What is Just Compensation for a "Life Lost"?
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Anonymous
I think this is what people hope for but really long term spousal support is not typical. It's not that there isn't money to the family because child support can be quite generous. But often little more than that is available. This is why things like pre- and post nuptial agreements can be so important when one spouse is taking a career hit for the good of the family. |
Anonymous
Agree. Also, the scenario above is not applicable to the OP. She's working, she just doesn't consider her work "stable". She can stabilize it in three years. |
Anonymous
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I wish I could have three years of being paid (presumably) a 4 figure salary to give me time to "get my life together." Everyone does.
I'd be hitting the gym, getting my health together, finishing any additional educational needs. it would be a life changing gift for me. This thread should serve as a yet another warning to any men or women who are considering a SAHM scenario in modern times. |
Anonymous
Sorry. Obviously that should be five figures. |
Anonymous
Agree. In big-money cases, very long-term marriages, where one spouse has not worked in decades, and is on the older side to successfully jump-start a career (has anyone employed or unemployed tried to get another job in their fifties lately? It is not easy!), the non-working spouse does often make out well. The judge in those cases may be swayed by the fact that the working spouse had the freedom, energy, and peace-of-mind to go all-in on their careers for decades and decades because the at-home spouse spent decades and decades out of the professional work force and taking care of their home and family life. Also when bigger money is involved, starting at least five million net worth, the courts often feel that there is enough money available to distribute the wealth equitably long-term among the spouses. Some do this by agreeing to some very large, lump-sum payout, where the working spouse gives the other spouse everything, but earns so much annually that they can quickly make it back. Others do this by agreeing to very large alimony payments, ten or hundreds of thousands a month, for a period of many years, often for as long the 25 or 30 years they were married. And in big money cases the working spouse agrees to cover all the ciosts or private college and graduate school. You can basically only feel that it is fine to stay home financially if your spouse is a big-income earner, you give up your career for decades such that it is not recoverable because you are too old and have been out of the workforce too long, and your marriage was very long-term. Now athletes and other big-money celebrities often pay large alimony to spouses they had for much less time, and who in many cases married them for the money in the first place. |
Anonymous
And what should those women and men conclude, after reading that Virginia law says when ordering support the judge should consider "[t]he decisions regarding employment, career, economics, education and parenting arrangements made by the parties during the marriage and their effect on present and future earning potential, including the length of time one or both of the parties have been absent from the job market" and "[t]he extent to which either party has contributed to the attainment of education, training, career position or profession of the other party."? |
Anonymous
They should not boo hooo when then get a divorce and the laws do not work to their favor.... or they should get a pre-nup and spell out exactly what they expect. |
Anonymous
| To the long post above. It is true that if you have not worked in decades finding a job that pays more than minimum wage will be tough. One day you wake up and you are 60. |
Anonymous
+ 1. Yes, as PP says, a spouse in this situation may find themselves at 50 or 60 and unable to get anything other than a minimum-wage paying job. That is why spouses in this type of situation are often generously compensated during a divorce for a "life lost". |
Anonymous
| Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees. |
Anonymous
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The story of George and Annie (totally fictional).
George is a Vienna boy who attends Virginia Tech, where he earns his BS, MS and PhD in ChE. Annie is a San Francisco girl who earns in BA in Philosophy at Yale. They both meet at Harvard, while she is earning her JD and he is earning his MBA. After Harvard, she clerks on the Fourth Circuit and he begins his career for Mobil. She goes on to join him in the DC area a year later, in 1981, where she is clerking on the Supreme Court. They get married the summer after her clerkship, and she begins work that fall for Skadden in the practice area of Mergers and Acquisitions. They spend the next nine years enjoying life as a high-earning, no-children, career-focused, fun-loving couple. Annie's and George's career are going very well, and they travel all over the world as vacations permit. In her ninth year at the law firm now, Annie has been assured through reviews that she is on the track to make partner in M&A in the next year or two at most. Then George comes home one day, in 1990, to tell Annie that he has been offered a two-year job posting in Abu Dhabi which will surely lead to the executive ranks in Development. Annie considers this, talks to friends, family, and colleagues, and is reassured that a two-year break, after which they will return to DC, should not postpone her partnership opportunities too much -- besides it is a good time to start the family they had always planned. Two years in the UAE turns into three which is then unexpectedly (but why derail George's momentum now?) followed by three years in Nigeria, and now the family has two children - a boy and a girl - both under the age of six. It is now 1996, and George turns down another promotion opportunity in Papua New Guinea to finally return to DC. On the eve of their return, though, another company - Exxon - with whom George has worked, offers him a deputy vice-president position in Development, which pays much more, but is in Houston. George and Annie decide to move to Houston, where two children soon become three. Three years later, in 1999, Exxon and Mobil merge, and George is recalled to Virginia, where his star continues to rise. Annie takes care of the logistics of their move, and as she thinks about where the family should live and where the children will go to school, she contemplates a return to work. Full-time, partnership at Skadden is not eventually out of the question as they want her back, but will be difficult to attain in the near-future as she has not done any M&A work - or indeed any legal work - for the past nine years. Annie settles the family in McLean, gets the two older children into Sidwell, and stays home with the two-year old as she works on hiring a nanny and finding a job. In 2000, Annie finds in-house work at a relatively new corporation, Capital One, which conveniently is located near their home. However, that first year back at work is not easy, one nanny leaves and then another, and their little girl is having constant infections, ear, sinuses, pneumonia, which require constant doctors appointments. George, obviously, cannot or does not want to take the time off of work for these, and in any case he is constantly traveling internationally. Annie finds it increasingly stressful to maintain her legal schedule responsibly at a company that is growing by leaps and bounds while having to pick up the older children from afterschool programs at 6:00 p.m. (when the nanny is making dinner) and take time from her schedule for school meetings, doctor's appointments. However, with the help of an accommodating employer and later a part time schedule, she manages to balance everything for the next year-and-a-half. In late 2001 George is sent to London, and the family follows. More relocation, more finding schools, more transfers in an increasingly tense world. Every time Annie is left to contemplate and coordinate the logistics, help execute the seamless transfer and adjust the children to a great new life in their next stop. It is now 2014, the three children are off and well at Stanford and Virginia Tech as they launch their own careers, and the youngest daughter is about to start at Yale. George is now Vice President at another global oil company and extremely well-situated and compensated. In truth, Annie and George have been growing apart for some time now, and she is ready to return to the States and assume to semblance of a more-normal life closer to the children. George needs to remain abroad for his career, and they amicably decide to divorce at this point after a long, and relatively good marriage. George any Annie have been married 33 years, since 1981. She has been out of legal practice, except for her brief, year-and-a-half long stint at Capital One, back in 2000-2001, for almost twenty-four years. Annie is now a 60-year old, unemployed attorney. George is now a senior vice president of an international oil company earning upwards of $5 million/year. If she takes the next 33 years to try to build up her career, as Goerge took to build up his, she will be almost 90 before she reaches her full earning potential, and that is clearly not going to happen at her age for many reasons. I hope that this completely fabricated example helps to illustrate why a spouse is often compensated for a lifetime career loss. |
Anonymous
Absolutely, yes, IMO. Too often women are forced to make "choices" that really aren't good for THEM. They make "choices" because it is in the best interests of the "family" and then later it works out that there is no more "family" (for any number of reasons) and the woman is left having sacrificed for something that didn't bring long term benefit to herself. This is the story of women's lives since the beginning of history. We are expected to do this, and everything about the way we are raised and the way employment is structured for women encourages us to make these trade offs to benefit others (men and children). OP, I'm sorry that your husband never valued you enough to stop and really focus on why you were unhappy and ask how your joint life could be structured to create a solid job/career for you. That sucks. But, it sounds like there is nothing to be done about that now. You need to listen to the advice of a lawyer about whether the spousal support offered is reasonable under the law and if you could get more by negotiating more or going to court. If you are unsure about your lawyer's advice, by all means get another opinion. Any attorney will be happy to give you one for the price of one or two hours of discussion. Some attorneys are known for valuing collaboration, some are "tougher", so they may have different views about what is possible or where there is room to negotiate. You have to do a cost/benefit analysis based on what you hear from the attorneys. I'd ask particularly about the house/mortgage valuation. There are tax implications as to how he pays the 1/3 of the mortgage, probably (as mortgage straight to the holder or as alimony which has tax implications for you both). Also, why don't you get 50% of the value of the rental property? Was it bought or paid for in any way during the marriage? If so, then it should be split 50/50. What you describe is that he gets all of the equity in the smaller property and 50% of the equity in the main house. That doesn't make sense to me. Also, how is what is in his pension different from what you are "legally entitled to"? Again, if you have been married for a long time, then 50/50 on the pension would be what I would think is correct, unless your STBX had substantial retirement funds prior to meeting you. What about you? Did you and he prioritize any retirement fund payments for you during the marriage? If not, it sounds like neglecting your own retirement fund paid for his retirement fund or other running expenses of the house/marriage/child. Plus, working less means that you will get less Social Security when you are eligible. Child support according to the state formula for how long? Re-evaluated how often? What happens if he gets a raise? What happens if your income goes up? Is the state child support formula enough to cover what you reasonably need in terms of child care now to work more hours at a higher paying job? There are many Qs that need to be answered. Unfortunately, what is "reasonable" under the law is different from what is "reasonable" in terms of morally and ethically correct. It sounds like your spouse doesn't get that you've made any sacrifices and doesn't see any difference between how things can be split "fairly" and how he is obligated to split things "legally". If this is the case, I would really focus on getting 50/50 of all marital assets and considering what you want in terms of child support and custody that would make you happy and give you a chance to excel in a career. For example, if you have custody 4-5 work days a week, will you really be able to work at a job with higher earning potential? What are the arrangements for "child support" in terms of having a babysitter or daycare after school so that you don't have to rush home and pick up DC? |
Anonymous
In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony. As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony. |
Anonymous
Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money. It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale. |
Anonymous
In the example above, Annie was not spending her days at the spa, gym, and country club. She was spending her days taking care of a household and family that was moving regularly around the world so that her spouse could pursue every possible career opportunity, while his and her children also adjusted and thrived with every step, not an easy thing to do. If she had not been so engaged, and required to move around, she would have presumably built a successful law practice like her good friend and former-colleague Meryl. In cases like these, including much less extreme examples of career sacrifice and moves, the career-sacrificing spouse is awarded very healthy, long-term alimony. And in many cases, the very wealthy, high-income ex-spouse does not begrudge them the alimony because they recognize their ex-spouse's sacrifice and contribution to the family, the children's, and indeed their success. I am sorry if that was not your experience, or perhaps you are the type that begrudges an at-home spouse for ultimately getting paid more for his or her in-home work than you are paid for your out-of-the-home work? |