientists-ethnicity-may-not-exist-genetically-speaking/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure what this point of view serves, except for Jewish people to be able to claim “racism” when faced with prejudice. But it’s both wrong and not necessary. You CAN be Jewish and any racial/ethnic group. You can also fully make it argument that it’s wrong to be prejudiced against someone on the basis of religion/culture. It’s not a contest.

You’re an idiot. It’s not an opinion or a contest; it’s a FACT.

Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity.

You can be ethnically, but not religiously, Jewish. Or you can be religiously but not ethnically Jewish. Or you can be both.

So Op, your entire argument is to childishly stomp your feet and repeatedly scream that your point of view is a FACT and call names. Fact is, those of us who are racially a minority do not have the privilege you have of converting to Christianity or what have to in order to avoid discrimination, as many Jews have (unfortunately had to) do in the past. We don’t have the freakin’ privilege of walking into work and deciding that we’re WASPs today or conveniently leaving our skin color and facial features off of job applications and mingling, to whatever extent it’s successful for those who can. It’s insulting, and like I said, unnecessary.

Good point, but I don't entirely agree. I can't change anything about anti-Semitism regardless of the fact that my DS can chose or not chose to identify as Jewish. No matter what I do, I still have to explain why Safta's relatives didn't make it out of Poland. Also, for Jewish people who ARE religious or culturally Jewish, it's not as simple as saying they can check their Jewish identity at the door. To Jews who identify strongly as Jews, that would be horrific. It's technically possible to "pass," but they would not want to.

We don't disagree. I am not saying at all that Jews want to pass as WASP or that every one of them can. We're discussing the distinctions between "racism" and "anti-semitism." One is not the other. There are overlaps and similarities, and my god, not a contest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI to PP: not everyone considers Ashkenazi Jews white, but there’s really no agreed upon definition of “white,” so it’s really just an endless debate.

again, then what are Syrians and Persians?

If you look at the origins of Ashkenazi Jews they come from Europe. People from Europe are considered white. Doesn't matter that they have their own culture, religion or shared genetic marker. Their origins are European.

Well actually I am an ashkenazic Jew and I don't come from Europe, I come from New York City.

its true my ancestors came to the US from Europe. About 60% of THEIR ancestors came from the middle east - they brough with them in addition to their genes, their middle eastern language and alphabet, and even agricultural holidays that match the seasons of the eastern Med, not of Poland.

Well, then I guess that makes your race a New Yorker, then. I'm from CA, but my ancestors are from Asia. I guess by your logic racially that makes me a Californian.

Your ancestors are from Europe and/or the Middle East. So, what are Syrians? No one seems to answer this question. IMO, they are white, and so are you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

They are human beings, who have suffered terribly.

They are mostly muslims, but also many christians, and a few are secular.

They speak Arabic, except some speak Kurdish as a first language. Many speak French as a second language.

The whole problem here is "What are X" with the expectation that some "race" (classifications defined in the 19th century, largely based on power relations) is the answer.

Can't answer the question, then. Since the US government still uses "race", they will have to define themselves one or the other, or the US government will do it for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is nuts about this thread is OP’s childish arrogance posting declarative, reductive statements like “Jews are a race; it’s a fact.” When this has been debated endlessly by scholars, sociologists, rabbis, etc. Frankly, it’s not very Jewish of you to post something as fact and refuse to accept any counter arguments.

Bingo. I can't decide who OP is, but the posts seem more alt-right than Jewish ...

Sadly I fear no, she’s Jewish, just on the dim side. Not in line with the stereotypes, if you’ll pardon me for saying.