PSA: Jews are a racial group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Indeed. When you have a small group of people intermarrying, they will have a separate identifying marker from those around them.

Except they do not. There is no "jewish" genetic marker. Their are some genes and groups of genes that are much more common among Jews - but none that all Jews (of completely Jewish recent ancestry) share. Not the Cohen Modal Haplotype, or any other.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301023/

It becomes overwhelmingly clear that although Jews maintained detectable vertical genetic continuity along generations of socio-religious-cultural relationship, also intensive horizontal genetic relations were maintained both between Jewish communities and with the gentile surrounding. Thus, in spite of considerable consanguinity, there is no Jewish genotype to identify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Ok, then bring your case to those who have actually studied this.

here ya go

https://www.zdnet.com/article/scientists-ethnicity-may-not-exist-genetically-speaking/

DP... I didn't read the entire study, but this caught my attention: they studied Central Asia: the Turkic and Indo-Iranian groups.

That area straddles two continents, and with the migration pattern of both Europeans and Asians, it would be harder to find a distinct marker that identifies them as white or asian. They are going to be a mish/mash of both, and thus have more differences with both groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since race is a social construct, I hardly think “Jews are a race” to be without question and undebatable.
Your statement doesn’t even make sense. Are you saying that the ashkenazi and Sephardim are separate racial groups? You realize that there are Jews who fit into neither category?
Are Muslims a race? Hindus?

Just stop.

I don’t know about Muslims or Hindus, but yes — Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews (as well as some others) are considered racial groups. I had the Ashkenazi Jew genetic screening panel done when I was pregnant. My 23 and me results say “50% Ashkenazi Jewish.”

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

I would think you have to be over 50% to be considered of the Jewish race? If you think this way where do you draw the line on who is a Jewish enough vs just mixed blood? We have gone down this path before and it never works out well.

Just because this fact was used by anti-Semites to justify horrific acts doesn’t mean it’s wrong to acknowledge the genetic component of Judaism.

There’s no consensus on a percentage, but I think any genetic background consistent with Ashenazi, Sephardic or other Jewish ethnic groups is enough to say you’re ethnically Jewish.

If I’m comfortable with this, as a Jew, why aren’t you?

What if there is a large % of Palestinian mixed in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Indeed. When you have a small group of people intermarrying, they will have a separate identifying marker from those around them.

Except they do not. There is no "jewish" genetic marker. Their are some genes and groups of genes that are much more common among Jews - but none that all Jews (of completely Jewish recent ancestry) share. Not the Cohen Modal Haplotype, or any other.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301023/

It becomes overwhelmingly clear that although Jews maintained detectable vertical genetic continuity along generations of socio-religious-cultural relationship, also intensive horizontal genetic relations were maintained both between Jewish communities and with the gentile surrounding. Thus, in spite of considerable consanguinity, there is no Jewish genotype to identify.

This particular thread is about Ashkenazi Jews, not the overall Jewish group. In that regard, they do have a specific genetic marker, like the diseases that are prevalent in their group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI to PP: not everyone considers Ashkenazi Jews white, but there’s really no agreed upon definition of “white,” so it’s really just an endless debate.

again, then what are Syrians and Persians?

If you look at the origins of Ashkenazi Jews they come from Europe. People from Europe are considered white. Doesn't matter that they have their own culture, religion or shared genetic marker. Their origins are European.

Well actually I am an ashkenazic Jew and I don't come from Europe, I come from New York City.

its true my ancestors came to the US from Europe. About 60% of THEIR ancestors came from the middle east - they brough with them in addition to their genes, their middle eastern language and alphabet, and even agricultural holidays that match the seasons of the eastern Med, not of Poland.

Well, then I guess that makes your race a New Yorker, then. I'm from CA, but my ancestors are from Asia. I guess by your logic racially that makes me a Californian.

Your ancestors are from Europe and/or the Middle East. So, what are Syrians? No one seems to answer this question. IMO, they are white, and so are you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

They are human beings, who have suffered terribly.

They are mostly muslims, but also many christians, and a few are secular.

They speak Arabic, except some speak Kurdish as a first language. Many speak French as a second language.

The whole problem here is "What are X" with the expectation that some "race" (classifications defined in the 19th century, largely based on power relations) is the answer.

Can't answer the question, then. Since the US government still uses "race", they will have to define themselves one or the other, or the US government will do it for them.

The US govt does so for the purpose of determining social facts (income, poverty, etc) among actual, socially defined groups in the US (Which is why "black" is based on US cultural definitions of black, not on proportion of african ancestry.

These do not necessarily match well with immigrants who never had the historical experiences of the US. That is a problem for the census bureau, and users of its data. Whatever answer they come up with, should not make us thing that there is any "essential truth" in it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since race is a social construct, I hardly think “Jews are a race” to be without question and undebatable.
Your statement doesn’t even make sense. Are you saying that the ashkenazi and Sephardim are separate racial groups? You realize that there are Jews who fit into neither category?
Are Muslims a race? Hindus?

Just stop.

I don’t know about Muslims or Hindus, but yes — Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews (as well as some others) are considered racial groups. I had the Ashkenazi Jew genetic screening panel done when I was pregnant. My 23 and me results say “50% Ashkenazi Jewish.”

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

This is absolutely correct.
Both sets of my maternal great grandparents were Jewish. When they immigrated to the US, they became Christian. If I took a DNA test, it would find 50% ashkenazi Jewish ancestry even though my maternal family has never practiced Judaism. All of their children( my grand parents) and their siblings married other ethnic European Jews from the same country. All practised Christianity when they immigrated here, but are still 100% of ethnic Jewish ancestry including my mother and her cousins.

If you took a DNA test it PROBABLY would find that you have a set of genes that has some statistical commonality with that of the ashkenazi Jews the company happened to sample.

Private gene testing companies can find only such things - not where your ancestors came from or who they were. Much less can they determine what is or is not an ethnic group, a race, or anything else.

I already know what country they came from. For as far as we know (many generations) no ancestors have married outside their country of origin. my mother was the first and it was very hard on her family because it was the end of their strong ethnic line. My grandparents and their siblings were very fond and proud of their country of origin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Indeed. When you have a small group of people intermarrying, they will have a separate identifying marker from those around them.

Except they do not. There is no "jewish" genetic marker. Their are some genes and groups of genes that are much more common among Jews - but none that all Jews (of completely Jewish recent ancestry) share. Not the Cohen Modal Haplotype, or any other.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301023/

It becomes overwhelmingly clear that although Jews maintained detectable vertical genetic continuity along generations of socio-religious-cultural relationship, also intensive horizontal genetic relations were maintained both between Jewish communities and with the gentile surrounding. Thus, in spite of considerable consanguinity, there is no Jewish genotype to identify.

This particular thread is about Ashkenazi Jews, not the overall Jewish group. In that regard, they do have a specific genetic marker, like the diseases that are prevalent in their group.

I am Tay Sachs carrier. My wife (all ashkenazi jewish great grandparents, halavi le shalom) does not. Is she less Jewish than me?

There is NO disease that all Ashkenazi Jews have (even as carriers) There is no gene that all Ashkenazi Jews have (other than those all human beings have). Thus there is no Ashkenazi genetic marker,

I think perhaps you are confused as to what a genetic marker is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Ok, then bring your case to those who have actually studied this.

here ya go

https://www.zdnet.com/article/scientists-ethnicity-may-not-exist-genetically-speaking/

DP... I didn't read the entire study, but this caught my attention: they studied Central Asia: the Turkic and Indo-Iranian groups.

That area straddles two continents, and with the migration pattern of both Europeans and Asians, it would be harder to find a distinct marker that identifies them as white or asian. They are going to be a mish/mash of both, and thus have more differences with both groups.

Find me a peer reviewed genetic paper that contradicts it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Indeed. When you have a small group of people intermarrying, they will have a separate identifying marker from those around them.

Except they do not. There is no "jewish" genetic marker. Their are some genes and groups of genes that are much more common among Jews - but none that all Jews (of completely Jewish recent ancestry) share. Not the Cohen Modal Haplotype, or any other.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301023/

It becomes overwhelmingly clear that although Jews maintained detectable vertical genetic continuity along generations of socio-religious-cultural relationship, also intensive horizontal genetic relations were maintained both between Jewish communities and with the gentile surrounding. Thus, in spite of considerable consanguinity, there is no Jewish genotype to identify.

This particular thread is about Ashkenazi Jews, not the overall Jewish group. In that regard, they do have a specific genetic marker, like the diseases that are prevalent in their group.

I am Tay Sachs carrier. My wife (all ashkenazi jewish great grandparents, halavi le shalom) does not. Is she less Jewish than me?

There is NO disease that all Ashkenazi Jews have (even as carriers) There is no gene that all Ashkenazi Jews have (other than those all human beings have). Thus there is no Ashkenazi genetic marker,

I think perhaps you are confused as to what a genetic marker is?

I'm not referring to a racial marker, but a marker that is prevalent among a certain group, which does exist. When I was pregnant, the doctor's questionnaire asked if I was Ashkenazi because in that group, certain diseases are more prevalent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Ok, then bring your case to those who have actually studied this.

here ya go

https://www.zdnet.com/article/scientists-ethnicity-may-not-exist-genetically-speaking/

DP... I didn't read the entire study, but this caught my attention: they studied Central Asia: the Turkic and Indo-Iranian groups.

That area straddles two continents, and with the migration pattern of both Europeans and Asians, it would be harder to find a distinct marker that identifies them as white or asian. They are going to be a mish/mash of both, and thus have more differences with both groups.

Find me a peer reviewed genetic paper that contradicts it.

contradicts what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI to PP: not everyone considers Ashkenazi Jews white, but there’s really no agreed upon definition of “white,” so it’s really just an endless debate.

again, then what are Syrians and Persians?

If you look at the origins of Ashkenazi Jews they come from Europe. People from Europe are considered white. Doesn't matter that they have their own culture, religion or shared genetic marker. Their origins are European.

Well actually I am an ashkenazic Jew and I don't come from Europe, I come from New York City.

its true my ancestors came to the US from Europe. About 60% of THEIR ancestors came from the middle east - they brough with them in addition to their genes, their middle eastern language and alphabet, and even agricultural holidays that match the seasons of the eastern Med, not of Poland.

Well, then I guess that makes your race a New Yorker, then. I'm from CA, but my ancestors are from Asia. I guess by your logic racially that makes me a Californian.

Your ancestors are from Europe and/or the Middle East. So, what are Syrians? No one seems to answer this question. IMO, they are white, and so are you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

They are human beings, who have suffered terribly.

They are mostly muslims, but also many christians, and a few are secular.

They speak Arabic, except some speak Kurdish as a first language. Many speak French as a second language.

The whole problem here is "What are X" with the expectation that some "race" (classifications defined in the 19th century, largely based on power relations) is the answer.

Can't answer the question, then. Since the US government still uses "race", they will have to define themselves one or the other, or the US government will do it for them.

The US govt does so for the purpose of determining social facts (income, poverty, etc) among actual, socially defined groups in the US (Which is why "black" is based on US cultural definitions of black, not on proportion of african ancestry.

These do not necessarily match well with immigrants who never had the historical experiences of the US. That is a problem for the census bureau, and users of its data. Whatever answer they come up with, should not make us thing that there is any "essential truth" in it.

Again, still doesn't answer the question of what a Syrian is. If you don't believe in race, then fine. Then this question is not for you.

[Anonymous]

Just do not see it. It sounds like white supremacy garbage. It’s a religion. You choose to believe or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Ok, then bring your case to those who have actually studied this.

here ya go

https://www.zdnet.com/article/scientists-ethnicity-may-not-exist-genetically-speaking/

DP... I didn't read the entire study, but this caught my attention: they studied Central Asia: the Turkic and Indo-Iranian groups.

That area straddles two continents, and with the migration pattern of both Europeans and Asians, it would be harder to find a distinct marker that identifies them as white or asian. They are going to be a mish/mash of both, and thus have more differences with both groups.

Find me a peer reviewed genetic paper that contradicts it.

contradicts what?

Contradicts the paper that says ethnicity may not exist genetically speaking?

Are you one of the folks claiming to be ethnically ashkenazi? You realize you are helping to disprove a stereotype?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, but studies have shown Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews have remarkable genetic homogeneity.

Also, PP: I am Jewish, not alt right. I am proud of my Jewish ethnicity and claim it, regardless of the fact that anti-Semites have exploited it to try to exterminate my grandparents and other relatives.

We are strong and proud and reject your attempts to deny our ethnic identity.

Its remarkable, I suppose, that they have 60% mideastern ancestry (probably) after 2000 years. But they are still 40% european ancestry, and anyway, all that is, is a certain degree of genetici homogeneity in a cultural religious group. It does not make it an "ethnic group".

Ok, then bring your case to those who have actually studied this.

here ya go

https://www.zdnet.com/article/scientists-ethnicity-may-not-exist-genetically-speaking/

DP... I didn't read the entire study, but this caught my attention: they studied Central Asia: the Turkic and Indo-Iranian groups.

That area straddles two continents, and with the migration pattern of both Europeans and Asians, it would be harder to find a distinct marker that identifies them as white or asian. They are going to be a mish/mash of both, and thus have more differences with both groups.

Find me a peer reviewed genetic paper that contradicts it.

contradicts what?

Contradicts the paper that says ethnicity may not exist genetically speaking?

Are you one of the folks claiming to be ethnically ashkenazi? You realize you are helping to disprove a stereotype?

nope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI to PP: not everyone considers Ashkenazi Jews white, but there’s really no agreed upon definition of “white,” so it’s really just an endless debate.

again, then what are Syrians and Persians?

If you look at the origins of Ashkenazi Jews they come from Europe. People from Europe are considered white. Doesn't matter that they have their own culture, religion or shared genetic marker. Their origins are European.

Well actually I am an ashkenazic Jew and I don't come from Europe, I come from New York City.

its true my ancestors came to the US from Europe. About 60% of THEIR ancestors came from the middle east - they brough with them in addition to their genes, their middle eastern language and alphabet, and even agricultural holidays that match the seasons of the eastern Med, not of Poland.

Well, then I guess that makes your race a New Yorker, then. I'm from CA, but my ancestors are from Asia. I guess by your logic racially that makes me a Californian.

Your ancestors are from Europe and/or the Middle East. So, what are Syrians? No one seems to answer this question. IMO, they are white, and so are you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews

They are human beings, who have suffered terribly.

They are mostly muslims, but also many christians, and a few are secular.

They speak Arabic, except some speak Kurdish as a first language. Many speak French as a second language.

The whole problem here is "What are X" with the expectation that some "race" (classifications defined in the 19th century, largely based on power relations) is the answer.

Can't answer the question, then. Since the US government still uses "race", they will have to define themselves one or the other, or the US government will do it for them.

The US govt does so for the purpose of determining social facts (income, poverty, etc) among actual, socially defined groups in the US (Which is why "black" is based on US cultural definitions of black, not on proportion of african ancestry.

These do not necessarily match well with immigrants who never had the historical experiences of the US. That is a problem for the census bureau, and users of its data. Whatever answer they come up with, should not make us thing that there is any "essential truth" in it.

Again, still doesn't answer the question of what a Syrian is. If you don't believe in race, then fine. Then this question is not for you.

I told you above what a Syrian is.

What the Census defines them as is a question for the census, whose answer should be based on what is most useful to users of Census data.