It just sucks - not even offered internship - (sigh)

[Anonymous]

Question for all you working mothers: how do you know there is a gap because of childcare? How do you know what the gap was for?
Certainly you can't ask. Are you assuming?

1. What if they were sick with cancer and then recovered?
2. Cared for 2 elderly parents with multiple medical issues, including schizophrenia?
3. Cared for a severely disabled child at the end of their life (Krebbs disease for example)?

These are 3 real life examples from my family and social group where women took years off and then returned to the workforce.
Are these acceptable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, OP, but I don't feel bad. This is a conscious choice you made, to give up your career and be supported by your husband, and you are now perceived as always putting career on the back burner. PTSA and HOA simply don't translate to the real world.

Is this advice you would say to your daughter?

Actually, yes it is.

Me too. And it's the advice my Mother gave me. Feminism is all about choices. You don't have to stay home or work and be confined to old stereotypes. But men and women should be treated equally. If a man stays home for years he can't get back in easily either. This isn't about feminism. This is about workplace dynamics.

Same advice I'd give my DD. Doesn't mean you should never SAH -- but if you become a SAHM, go in with eyes wide open. You can't take 5+ years off until the kids go to kindergarten and expect to waltz back in to any professional position, let alone the professional position you had earlier.

And I agree it's not just a SAHM thing. I know several guys who have taken 5-7 yrs off to be stay home dads, and I can't say it's any easier getting back in; if anything, they also face the stigma of -- what kind of guy stays home with the kids??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why should female hiring managers be MORE sympathetic to SAHM wanting to return to the workforce? They have a job to fill and need to do it with the best person available. That may not be the SAHM.

While it isn't a working versus SAHM debate, this thread clearly outlines one of the challenges of SAHM in our society. Many working moms have made that decision, that they don't want to be out of the professional workforce. Others don't have the choice.

However, when you have the choice and have opted for 13 years out of a professional situation, then the consequences are going to be the challenge to re-enter. It isn't on the hiring manager to be sympathetic, it is on the applicant to put themselves in the position of being the absolute best candidate.

The woe is me stuff is not befitting.

I really don't think you are reading these responses closely enough; there are "hiring managers" on here saying they would ALWAYS hire a millennial over someone who chose to stay home for any amount of time. And, if you read the post, the OP is is venting that she cannot get an UNPAID position, so she understands she has to aim low. The problem here is that women are refusing to understand that a woman who has 15 years of experience and stayed home for 5 may have some experience over someone with 2 years of experience. One poster pointed out she has MORE of a vested interest to succeed than a millennial because she has expenses they don't, and they aren't burnt out.

I don't think there is a single SAHM that doesn't know what their choice does to their career, but women are pointing out the extreme bias that they have toward a woman or man who left the workforce as being weak, stupid, not hungry enough, lazy, out of date, and so on.

Some women have been helpful on these types of threads by giving practical advice over trying to shame them. And, the OP is clearly venting that she cannot work for FREE, and yet some women like pp can't help but sink their fangs into her.

And, for every "feminist" who says this is her due, then you are not a feminist.

NP here. Well, the thing is feminists want men and women to be treated equally. The reality is that a man who drops out of the workforce for 13 years would face the same difficulty getting back in. This actually isn't a women's issue.

If you are going to take a decade off and then try to get back into the workforce at an older age with so many years off, it's not going to be easy -- even for unpaid positions. A 45-year-old man who was out of work for 13 years (even by choice) will have a hard time competing -- even for unpaid internships -- with a 24-year-old.

Some PPs are harsh, but this isn't about SAHM. In some ways, it's more of an agism issue because even a 45-year-old man or woman who was laid off for less than a year will have a tough time competing against younger applicants (unless they're in an in-demand field). That is why people always say: It's easier to get a job when you already have one. The one exception to that rule is recent grads. It sounds like OP is competing against recent grads.

OP, work your network. Do you still have contacts from when you were working 13 years ago? That's where you need to focus your energy. Find someone you know, someone you've worked with (even if it was a long time ago), and reach out to them for opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Question for all you working mothers: how do you know there is a gap because of childcare? How do you know what the gap was for?
Certainly you can't ask. Are you assuming?

1. What if they were sick with cancer and then recovered?
2. Cared for 2 elderly parents with multiple medical issues, including schizophrenia?
3. Cared for a severely disabled child at the end of their life (Krebbs disease for example)?

These are 3 real life examples from my family and social group where women took years off and then returned to the workforce.
Are these acceptable?

Usually people who have taken time off for the preceding tend to state it in an interview and/or cover letter. I'm not suggesting they go into every medical detail, but they let it be known that something serious was going on that required their full time attention; they don't make excuses for it. In contrast, many SAHMs show how "busy" and "relevant" they still were by taking about their PTA and HOA experience.

[Anonymous]

sink their fangs into her

^ this. Op is looking for an UNPAID opportunity to start at THE BOTTOM - - again!
And yet, you won't cut her any slack.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Question for all you working mothers: how do you know there is a gap because of childcare? How do you know what the gap was for?
Certainly you can't ask. Are you assuming?

1. What if they were sick with cancer and then recovered?
2. Cared for 2 elderly parents with multiple medical issues, including schizophrenia?
3. Cared for a severely disabled child at the end of their life (Krebbs disease for example)?

These are 3 real life examples from my family and social group where women took years off and then returned to the workforce.
Are these acceptable?

The fact that you are equating these situations with the average SAHMs situation - nothing like what OP said - speaks volumes about you, and not positively.

It's more akin to taking years to travel the world. Your choice? Sure. Respectable? Sure, in some circles. Something that can hurt you in the workforce? Absolutely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, OP, but I don't feel bad. This is a conscious choice you made, to give up your career and be supported by your husband, and you are now perceived as always putting career on the back burner. PTSA and HOA simply don't translate to the real world.

Is this advice you would say to your daughter?

Actually, yes it is.

Me too. And it's the advice my Mother gave me. Feminism is all about choices. You don't have to stay home or work and be confined to old stereotypes. But men and women should be treated equally. If a man stays home for years he can't get back in easily either. This isn't about feminism. This is about workplace dynamics.

Same advice I'd give my DD. Doesn't mean you should never SAH -- but if you become a SAHM, go in with eyes wide open. You can't take 5+ years off until the kids go to kindergarten and expect to waltz back in to any professional position, let alone the professional position you had earlier.

And I agree it's not just a SAHM thing. I know several guys who have taken 5-7 yrs off to be stay home dads, and I can't say it's any easier getting back in; if anything, they also face the stigma of -- what kind of guy stays home with the kids??

Absolutely the same for guys, if not worse. Which is why the feminism straw man argument makes no sense. You take voluntary (recovering from cancer is not voluntary) time off, you pay the price.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Question for all you working mothers: how do you know there is a gap because of childcare? How do you know what the gap was for?
Certainly you can't ask. Are you assuming?

1. What if they were sick with cancer and then recovered?
2. Cared for 2 elderly parents with multiple medical issues, including schizophrenia?
3. Cared for a severely disabled child at the end of their life (Krebbs disease for example)?

These are 3 real life examples from my family and social group where women took years off and then returned to the workforce.
Are these acceptable?

The fact that you are equating these situations with the average SAHMs situation - nothing like what OP said - speaks volumes about you, and not positively.

It's more akin to taking years to travel the world. Your choice? Sure. Respectable? Sure, in some circles. Something that can hurt you in the workforce? Absolutely.

Please re-read. My question was HOW would you know what the gap was for? An interviewer is now allowed to ask, and on every thread on here it is a resounding "NO" that you never mention that you stayed home or anything about your kids, availability of childcare, etc.
So again my question for all the working moms on hiring committees is how they would know what the gap was for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Question for all you working mothers: how do you know there is a gap because of childcare? How do you know what the gap was for?
Certainly you can't ask. Are you assuming?

1. What if they were sick with cancer and then recovered?
2. Cared for 2 elderly parents with multiple medical issues, including schizophrenia?
3. Cared for a severely disabled child at the end of their life (Krebbs disease for example)?

These are 3 real life examples from my family and social group where women took years off and then returned to the workforce.
Are these acceptable?

Usually people who have taken time off for the preceding tend to state it in an interview and/or cover letter. I'm not suggesting they go into every medical detail, but they let it be known that something serious was going on that required their full time attention; they don't make excuses for it. In contrast, many SAHMs show how "busy" and "relevant" they still were by taking about their PTA and HOA experience.

Absolutely not. Someone states in a cover letter they were a caretaker for family and you would 100% assume it was for childcare. Or another SAHM trying to make it look like she was doing more.
Someone would not announce they had cancer and almost died in a cover letter

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Question for all you working mothers: how do you know there is a gap because of childcare? How do you know what the gap was for?
Certainly you can't ask. Are you assuming?

1. What if they were sick with cancer and then recovered?
2. Cared for 2 elderly parents with multiple medical issues, including schizophrenia?
3. Cared for a severely disabled child at the end of their life (Krebbs disease for example)?

These are 3 real life examples from my family and social group where women took years off and then returned to the workforce.
Are these acceptable?

The fact that you are equating these situations with the average SAHMs situation - nothing like what OP said - speaks volumes about you, and not positively.

It's more akin to taking years to travel the world. Your choice? Sure. Respectable? Sure, in some circles. Something that can hurt you in the workforce? Absolutely.

Please re-read. My question was HOW would you know what the gap was for? An interviewer is now allowed to ask, and on every thread on here it is a resounding "NO" that you never mention that you stayed home or anything about your kids, availability of childcare, etc.
So again my question for all the working moms on hiring committees is how they would know what the gap was for.

The examples you mention are not common. In those situations, they'd be most likely mentioned in a cover letter. Are you really this naive, or are you posing arguments just for the sake of it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, OP, but I don't feel bad. This is a conscious choice you made, to give up your career and be supported by your husband, and you are now perceived as always putting career on the back burner. PTSA and HOA simply don't translate to the real world.

Is this advice you would say to your daughter?

Actually, yes it is.

Me too. And it's the advice my Mother gave me. Feminism is all about choices. You don't have to stay home or work and be confined to old stereotypes. But men and women should be treated equally. If a man stays home for years he can't get back in easily either. This isn't about feminism. This is about workplace dynamics.

ding! ding! ding!

We have a winner!

yep! workplace dynamics

[Anonymous]

To the PP who is citing caring for aging parents: I am totally sympathetic to your point - people take time off for plenty of reasons other than SAHM. Fwiw, half the people in my office are currently or have been recently helping to care for sick / aging parents. Including myself. My work place has been fantastic about it.

But most of us can't or don't take 13 years off to do it. And if we did, our career opportunities would probably suffer. It's hard to break back into any field after a long absence, irrespective of the cause.

OP, I watched a friend go through this, although she wasn't really a SAHM - just an adventure seeker who spent a number of years travelling, starting businesses, working odd jobs, along with her husband and child. When she came back to DC to return to her "original" field at least a decade had passed. She had stuff on her resume but it was incoherent and a lot of it was way dated (pro tip: the fed internship you had in the early 90s isn't all that persuasive today!!) It took her 2 years to find a job that was anywhere near her interests. And it wasn't a great one; it paid what my college grad assistant makes (and I don't work at a well-paid organization.) But a year in that job, she got another offer, for more than twice the pay and a lot of responsibility. She'll never fully get back to where she could have been without the decade break -- but I think she was very happy to have those experiences and is okay with having a less than perfect job in her 40s (as most of us do!)

[Anonymous]

It's not you OP - it's a reflection of a sick society that only values people giving up their lives to the treadmill.

When you are on your deathbed, you will remember the time you had with your children - not slaving away at "work".

Society is going to be in for a rude awakening 15-20 years from now when unemployment is at 30%+.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, OP, but I don't feel bad. This is a conscious choice you made, to give up your career and be supported by your husband, and you are now perceived as always putting career on the back burner. PTSA and HOA simply don't translate to the real world.

^^ burned by the ex-wife for alimony, are ya?

Uh, hardly. I'm a (female, with young kids) hiring manager who would never pass up a motivated young recent grad for someone who quit voluntarily and is now out of the game. Harsh but true. Based on OP's post I'm not alone.

I am sorry you are so bitter that someone else is raising your children while you work your important job of hiring manager.
Some women can handle that other women made the choice to stay home, but you obviously can't. I'm sorry for you.

You go ahead and hire millennials and I'll be laughing at all the training and behavior modification your organization will need to do because of your misguided philosophy!

Although I disagree with your "someone else is raising your children" comment, I am with you in terms of hiring millennials vs. an older worker.

My company prefers new grads....they are cheap and have great enthusiasm. Of the 8 new hires we on boarded this past year - only one of them is still with us. Enthusiasm is great, but we didn't need idea people..we wanted staff that can make solid decisions and execute on a given plan. We don't want everything to be about social media, we didn't appreciate the amount of time spent on chatting, complaining about how things are done around here, and the entitlement. It was comical to see how serious these kids were about how we are not meeting their expectations! We let them all go, except for the one and hired 4 "older" contractors who have been very impressive and get the job done. You get what you pay for.

I wonder what your company/field is.

What motivates millennials at work more than anything is seeing that a particular position can lead to something. It's why millenials bust their ass in unpaid or shitty paying jobs on the Hill or in industries like finance or consulting where there is a clear progression laid out and companies are invested in the development of talent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why should female hiring managers be MORE sympathetic to SAHM wanting to return to the workforce? They have a job to fill and need to do it with the best person available. That may not be the SAHM.

While it isn't a working versus SAHM debate, this thread clearly outlines one of the challenges of SAHM in our society. Many working moms have made that decision, that they don't want to be out of the professional workforce. Others don't have the choice.

However, when you have the choice and have opted for 13 years out of a professional situation, then the consequences are going to be the challenge to re-enter. It isn't on the hiring manager to be sympathetic, it is on the applicant to put themselves in the position of being the absolute best candidate.

The woe is me stuff is not befitting.

I really don't think you are reading these responses closely enough; there are "hiring managers" on here saying they would ALWAYS hire a millennial over someone who chose to stay home for any amount of time. And, if you read the post, the OP is is venting that she cannot get an UNPAID position, so she understands she has to aim low. The problem here is that women are refusing to understand that a woman who has 15 years of experience and stayed home for 5 may have some experience over someone with 2 years of experience. One poster pointed out she has MORE of a vested interest to succeed than a millennial because she has expenses they don't, and they aren't burnt out.

I don't think there is a single SAHM that doesn't know what their choice does to their career, but women are pointing out the extreme bias that they have toward a woman or man who left the workforce as being weak, stupid, not hungry enough, lazy, out of date, and so on.

Some women have been helpful on these types of threads by giving practical advice over trying to shame them. And, the OP is clearly venting that she cannot work for FREE, and yet some women like pp can't help but sink their fangs into her.

And, for every "feminist" who says this is her due, then you are not a feminist.

APPLAUSE. So very, very true.