PSA: Jews are a racial group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trying to be so exclusive is offensive to those who are kept out.

It’s not exclusive to define yourself as an ethnoreligious group. Not everyone can be a part of every group. Jews don’t proselytize for a reason; we’re happy to be who we are, and don’t feel we need tons and tons of us.

I also agree with PP; most of this thread is hugely offensive to the Jewish people.

As in, why dare you question who we think we are?

Exactly, actually. If we say, "Hey, you can be Jewish if you engage with one of the following: our religion, our ethnicity/culture, and/or you have certain genetic backgrounds (essentially Ashkenazi or Sephardic)" we would appreciate it if you would just say "ok, cool." We do not appreciate it when you say, "That's horrible/alt-right of you to say! How dare you! You are only a religion and nothing else!"

We're allowed to define what it means to be part of our group. We don't push our criteria on anyone else; in fact, we don't proselytize at all. If you want to be part of our group, you can convert. Those of us who have genetic backgrounds that are Jewish don't need to convert. This is simply how we define what it means to be Jewish. It's how we've defined it for thousands of years.

You're also allowed to argue endlessly among yourselves about who is more Jewish than whom.

Is there any sort of "authority" to settle this age old dispute? No.

Jews argue. It’s what we do, a piece of evidence that we hold education in high regard. Better to argue from a place of knowledge than sit back and just nod along. One of the most important documents in Judaism, the Talmud, is a collection of learned arguments.

Is this why there's no definitive answer to who is Jewish? How is that helpful to anyone?

If you mean is there a definitive answer to the question in Jewish law (i am skipping pages of argumentation here) the authority is the rabbis. Collectively. That is how Jewish law works. On some issues that means different opinions are all valid ORTHODOX Jewish opinions. On some there is a consensus. There is some disagreement on whether continued disagreement on points of substance is a bug or a feature.

The Orthodox as a general rule do not accept as valid (or needed for consensus) the opinions of Conservative scholars, though Conservative Judaism often looks to the opinions of contemporary Orthodox scholars (it does not consider premodern rabbis to be "orthodox".

Reform Jews have opinions, though until fairly recently they did not accept the notion of "Jewish law"

As for the non halachic meaning - ethnic, cultural what have - anyone can debate that. Because "we live in a free country" But unlike the halachic issue which affects things like whose wedding a particular rabbi would officiate at,that has no practical implications.

Note in Israel who is a Jew is determined, for internal things (such as marriages) by the Orthodox Chief Rabbinate. However for immigration it is determined by the state, which has not always agreed (in particular the state has accepted the immigration under the law of return of people converted to Judaism by Conservative and Reform rabbis, not recognized by the Chief Rabbinate)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trying to be so exclusive is offensive to those who are kept out.

It’s not exclusive to define yourself as an ethnoreligious group. Not everyone can be a part of every group. Jews don’t proselytize for a reason; we’re happy to be who we are, and don’t feel we need tons and tons of us.

I also agree with PP; most of this thread is hugely offensive to the Jewish people.

As in, why dare you question who we think we are?

Exactly, actually. If we say, "Hey, you can be Jewish if you engage with one of the following: our religion, our ethnicity/culture, and/or you have certain genetic backgrounds (essentially Ashkenazi or Sephardic)" we would appreciate it if you would just say "ok, cool." We do not appreciate it when you say, "That's horrible/alt-right of you to say! How dare you! You are only a religion and nothing else!"

We're allowed to define what it means to be part of our group. We don't push our criteria on anyone else; in fact, we don't proselytize at all. If you want to be part of our group, you can convert. Those of us who have genetic backgrounds that are Jewish don't need to convert. This is simply how we define what it means to be Jewish. It's how we've defined it for thousands of years.

You're also allowed to argue endlessly among yourselves about who is more Jewish than whom.

Is there any sort of "authority" to settle this age old dispute? No.

Jews argue. It’s what we do, a piece of evidence that we hold education in high regard. Better to argue from a place of knowledge than sit back and just nod along. One of the most important documents in Judaism, the Talmud, is a collection of learned arguments.

Is this why there's no definitive answer to who is Jewish? How is that helpful to anyone?

If you mean is there a definitive answer to the question in Jewish law (i am skipping pages of argumentation here) the authority is the rabbis. Collectively. That is how Jewish law works. On some issues that means different opinions are all valid ORTHODOX Jewish opinions. On some there is a consensus. There is some disagreement on whether continued disagreement on points of substance is a bug or a feature.

The Orthodox as a general rule do not accept as valid (or needed for consensus) the opinions of Conservative scholars, though Conservative Judaism often looks to the opinions of contemporary Orthodox scholars (it does not consider premodern rabbis to be "orthodox".

Reform Jews have opinions, though until fairly recently they did not accept the notion of "Jewish law"

As for the non halachic meaning - ethnic, cultural what have - anyone can debate that. Because "we live in a free country" But unlike the halachic issue which affects things like whose wedding a particular rabbi would officiate at,that has no practical implications.

Note in Israel who is a Jew is determined, for internal things (such as marriages) by the Orthodox Chief Rabbinate. However for immigration it is determined by the state, which has not always agreed (in particular the state has accepted the immigration under the law of return of people converted to Judaism by Conservative and Reform rabbis, not recognized by the Chief Rabbinate)

Right, although as you point out, there is no "collective rabbinical opinion" in reality because of the huge differences among how, say, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Rabbis see things. Absence of a governing hierarchy means things naturally devolve down to the denomination level and, in some cases, the congregation level. That's hard to understand for most Christians because most Christian denominations have hierarchical authority structures, but Judaism just doesn't work like that.

[Anonymous]

We are all human beings and all the same! We all come from the same place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are all human beings and all the same! We all come from the same place.

So that means we can’t enjoy being part of different groups? We aren’t saying you’re worse because you’re not Jewish (our religion doesn’t work like that), so what’s your problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trying to be so exclusive is offensive to those who are kept out.

It’s not exclusive to define yourself as an ethnoreligious group. Not everyone can be a part of every group. Jews don’t proselytize for a reason; we’re happy to be who we are, and don’t feel we need tons and tons of us.

I also agree with PP; most of this thread is hugely offensive to the Jewish people.

As in, why dare you question who we think we are?

Exactly, actually. If we say, "Hey, you can be Jewish if you engage with one of the following: our religion, our ethnicity/culture, and/or you have certain genetic backgrounds (essentially Ashkenazi or Sephardic)" we would appreciate it if you would just say "ok, cool." We do not appreciate it when you say, "That's horrible/alt-right of you to say! How dare you! You are only a religion and nothing else!"

We're allowed to define what it means to be part of our group. We don't push our criteria on anyone else; in fact, we don't proselytize at all. If you want to be part of our group, you can convert. Those of us who have genetic backgrounds that are Jewish don't need to convert. This is simply how we define what it means to be Jewish. It's how we've defined it for thousands of years.

You're also allowed to argue endlessly among yourselves about who is more Jewish than whom.

Is there any sort of "authority" to settle this age old dispute? No.

Jews argue. It’s what we do, a piece of evidence that we hold education in high regard. Better to argue from a place of knowledge than sit back and just nod along. One of the most important documents in Judaism, the Talmud, is a collection of learned arguments.

Just listen to yourself. It's ain't that great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trying to be so exclusive is offensive to those who are kept out.

It’s not exclusive to define yourself as an ethnoreligious group. Not everyone can be a part of every group. Jews don’t proselytize for a reason; we’re happy to be who we are, and don’t feel we need tons and tons of us.

I also agree with PP; most of this thread is hugely offensive to the Jewish people.

As in, why dare you question who we think we are?

Exactly, actually. If we say, "Hey, you can be Jewish if you engage with one of the following: our religion, our ethnicity/culture, and/or you have certain genetic backgrounds (essentially Ashkenazi or Sephardic)" we would appreciate it if you would just say "ok, cool." We do not appreciate it when you say, "That's horrible/alt-right of you to say! How dare you! You are only a religion and nothing else!"

We're allowed to define what it means to be part of our group. We don't push our criteria on anyone else; in fact, we don't proselytize at all. If you want to be part of our group, you can convert. Those of us who have genetic backgrounds that are Jewish don't need to convert. This is simply how we define what it means to be Jewish. It's how we've defined it for thousands of years.

You're also allowed to argue endlessly among yourselves about who is more Jewish than whom.

Is there any sort of "authority" to settle this age old dispute? No.

Jews argue. It’s what we do, a piece of evidence that we hold education in high regard. Better to argue from a place of knowledge than sit back and just nod along. One of the most important documents in Judaism, the Talmud, is a collection of learned arguments.

Just listen to yourself. It's ain't that great.

What are you even talking about?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are all human beings and all the same! We all come from the same place.

We all come from the same place, and go to the same place.

Good luck convincing Democrats who depend on identity politics and the old "divide and conquer".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are all human beings and all the same! We all come from the same place.

We all come from the same place, and go to the same place.

Good luck convincing Democrats who depend on identity politics and the old "divide and conquer".

Well said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are all human beings and all the same! We all come from the same place.

We all come from the same place, but the events that shape us are different. That’s why “color blindness” doesn’t work—we are all humans and the same on the inside, but the circumstances surrounding Jews (or black people or refugees or...) are different from other people’s circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of Muslims with roots in the MidEast and North Africa that have Sephardic and Ashkenazi DNA. Can they also claim to be Jewish? Not to get political (but it's slightly inevitable)... do they have a right to return? What percentage of DNA 'counts' for Muslims who have 'Jewish' DNA?

The right of return criteria is a grandparent who is Jewish, so yes they could have that right.

A Muslim with Ashkenazi or Sephardic roots would be ethnicity Jewish (as one of probably multiple ethnicities they have) and religiously Muslim (assuming they consider themselves religiously Muslim).

This right to return had always been weird to me. So the Arabs living there generation after generation who then were forced out have no right to return, but any Jew has a right to return? Why???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of Muslims with roots in the MidEast and North Africa that have Sephardic and Ashkenazi DNA. Can they also claim to be Jewish? Not to get political (but it's slightly inevitable)... do they have a right to return? What percentage of DNA 'counts' for Muslims who have 'Jewish' DNA?

The right of return criteria is a grandparent who is Jewish, so yes they could have that right.

A Muslim with Ashkenazi or Sephardic roots would be ethnicity Jewish (as one of probably multiple ethnicities they have) and religiously Muslim (assuming they consider themselves religiously Muslim).

This right to return had always been weird to me. So the Arabs living there generation after generation who then were forced out have no right to return, but any Jew has a right to return? Why???

It’s an Israeli law. You really need to separate Israeli politics from Jewish identity.

- A Jew who hates Israel

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of Muslims with roots in the MidEast and North Africa that have Sephardic and Ashkenazi DNA. Can they also claim to be Jewish? Not to get political (but it's slightly inevitable)... do they have a right to return? What percentage of DNA 'counts' for Muslims who have 'Jewish' DNA?

The right of return criteria is a grandparent who is Jewish, so yes they could have that right.

A Muslim with Ashkenazi or Sephardic roots would be ethnicity Jewish (as one of probably multiple ethnicities they have) and religiously Muslim (assuming they consider themselves religiously Muslim).

This right to return had always been weird to me. So the Arabs living there generation after generation who then were forced out have no right to return, but any Jew has a right to return? Why???

It’s an Israeli law. You really need to separate Israeli politics from Jewish identity.

- A Jew who hates Israel

Yes but how is it justified? It doesn’t make sense to me. Just trying to understand!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are all human beings and all the same! We all come from the same place.

We all come from the same place, but the events that shape us are different. That’s why “color blindness” doesn’t work—we are all humans and the same on the inside, but the circumstances surrounding Jews (or black people or refugees or...) are different from other people’s circumstances.

We all have suffering in common

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are all human beings and all the same! We all come from the same place.

We all come from the same place, but the events that shape us are different. That’s why “color blindness” doesn’t work—we are all humans and the same on the inside, but the circumstances surrounding Jews (or black people or refugees or...) are different from other people’s circumstances.

We all have suffering in common

Really? Yes most groups have suffered in some way, but do you have any clue how much discrimination and attempted genocide the Jewish people have experienced? Come on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of Muslims with roots in the MidEast and North Africa that have Sephardic and Ashkenazi DNA. Can they also claim to be Jewish? Not to get political (but it's slightly inevitable)... do they have a right to return? What percentage of DNA 'counts' for Muslims who have 'Jewish' DNA?

The right of return criteria is a grandparent who is Jewish, so yes they could have that right.

A Muslim with Ashkenazi or Sephardic roots would be ethnicity Jewish (as one of probably multiple ethnicities they have) and religiously Muslim (assuming they consider themselves religiously Muslim).

This right to return had always been weird to me. So the Arabs living there generation after generation who then were forced out have no right to return, but any Jew has a right to return? Why???

It’s an Israeli law. You really need to separate Israeli politics from Jewish identity.

- A Jew who hates Israel

Yes but how is it justified? It doesn’t make sense to me. Just trying to understand!

They have many arab countries to go to (and maybe one day soon a Palestinian state on the West Bank) while Israel is the only Jewish country, the only reliable refuge for Jews. (by the way "forced out" is an oversimplification of what happened in 1948)

I do think it would be fair though, if Jews who say that they "hate Israel" lose their right to move there - unfortunately there is no provisio in Israeli law for that, so if and when you find yourself persecuted as a Jew, you will still have the right to move there.