PSA: Jews are a racial group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure what this point of view serves, except for Jewish people to be able to claim “racism” when faced with prejudice. But it’s both wrong and not necessary. You CAN be Jewish and any racial/ethnic group. You can also fully make it argument that it’s wrong to be prejudiced against someone on the basis of religion/culture. It’s not a contest.

You’re an idiot. It’s not an opinion or a contest; it’s a FACT.

Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity.

You can be ethnically, but not religiously, Jewish. Or you can be religiously but not ethnically Jewish. Or you can be both.

So Op, your entire argument is to childishly stomp your feet and repeatedly scream that your point of view is a FACT and call names. Fact is, those of us who are racially a minority do not have the privilege you have of converting to Christianity or what have to in order to avoid discrimination, as many Jews have (unfortunately had to) do in the past. We don’t have the freakin’ privilege of walking into work and deciding that we’re WASPs today or conveniently leaving our skin color and facial features off of job applications and mingling, to whatever extent it’s successful for those who can. It’s insulting, and like I said, unnecessary.

I never equated myself with African Americans or Hispanic or anyone else who can’t hide their identities.

But to say anti-semitism is a thing of the past is offensive and wrong. It’s not at the level of racism against black and brown people in this country, but it’s alive and well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are three different aspects of being Jewish. Culture, ethnicity and religion. They don’t necessarily overlap but they definitely exist. You can be a convert, identify as Jewish and be of totally different ancestry. Or you and your family can be Jewish for thousand years and you identify as atheist,

Agreed.. but "Jew" is not a race. Just as there are ethnic Germans, Poles and Dutch, there are ethnic Jews. But as a race, they are all considered white.

So Jews are not a racial group; ethnic, yes, but not racial.

Fine then ethnic. Is everyone happy now?

Well.. to be fair, the thread topic was wrong, so...

My race is Asian, but my ethnicity is Korean (but my nationality is 100% American ). If I were to start a topic with a headline that stated "Koreans are a racial group", I'm pretty sure I'd get flamed by Asians and Jews and others saying how stupid I was to say that Korean is a race.

There’s little consensus on how race and ethnicity differ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My grandparents were ALL Ashkenazi Jews.

Genetic studies have shown about 40% of the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews were gentiles from Sardinia, Corsica, Northern Italy, and Southern France.

Should I take pride in Sardinia? In the achievements of Genoa?

That is absurd.

First and foremost, take pride in your own achievements. Not borrowed glory.

But if you must take pride in a group, take pride in one whose values, traditions, you DO something to preserve and advance.

I am proud of the secular aspects of Jewish culture. Things my actual grandparents participated in, as they did not in the achievements of Northern Italy. In Jewish humor, in Yiddish poetry, in turn of the century Jewish political activism. In secular Zionist ideology. And yes, in the relgious civilization of the Jews - in Talmud and Midrash, in piyyutim, in the ornate structure of halacha, in the philosophy of Rambam and the visions of mystics and niggunim of the hasids.

But I do not take pride in my chromosomes. Which I did nothing to earn.

Literal much? Jeez.

OF COURSE I don’t take pride in my chromosomes. I take pride in what they represent, which is a connection to my ancestors, of whom I’m proud. Just like you.

Are you proud of your Sardinian and Ligurian ancestors? I am not proud of mine. I am proud of the ancestors whose lives I try to extend by living out their culture and their faith.

Umm, yes I am. I have Russian and Ukrainian ancestors and am absolutely proud of them.

I did not ask if you are proud of your ukrainian ancestors, who are not that far back and you or some relative you knew remembers. I am talking about the Sardinians, Ligurians, and other West Mediterranean gentiles who (IF you are of Ashkenazic Jewish ancestry) make up a large portion of your ancestry and your genetic inheritance. People whose culture you do not share, but who show up in your chromosomes.

How the hell do you know what culture I share?

Asshole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FYI to PP: not everyone considers Ashkenazi Jews white, but there’s really no agreed upon definition of “white,” so it’s really just an endless debate.

again, then what are Syrians and Persians?

If you look at the origins of Ashkenazi Jews they come from Europe. People from Europe are considered white. Doesn't matter that they have their own culture, religion or shared genetic marker. Their origins are European.

[Anonymous]

What is nuts about this thread is OP’s childish arrogance posting declarative, reductive statements like “Jews are a race; it’s a fact.” When this has been debated endlessly by scholars, sociologists, rabbis, etc. Frankly, it’s not very Jewish of you to post something as fact and refuse to accept any counter arguments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are three different aspects of being Jewish. Culture, ethnicity and religion. They don’t necessarily overlap but they definitely exist. You can be a convert, identify as Jewish and be of totally different ancestry. Or you and your family can be Jewish for thousand years and you identify as atheist,

Agreed.. but "Jew" is not a race. Just as there are ethnic Germans, Poles and Dutch, there are ethnic Jews. But as a race, they are all considered white.

So Jews are not a racial group; ethnic, yes, but not racial.

Fine then ethnic. Is everyone happy now?

Well.. to be fair, the thread topic was wrong, so...

My race is Asian, but my ethnicity is Korean (but my nationality is 100% American ). If I were to start a topic with a headline that stated "Koreans are a racial group", I'm pretty sure I'd get flamed by Asians and Jews and others saying how stupid I was to say that Korean is a race.

There’s little consensus on how race and ethnicity differ.

Well, not according to the US Census bureau. Of course they differ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure what this point of view serves, except for Jewish people to be able to claim “racism” when faced with prejudice. But it’s both wrong and not necessary. You CAN be Jewish and any racial/ethnic group. You can also fully make it argument that it’s wrong to be prejudiced against someone on the basis of religion/culture. It’s not a contest.

You’re an idiot. It’s not an opinion or a contest; it’s a FACT.

Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity.

You can be ethnically, but not religiously, Jewish. Or you can be religiously but not ethnically Jewish. Or you can be both.

So Op, your entire argument is to childishly stomp your feet and repeatedly scream that your point of view is a FACT and call names. Fact is, those of us who are racially a minority do not have the privilege you have of converting to Christianity or what have to in order to avoid discrimination, as many Jews have (unfortunately had to) do in the past. We don’t have the freakin’ privilege of walking into work and deciding that we’re WASPs today or conveniently leaving our skin color and facial features off of job applications and mingling, to whatever extent it’s successful for those who can. It’s insulting, and like I said, unnecessary.

I never equated myself with African Americans or Hispanic or anyone else who can’t hide their identities.

But to say anti-semitism is a thing of the past is offensive and wrong. It’s not at the level of racism against black and brown people in this country, but it’s alive and well.

Where did I say anti-semitism was a thing of the past? It’s alive and well but also distinct from racism, and when you go around calling people names when they point out the reasons for that distinction, you are out of line.

[Anonymous]

why the heck is this even in the "religion" forum if this is about race?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are three different aspects of being Jewish. Culture, ethnicity and religion. They don’t necessarily overlap but they definitely exist. You can be a convert, identify as Jewish and be of totally different ancestry. Or you and your family can be Jewish for thousand years and you identify as atheist,

Agreed.. but "Jew" is not a race. Just as there are ethnic Germans, Poles and Dutch, there are ethnic Jews. But as a race, they are all considered white.

So Jews are not a racial group; ethnic, yes, but not racial.

Fine then ethnic. Is everyone happy now?

Well.. to be fair, the thread topic was wrong, so...

My race is Asian, but my ethnicity is Korean (but my nationality is 100% American ). If I were to start a topic with a headline that stated "Koreans are a racial group", I'm pretty sure I'd get flamed by Asians and Jews and others saying how stupid I was to say that Korean is a race.

There’s little consensus on how race and ethnicity differ.

There’s little consensus on much of this area—which is again why OP is nuts to come on here declaring this as a “PSA”. And now, whoops- I didn’t mean “race” I meant “ethnic group”?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is nuts about this thread is OP’s childish arrogance posting declarative, reductive statements like “Jews are a race; it’s a fact.” When this has been debated endlessly by scholars, sociologists, rabbis, etc. Frankly, it’s not very Jewish of you to post something as fact and refuse to accept any counter arguments.

Bingo. I can't decide who OP is, but the posts seem more alt-right than Jewish ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are three different aspects of being Jewish. Culture, ethnicity and religion. They don’t necessarily overlap but they definitely exist. You can be a convert, identify as Jewish and be of totally different ancestry. Or you and your family can be Jewish for thousand years and you identify as atheist,

Agreed.. but "Jew" is not a race. Just as there are ethnic Germans, Poles and Dutch, there are ethnic Jews. But as a race, they are all considered white.

So Jews are not a racial group; ethnic, yes, but not racial.

Anthropologists consider "ethnic" as also a very problematic category. Take your example above. Dutch people had, historically, a language and culture that shaded gradually into that of northern Germany, which in turn shaded gradually into that of south Germany. "Dutch" culture is the product of the emergence of the Burgundian and later the Netherlands state from about 1450. Yet, of course, all those areas had individuals who arrived from elsewhere, and brought their genes and their cultures.

We should be very wary of using even "ethnic group" in a way that implies some kind of racial homogeneity, and forgets the roots of cultural divisions in the needs of states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My grandparents were ALL Ashkenazi Jews.

Genetic studies have shown about 40% of the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews were gentiles from Sardinia, Corsica, Northern Italy, and Southern France.

Should I take pride in Sardinia? In the achievements of Genoa?

That is absurd.

First and foremost, take pride in your own achievements. Not borrowed glory.

But if you must take pride in a group, take pride in one whose values, traditions, you DO something to preserve and advance.

I am proud of the secular aspects of Jewish culture. Things my actual grandparents participated in, as they did not in the achievements of Northern Italy. In Jewish humor, in Yiddish poetry, in turn of the century Jewish political activism. In secular Zionist ideology. And yes, in the relgious civilization of the Jews - in Talmud and Midrash, in piyyutim, in the ornate structure of halacha, in the philosophy of Rambam and the visions of mystics and niggunim of the hasids.

But I do not take pride in my chromosomes. Which I did nothing to earn.

Literal much? Jeez.

OF COURSE I don’t take pride in my chromosomes. I take pride in what they represent, which is a connection to my ancestors, of whom I’m proud. Just like you.

Are you proud of your Sardinian and Ligurian ancestors? I am not proud of mine. I am proud of the ancestors whose lives I try to extend by living out their culture and their faith.

Umm, yes I am. I have Russian and Ukrainian ancestors and am absolutely proud of them.

I did not ask if you are proud of your ukrainian ancestors, who are not that far back and you or some relative you knew remembers. I am talking about the Sardinians, Ligurians, and other West Mediterranean gentiles who (IF you are of Ashkenazic Jewish ancestry) make up a large portion of your ancestry and your genetic inheritance. People whose culture you do not share, but who show up in your chromosomes.

How the hell do you know what culture I share?

Asshole.

You DO share Sardinian culture? Interesting. You are unique among Ashkenazic Jews in that regard, I think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since race is a social construct, I hardly think “Jews are a race” to be without question and undebatable.
Your statement doesn’t even make sense. Are you saying that the ashkenazi and Sephardim are separate racial groups? You realize that there are Jews who fit into neither category?
Are Muslims a race? Hindus?

Just stop.

I don’t know about Muslims or Hindus, but yes — Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews (as well as some others) are considered racial groups. I had the Ashkenazi Jew genetic screening panel done when I was pregnant. My 23 and me results say “50% Ashkenazi Jewish.”

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

This is absolutely correct.
Both sets of my maternal great grandparents were Jewish. When they immigrated to the US, they became Christian. If I took a DNA test, it would find 50% ashkenazi Jewish ancestry even though my maternal family has never practiced Judaism. All of their children( my grand parents) and their siblings married other ethnic European Jews from the same country. All practised Christianity when they immigrated here, but are still 100% of ethnic Jewish ancestry including my mother and her cousins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI to PP: not everyone considers Ashkenazi Jews white, but there’s really no agreed upon definition of “white,” so it’s really just an endless debate.

again, then what are Syrians and Persians?

If you look at the origins of Ashkenazi Jews they come from Europe. People from Europe are considered white. Doesn't matter that they have their own culture, religion or shared genetic marker. Their origins are European.

Well actually I am an ashkenazic Jew and I don't come from Europe, I come from New York City.

its true my ancestors came to the US from Europe. About 60% of THEIR ancestors came from the middle east - they brough with them in addition to their genes, their middle eastern language and alphabet, and even agricultural holidays that match the seasons of the eastern Med, not of Poland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there are three different aspects of being Jewish. Culture, ethnicity and religion. They don’t necessarily overlap but they definitely exist. You can be a convert, identify as Jewish and be of totally different ancestry. Or you and your family can be Jewish for thousand years and you identify as atheist,

Agreed.. but "Jew" is not a race. Just as there are ethnic Germans, Poles and Dutch, there are ethnic Jews. But as a race, they are all considered white.

So Jews are not a racial group; ethnic, yes, but not racial.

Anthropologists consider "ethnic" as also a very problematic category. Take your example above. Dutch people had, historically, a language and culture that shaded gradually into that of northern Germany, which in turn shaded gradually into that of south Germany. "Dutch" culture is the product of the emergence of the Burgundian and later the Netherlands state from about 1450. Yet, of course, all those areas had individuals who arrived from elsewhere, and brought their genes and their cultures.

We should be very wary of using even "ethnic group" in a way that implies some kind of racial homogeneity, and forgets the roots of cultural divisions in the needs of states.

Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.