PSA: Jews are a racial group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure what this point of view serves, except for Jewish people to be able to claim “racism” when faced with prejudice. But it’s both wrong and not necessary. You CAN be Jewish and any racial/ethnic group. You can also fully make it argument that it’s wrong to be prejudiced against someone on the basis of religion/culture. It’s not a contest.

You’re an idiot. It’s not an opinion or a contest; it’s a FACT.

Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity.

You can be ethnically, but not religiously, Jewish. Or you can be religiously but not ethnically Jewish. Or you can be both.

You're only ethnically Jewish if you have some kind of personal connection to Judaism.

Yes, a genetic connection. Listen, you all can say this isn’t true, but it won’t change facts. The ethnic component of Judaism is why the Israeli Law of Return applies to anyone who can substantiate that at least a grandparent was Jewish. If you can do that, regardless of whether you are a practicing Jew, the Israeli government considers you Jewish and will grant you Israeli citizenship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

Your thinking is pretty muddled. The Israeli government doesn't require a genetic test or a family tree; just that a grandparent be Jewish (which is a proxy for the degree of personal connection to Judaism that the government has decided should confer citizenship.)

Curious to know 1) what is your agenda in this PSA? and 2) what is your definition of "ethnicity"?

My agenda is to correct a misconception.

There have been scientific studies proving Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct ethnic group: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835

Why are you so opposed to accepting this?

I just don't understand WHY you care, and what ethnicity means to you. Otherwise what's the point of your PSA?

I object to it because I think that Judaism primarily is a religion and culture to people. So if a person has no connection to the religion OR culture, I am not sure why you want to insist on calling them "ethnically Jewish."

Are you Jewish? If not you don’t know what Judaism is to us. So step aside and let us explain it to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

But you didn't answer my question. What "race" is a person from Syria or Jordan or Iran?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

But you didn't answer my question. What "race" is a person from Syria or Jordan or Iran?

I have no idea. I don’t claim to know about every ethnicity. I’m just talking about certain subsets of the Jewish population.

[Anonymous]

Although lumping Syrians in with Iranians is pretty funny, considering Iranians aren’t even Arabs. They’re very different from a demographic standpoint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure what this point of view serves, except for Jewish people to be able to claim “racism” when faced with prejudice. But it’s both wrong and not necessary. You CAN be Jewish and any racial/ethnic group. You can also fully make it argument that it’s wrong to be prejudiced against someone on the basis of religion/culture. It’s not a contest.

You’re an idiot. It’s not an opinion or a contest; it’s a FACT.

Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity.

You can be ethnically, but not religiously, Jewish. Or you can be religiously but not ethnically Jewish. Or you can be both.

You're only ethnically Jewish if you have some kind of personal connection to Judaism.

Yes, a genetic connection. Listen, you all can say this isn’t true, but it won’t change facts. The ethnic component of Judaism is why the Israeli Law of Return applies to anyone who can substantiate that at least a grandparent was Jewish. If you can do that, regardless of whether you are a practicing Jew, the Israeli government considers you Jewish and will grant you Israeli citizenship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

Your thinking is pretty muddled. The Israeli government doesn't require a genetic test or a family tree; just that a grandparent be Jewish (which is a proxy for the degree of personal connection to Judaism that the government has decided should confer citizenship.)

Curious to know 1) what is your agenda in this PSA? and 2) what is your definition of "ethnicity"?

My agenda is to correct a misconception.

There have been scientific studies proving Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct ethnic group: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835

Why are you so opposed to accepting this?

I just don't understand WHY you care, and what ethnicity means to you. Otherwise what's the point of your PSA?

I object to it because I think that Judaism primarily is a religion and culture to people. So if a person has no connection to the religion OR culture, I am not sure why you want to insist on calling them "ethnically Jewish."

Are you Jewish? If not you don’t know what Judaism is to us. So step aside and let us explain it to you.

I'm in an interfaith marriage with a secular Jew. I'm here to tell you that Judaism can absolutely be lost in the space of 2 generations. It's a culture and a religion. Not an ethnicity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure what this point of view serves, except for Jewish people to be able to claim “racism” when faced with prejudice. But it’s both wrong and not necessary. You CAN be Jewish and any racial/ethnic group. You can also fully make it argument that it’s wrong to be prejudiced against someone on the basis of religion/culture. It’s not a contest.

You’re an idiot. It’s not an opinion or a contest; it’s a FACT.

Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity.

You can be ethnically, but not religiously, Jewish. Or you can be religiously but not ethnically Jewish. Or you can be both.

You're only ethnically Jewish if you have some kind of personal connection to Judaism.

Yes, a genetic connection. Listen, you all can say this isn’t true, but it won’t change facts. The ethnic component of Judaism is why the Israeli Law of Return applies to anyone who can substantiate that at least a grandparent was Jewish. If you can do that, regardless of whether you are a practicing Jew, the Israeli government considers you Jewish and will grant you Israeli citizenship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

Your thinking is pretty muddled. The Israeli government doesn't require a genetic test or a family tree; just that a grandparent be Jewish (which is a proxy for the degree of personal connection to Judaism that the government has decided should confer citizenship.)

Curious to know 1) what is your agenda in this PSA? and 2) what is your definition of "ethnicity"?

My agenda is to correct a misconception.

There have been scientific studies proving Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct ethnic group: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835

Why are you so opposed to accepting this?

I just don't understand WHY you care, and what ethnicity means to you. Otherwise what's the point of your PSA?

I object to it because I think that Judaism primarily is a religion and culture to people. So if a person has no connection to the religion OR culture, I am not sure why you want to insist on calling them "ethnically Jewish."

Are you Jewish? If not you don’t know what Judaism is to us. So step aside and let us explain it to you.

I'm in an interfaith marriage with a secular Jew. I'm here to tell you that Judaism can absolutely be lost in the space of 2 generations. It's a culture and a religion. Not an ethnicity.

I’m here to tell you it’s an ethnicity, religion, and culture. If you have Ashkenazi, Sephardic, or several other subgroup genetic background, you are ethnically Jewish, regardless of whether you practice.

Why deny it?

[Anonymous]

Here’s a study showing the distinct genetic characteristics of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews:

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

But you didn't answer my question. What "race" is a person from Syria or Jordan or Iran?

I have no idea. I don’t claim to know about every ethnicity. I’m just talking about certain subsets of the Jewish population.

Given that Jews are from the same area as Syrians and Persians, and they are identified as "white", I'm going with Israelis are white, too.

Ashkenazi Jews are from Europe. They are white. Now, given that most of them probably married and produced offsprings within the same community, it's no wonder that they have the same genetic marker and can be considered a separate "ethnicity", much like Germans and Polish and Dutch are ethnically different. However, they, including Ashkenazi Jews, are all white because they all come from Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

What career field do you work in where you'd fear discrimination against you because you're Jewish? That's never even crossed my mind as a concern (I've worked in journalism on the East Coast for 20 years).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure what this point of view serves, except for Jewish people to be able to claim “racism” when faced with prejudice. But it’s both wrong and not necessary. You CAN be Jewish and any racial/ethnic group. You can also fully make it argument that it’s wrong to be prejudiced against someone on the basis of religion/culture. It’s not a contest.

The OP has some kind of stake in wanting Jews to be a race. S/he has posted elsewhere basically claiming that Jews should assimilate to the majority culture by giving up their religious rituals in favor of being like most Americans, and that somehow they stay Jewish after they do this. So, Jews can go to church because their neighbors do, but still be able to post on Internet sites about how Jews experience life in America, or feel about their religion.

I am descended from one of 3 Jewish brothers who immigrated to the US in the 1830s. My "branch" is the only one that is still Jewish. My distant cousins elsewhere in the country are all solidly protestant, and just consider their Jewish ancestors an interesting bit of family genealogy.

And maybe it's to claim victimhood, but more often, calling Jews a race has been used to deny them rights and citizenship. So I don't think it's actual Jews who promote this designation.

WTF? I’m Jewish and haven’t posted anything about how Jews should assimilate.

My point is to discuss something us Jews are PROUD OF. I am a proud Ashkenazi Jewish woman who takes pride in the ethnic component of my Jewish identity.

Just because that fact has been exploited by Nazis and others to strip us of rights and identify us for extermination does not change the fact that it is a celebrated part of our identity.

So stop spewing nonsense and making assumptions about what I’ve posted and believe.

Ok OP. If you had made this point in your post, it might have gone better. I'm still not entirely clear what your point is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure what this point of view serves, except for Jewish people to be able to claim “racism” when faced with prejudice. But it’s both wrong and not necessary. You CAN be Jewish and any racial/ethnic group. You can also fully make it argument that it’s wrong to be prejudiced against someone on the basis of religion/culture. It’s not a contest.

You’re an idiot. It’s not an opinion or a contest; it’s a FACT.

Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity.

You can be ethnically, but not religiously, Jewish. Or you can be religiously but not ethnically Jewish. Or you can be both.

You're only ethnically Jewish if you have some kind of personal connection to Judaism.

Yes, a genetic connection. Listen, you all can say this isn’t true, but it won’t change facts. The ethnic component of Judaism is why the Israeli Law of Return applies to anyone who can substantiate that at least a grandparent was Jewish. If you can do that, regardless of whether you are a practicing Jew, the Israeli government considers you Jewish and will grant you Israeli citizenship.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

Your thinking is pretty muddled. The Israeli government doesn't require a genetic test or a family tree; just that a grandparent be Jewish (which is a proxy for the degree of personal connection to Judaism that the government has decided should confer citizenship.)

Curious to know 1) what is your agenda in this PSA? and 2) what is your definition of "ethnicity"?

My agenda is to correct a misconception.

There have been scientific studies proving Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct ethnic group: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5835

Why are you so opposed to accepting this?

I just don't understand WHY you care, and what ethnicity means to you. Otherwise what's the point of your PSA?

I object to it because I think that Judaism primarily is a religion and culture to people. So if a person has no connection to the religion OR culture, I am not sure why you want to insist on calling them "ethnically Jewish."

Are you Jewish? If not you don’t know what Judaism is to us. So step aside and let us explain it to you.

I'm in an interfaith marriage with a secular Jew. I'm here to tell you that Judaism can absolutely be lost in the space of 2 generations. It's a culture and a religion. Not an ethnicity.

I’m here to tell you it’s an ethnicity, religion, and culture. If you have Ashkenazi, Sephardic, or several other subgroup genetic background, you are ethnically Jewish, regardless of whether you practice.

Why deny it?

I'm denying it because I think you're deceiving yourself if you think your CHILDREN are going to identify as Jewish if you don't actually inculcate a Jewish culture (beyond your mere genetics.) What you're saying is that you're ethnically ASHKENAZI. Unless you actually practice a religion or traditions, saying you're "ethnically XYZ" makes little sense.

I'm 12.5% Ashkenazi (one great grandparent.) Does that make me ethnically Jewish?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

What career field do you work in where you'd fear discrimination against you because you're Jewish? That's never even crossed my mind as a concern (I've worked in journalism on the East Coast for 20 years).

+1 I'm curious about this, too. In what industry and where are Jews being discriminated against in the work place? There are ahole bigots in every industry, and every part of this country. That doesn't mean that there is systemic bigotry in the industry or in the workplace. So, I'm curious... where is it that ^^PP works that (s)he fears discrimination as a Jew?

And I'm not white or Jewish, btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s a study showing the distinct genetic characteristics of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews:

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

I don't think that is the basis of any disagreement here. The disagreement is what having Ashkenazi genetics means. Again Irish Catholics share strong genetics. I don't practice Catholicism at all, and I'd be pretty het up if someone claimed I was ethnically Catholic due to my genes. So I think you mean something different here, and I'm not quite sure what.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a space for "Jew" when identifying race? I have never seen it on an employment app.

No. But applications don’t list every race or ethnicity, so that’s not a good metric.

Most of the apps don't go by ethnicity (that would indeed be too many), but they do list every race. Perhaps they don't list "jews" because the US government has deemed it not a race?

Is Middle Eastern a race? If you are from Syria, what "race" would you or the US government define you as?

Technically certain sunsets of the broader Jewish populations are ethnicities, not races.

Frankly, as an Ashkenazi Jew, I wouldn’t want to feel pressure to identify myself on an employment application because I’d fear discrimination.

What career field do you work in where you'd fear discrimination against you because you're Jewish? That's never even crossed my mind as a concern (I've worked in journalism on the East Coast for 20 years).

My child’s JCC and our shul have had swatiskas spray painted on them and have had bomb threats. While I haven’t experienced discrimination at work, anti-Semitism is alive and well, even in Montgomery County, where we live.

And PP: my point is to discuss a part of Jewish identity that many people seem to deny exists. It offends me when this happens and so I wanted to correct the record.

[Anonymous]

There are a lot of Muslims with roots in the MidEast and North Africa that have Sephardic and Ashkenazi DNA. Can they also claim to be Jewish? Not to get political (but it's slightly inevitable)... do they have a right to return? What percentage of DNA 'counts' for Muslims who have 'Jewish' DNA?