What is Just Compensation for a "Life Lost"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The story of George and Annie (totally fictional).

George is a Vienna boy who attends Virginia Tech, where he earns his BS, MS and PhD in ChE. Annie is a San Francisco girl who earns in BA in Philosophy at Yale. They both meet at Harvard, while she is earning her JD and he is earning his MBA.

After Harvard, she clerks on the Fourth Circuit and he begins his career for Mobil. She goes on to join him in the DC area a year later, in 1981, where she is clerking on the Supreme Court. They get married the summer after her clerkship, and she begins work that fall for Skadden in the practice area of Mergers and Acquisitions.

They spend the next nine years enjoying life as a high-earning, no-children, career-focused, fun-loving couple. Annie's and George's career are going very well, and they travel all over the world as vacations permit. In her ninth year at the law firm now, Annie has been assured through reviews that she is on the track to make partner in M&A in the next year or two at most. Then George comes home one day, in 1990, to tell Annie that he has been offered a two-year job posting in Abu Dhabi which will surely lead to the executive ranks in Development.

Annie considers this, talks to friends, family, and colleagues, and is reassured that a two-year break, after which they will return to DC, should not postpone her partnership opportunities too much -- besides it is a good time to start the family they had always planned.

Two years in the UAE turns into three which is then unexpectedly (but why derail George's momentum now?) followed by three years in Nigeria, and now the family has two children - a boy and a girl - both under the age of six. It is now 1996, and George turns down another promotion opportunity in Papua New Guinea to finally return to DC. On the eve of their return, though, another company - Exxon - with whom George has worked, offers him a deputy vice-president position in Development, which pays much more, but is in Houston. George and Annie decide to move to Houston, where two children soon become three.

Three years later, in 1999, Exxon and Mobil merge, and George is recalled to Virginia, where his star continues to rise. Annie takes care of the logistics of their move, and as she thinks about where the family should live and where the children will go to school, she contemplates a return to work. Full-time, partnership at Skadden is not eventually out of the question as they want her back, but will be difficult to attain in the near-future as she has not done any M&A work - or indeed any legal work - for the past nine years. Annie settles the family in McLean, gets the two older children into Sidwell, and stays home with the two-year old as she works on hiring a nanny and finding a job.

In 2000, Annie finds in-house work at a relatively new corporation, Capital One, which conveniently is located near their home. However, that first year back at work is not easy, one nanny leaves and then another, and their little girl is having constant infections, ear, sinuses, pneumonia, which require constant doctors appointments. George, obviously, cannot or does not want to take the time off of work for these, and in any case he is constantly traveling internationally.

Annie finds it increasingly stressful to maintain her legal schedule responsibly at a company that is growing by leaps and bounds while having to pick up the older children from afterschool programs at 6:00 p.m. (when the nanny is making dinner) and take time from her schedule for school meetings, doctor's appointments. However, with the help of an accommodating employer and later a part time schedule, she manages to balance everything for the next year-and-a-half.

In late 2001 George is sent to London, and the family follows. More relocation, more finding schools, more transfers in an increasingly tense world. Every time Annie is left to contemplate and coordinate the logistics, help execute the seamless transfer and adjust the children to a great new life in their next stop.

It is now 2014, the three children are off and well at Stanford and Virginia Tech as they launch their own careers, and the youngest daughter is about to start at Yale. George is now Vice President at another global oil company and extremely well-situated and compensated.

In truth, Annie and George have been growing apart for some time now, and she is ready to return to the States and assume to semblance of a more-normal life closer to the children. George needs to remain abroad for his career, and they amicably decide to divorce at this point after a long, and relatively good marriage.

George any Annie have been married 33 years, since 1981. She has been out of legal practice, except for her brief, year-and-a-half long stint at Capital One, back in 2000-2001, for almost twenty-four years.

Annie is now a 60-year old, unemployed attorney. George is now a senior vice president of an international oil company earning upwards of $5 million/year. If she takes the next 33 years to try to build up her career, as Goerge took to build up his, she will be almost 90 before she reaches her full earning potential, and that is clearly not going to happen at her age for many reasons.

I hope that this completely fabricated example helps to illustrate why a spouse is often compensated for a lifetime career loss.

No, this illustrates that, despite all her legal education, Annie forgot to protect herself. If she wanted to quit her job and count on his security, she should have made him sign a post-nup. Over and over again, she made the decision to curtail her carreer. It was her choice, and she made it poorly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees.

In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony.

As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony.

Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money.

It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale.

In the example above, Annie was not spending her days at the spa, gym, and country club. She was spending her days taking care of a household and family that was moving regularly around the world so that her spouse could pursue every possible career opportunity, while his and her children also adjusted and thrived with every step, not an easy thing to do. If she had not been so engaged, and required to move around, she would have presumably built a successful law practice like her good friend and former-colleague Meryl. In cases like these, including much less extreme examples of career sacrifice and moves, the career-sacrificing spouse is awarded very healthy, long-term alimony. And in many cases, the very wealthy, high-income ex-spouse does not begrudge them the alimony because they recognize their ex-spouse's sacrifice and contribution to the family, the children's, and indeed their success.

I am sorry if that was not your experience, or perhaps you are the type that begrudges an at-home spouse for ultimately getting paid more for his or her in-home work than you are paid for your out-of-the-home work?

Once the kids are a certain age this is just not true (unless she homeschools). The kids are in school and "run the household" is just lame. Stop making this some telenovela. Some men are nice and give their wives more money than they should. That is fine. But the fact is that she made her decision and she needs to live with it. She could have made other decision if money was her first concern, as it usually is for men.

I am sorry that you feel you need to be paid to care for your own children... that is truly bizarre. You should feel blessed that you got to live off the dole for so long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees.

In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony.

As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony.

Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money[b].

It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale.

Note that he may not have made the choice of money if he felt that there was any negative consequence to the children and family - as in a detrimental impact to the children (after all he is a good father and not a callous man). George made those career choices precisely because he knew that he could have his fresh cake and eat it too, i.e., he calculated correctly - thanks to Annie's hard work on behalf of the family and commitment to him - that the could pursue every possible career-enhancing opportunity, and the children and family would still not only be fine, but continue to thrive. Someone had to make that possible for the family and children so that his calculation would work out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees.

In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony.

As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony.

Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money.

It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale.

In the example above, Annie was not spending her days at the spa, gym, and country club. She was spending her days taking care of a household and family that was moving regularly around the world so that her spouse could pursue every possible career opportunity, while his and her children also adjusted and thrived with every step, not an easy thing to do. If she had not been so engaged, and required to move around, she would have presumably built a successful law practice like her good friend and former-colleague Meryl. In cases like these, including much less extreme examples of career sacrifice and moves, the career-sacrificing spouse is awarded very healthy, long-term alimony. And in many cases, the very wealthy, high-income ex-spouse does not begrudge them the alimony because they recognize their ex-spouse's sacrifice and contribution to the family, the children's, and indeed their success.

I am sorry if that was not your experience, or perhaps you are the type that begrudges an at-home spouse for ultimately getting paid more for his or her in-home work than you are paid for your out-of-the-home work?

Once the kids are a certain age this is just not true (unless she homeschools). The kids are in school and "run the household" is just lame. Stop making this some telenovela. Some men are nice and give their wives more money than they should. That is fine. But the fact is that she made her decision and she needs to live with it. She could have made other decision if money was her first concern, as it usually is for men.

I am sorry that you feel you need to be paid to care for your own children... that is truly bizarre. You should feel blessed that you got to live off the dole for so long.

My mother worked for the State Department (or as I suspect, perhaps one of the three-letter agencies) when I was growing up. We lived literally on every continent except one, and though my father was a professor (or was he?), he found it very difficult to find work abroad at every new posting with the understanding that he would be gone in another year or two at most. In any case, he never found or established the continuity of work necessary to advance most successful careers. Some of the places we lived were quite risky, and I am personally glad that my sister and I had one parent able to devote their time to our adjustment and development.

So in my case, I would say the "at-home" work did not end when we were at school, and in fact became more complicated in some cases my dad had to drive us long-distances to the nearest international or American schools, and even longer distances to places for the musical training both my sister and I engaged in at a high level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The story of George and Annie (totally fictional).

George is a Vienna boy who attends Virginia Tech, where he earns his BS, MS and PhD in ChE. Annie is a San Francisco girl who earns in BA in Philosophy at Yale. They both meet at Harvard, while she is earning her JD and he is earning his MBA.

After Harvard, she clerks on the Fourth Circuit and he begins his career for Mobil. She goes on to join him in the DC area a year later, in 1981, where she is clerking on the Supreme Court. They get married the summer after her clerkship, and she begins work that fall for Skadden in the practice area of Mergers and Acquisitions.

They spend the next nine years enjoying life as a high-earning, no-children, career-focused, fun-loving couple. Annie's and George's career are going very well, and they travel all over the world as vacations permit. In her ninth year at the law firm now, Annie has been assured through reviews that she is on the track to make partner in M&A in the next year or two at most. Then George comes home one day, in 1990, to tell Annie that he has been offered a two-year job posting in Abu Dhabi which will surely lead to the executive ranks in Development.

Annie considers this, talks to friends, family, and colleagues, and is reassured that a two-year break, after which they will return to DC, should not postpone her partnership opportunities too much -- besides it is a good time to start the family they had always planned.

Two years in the UAE turns into three which is then unexpectedly (but why derail George's momentum now?) followed by three years in Nigeria, and now the family has two children - a boy and a girl - both under the age of six. It is now 1996, and George turns down another promotion opportunity in Papua New Guinea to finally return to DC. On the eve of their return, though, another company - Exxon - with whom George has worked, offers him a deputy vice-president position in Development, which pays much more, but is in Houston. George and Annie decide to move to Houston, where two children soon become three.

Three years later, in 1999, Exxon and Mobil merge, and George is recalled to Virginia, where his star continues to rise. Annie takes care of the logistics of their move, and as she thinks about where the family should live and where the children will go to school, she contemplates a return to work. Full-time, partnership at Skadden is not eventually out of the question as they want her back, but will be difficult to attain in the near-future as she has not done any M&A work - or indeed any legal work - for the past nine years. Annie settles the family in McLean, gets the two older children into Sidwell, and stays home with the two-year old as she works on hiring a nanny and finding a job.

In 2000, Annie finds in-house work at a relatively new corporation, Capital One, which conveniently is located near their home. However, that first year back at work is not easy, one nanny leaves and then another, and their little girl is having constant infections, ear, sinuses, pneumonia, which require constant doctors appointments. George, obviously, cannot or does not want to take the time off of work for these, and in any case he is constantly traveling internationally.

Annie finds it increasingly stressful to maintain her legal schedule responsibly at a company that is growing by leaps and bounds while having to pick up the older children from afterschool programs at 6:00 p.m. (when the nanny is making dinner) and take time from her schedule for school meetings, doctor's appointments. However, with the help of an accommodating employer and later a part time schedule, she manages to balance everything for the next year-and-a-half.

In late 2001 George is sent to London, and the family follows. More relocation, more finding schools, more transfers in an increasingly tense world. Every time Annie is left to contemplate and coordinate the logistics, help execute the seamless transfer and adjust the children to a great new life in their next stop.

It is now 2014, the three children are off and well at Stanford and Virginia Tech as they launch their own careers, and the youngest daughter is about to start at Yale. George is now Vice President at another global oil company and extremely well-situated and compensated.

In truth, Annie and George have been growing apart for some time now, and she is ready to return to the States and assume to semblance of a more-normal life closer to the children. George needs to remain abroad for his career, and they amicably decide to divorce at this point after a long, and relatively good marriage.

George any Annie have been married 33 years, since 1981. She has been out of legal practice, except for her brief, year-and-a-half long stint at Capital One, back in 2000-2001, for almost twenty-four years.

Annie is now a 60-year old, unemployed attorney. George is now a senior vice president of an international oil company earning upwards of $5 million/year. If she takes the next 33 years to try to build up her career, as Goerge took to build up his, she will be almost 90 before she reaches her full earning potential, and that is clearly not going to happen at her age for many reasons.

I hope that this completely fabricated example helps to illustrate why a spouse is often compensated for a lifetime career loss.

Annie made all these decisions. She had many points at which she could decide to go back to work. She had an option at every stage of the game, and she shouidl have known to protect herself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees.

In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony.

As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony.

Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money[b].

It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale.

Note that he may not have made the choice of money if he felt that there was any negative consequence to the children and family - as in a detrimental impact to the children (after all he is a good father and not a callous man). George made those career choices precisely because he knew that he could have his fresh cake and eat it too, i.e., he calculated correctly - thanks to Annie's hard work on behalf of the family and commitment to him - that the could pursue every possible career-enhancing opportunity, and the children and family would still not only be fine, but continue to thrive. Someone had to make that possible for the family and children so that his calculation would work out.

Actually, I know many men that would say THEY sacrificed their time with their children and health so the family could go to the best school, belong to country clubs, have the best sports trainers, SAT tutors and the mother could be home with the kids ALL DAY LONG. He is done with having everybody live off the dole and is ready for everybody to do their fair share.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees.

In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony.

As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony.

Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money.

It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale.

In the example above, Annie was not spending her days at the spa, gym, and country club. She was spending her days taking care of a household and family that was moving regularly around the world so that her spouse could pursue every possible career opportunity, while his and her children also adjusted and thrived with every step, not an easy thing to do. If she had not been so engaged, and required to move around, she would have presumably built a successful law practice like her good friend and former-colleague Meryl. In cases like these, including much less extreme examples of career sacrifice and moves, the career-sacrificing spouse is awarded very healthy, long-term alimony. And in many cases, the very wealthy, high-income ex-spouse does not begrudge them the alimony because they recognize their ex-spouse's sacrifice and contribution to the family, the children's, and indeed their success.

I am sorry if that was not your experience, or perhaps you are the type that begrudges an at-home spouse for ultimately getting paid more for his or her in-home work than you are paid for your out-of-the-home work?

Once the kids are a certain age this is just not true (unless she homeschools). The kids are in school and "run the household" is just lame. Stop making this some telenovela. Some men are nice and give their wives more money than they should. That is fine. But the fact is that she made her decision and she needs to live with it. She could have made other decision if money was her first concern, as it usually is for men.

I am sorry that you feel you need to be paid to care for your own children... that is truly bizarre. You should feel blessed that you got to live off the dole for so long.

My mother worked for the State Department (or as I suspect, perhaps one of the three-letter agencies) when I was growing up. We lived literally on every continent except one, and though my father was a professor (or was he?), he found it very difficult to find work abroad at every new posting with the understanding that he would be gone in another year or two at most. In any case, he never found or established the continuity of work necessary to advance most successful careers. Some of the places we lived were quite risky, and I am personally glad that my sister and I had one parent able to devote their time to our adjustment and development.

So in my case, I would say the "at-home" work did not end when we were at school, and in fact became more complicated in some cases my dad had to drive us long-distances to the nearest international or American schools, and even longer distances to places for the musical training both my sister and I engaged in at a high level.

My friend works for the CIA.... we can say it... DHS is not going to bust us... and his wife STAYED IN THE STATES AND CONTINUED HER CAREER. If he decides to work for the CIA and travel all over the world that is his choice, she in the meantime is a very successful lawyer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The story of George and Annie (totally fictional).

George is a Vienna boy who attends Virginia Tech, where he earns his BS, MS and PhD in ChE. Annie is a San Francisco girl who earns in BA in Philosophy at Yale. They both meet at Harvard, while she is earning her JD and he is earning his MBA.

After Harvard, she clerks on the Fourth Circuit and he begins his career for Mobil. She goes on to join him in the DC area a year later, in 1981, where she is clerking on the Supreme Court. They get married the summer after her clerkship, and she begins work that fall for Skadden in the practice area of Mergers and Acquisitions.

They spend the next nine years enjoying life as a high-earning, no-children, career-focused, fun-loving couple. Annie's and George's career are going very well, and they travel all over the world as vacations permit. In her ninth year at the law firm now, Annie has been assured through reviews that she is on the track to make partner in M&A in the next year or two at most. Then George comes home one day, in 1990, to tell Annie that he has been offered a two-year job posting in Abu Dhabi which will surely lead to the executive ranks in Development.

Annie considers this, talks to friends, family, and colleagues, and is reassured that a two-year break, after which they will return to DC, should not postpone her partnership opportunities too much -- besides it is a good time to start the family they had always planned.

Two years in the UAE turns into three which is then unexpectedly (but why derail George's momentum now?) followed by three years in Nigeria, and now the family has two children - a boy and a girl - both under the age of six. It is now 1996, and George turns down another promotion opportunity in Papua New Guinea to finally return to DC. On the eve of their return, though, another company - Exxon - with whom George has worked, offers him a deputy vice-president position in Development, which pays much more, but is in Houston. George and Annie decide to move to Houston, where two children soon become three.

Three years later, in 1999, Exxon and Mobil merge, and George is recalled to Virginia, where his star continues to rise. Annie takes care of the logistics of their move, and as she thinks about where the family should live and where the children will go to school, she contemplates a return to work. Full-time, partnership at Skadden is not eventually out of the question as they want her back, but will be difficult to attain in the near-future as she has not done any M&A work - or indeed any legal work - for the past nine years. Annie settles the family in McLean, gets the two older children into Sidwell, and stays home with the two-year old as she works on hiring a nanny and finding a job.

In 2000, Annie finds in-house work at a relatively new corporation, Capital One, which conveniently is located near their home. However, that first year back at work is not easy, one nanny leaves and then another, and their little girl is having constant infections, ear, sinuses, pneumonia, which require constant doctors appointments. George, obviously, cannot or does not want to take the time off of work for these, and in any case he is constantly traveling internationally.

Annie finds it increasingly stressful to maintain her legal schedule responsibly at a company that is growing by leaps and bounds while having to pick up the older children from afterschool programs at 6:00 p.m. (when the nanny is making dinner) and take time from her schedule for school meetings, doctor's appointments. However, with the help of an accommodating employer and later a part time schedule, she manages to balance everything for the next year-and-a-half.

In late 2001 George is sent to London, and the family follows. More relocation, more finding schools, more transfers in an increasingly tense world. Every time Annie is left to contemplate and coordinate the logistics, help execute the seamless transfer and adjust the children to a great new life in their next stop.

It is now 2014, the three children are off and well at Stanford and Virginia Tech as they launch their own careers, and the youngest daughter is about to start at Yale. George is now Vice President at another global oil company and extremely well-situated and compensated.

In truth, Annie and George have been growing apart for some time now, and she is ready to return to the States and assume to semblance of a more-normal life closer to the children. George needs to remain abroad for his career, and they amicably decide to divorce at this point after a long, and relatively good marriage.

George any Annie have been married 33 years, since 1981. She has been out of legal practice, except for her brief, year-and-a-half long stint at Capital One, back in 2000-2001, for almost twenty-four years.

Annie is now a 60-year old, unemployed attorney. George is now a senior vice president of an international oil company earning upwards of $5 million/year. If she takes the next 33 years to try to build up her career, as Goerge took to build up his, she will be almost 90 before she reaches her full earning potential, and that is clearly not going to happen at her age for many reasons.

I hope that this completely fabricated example helps to illustrate why a spouse is often compensated for a lifetime career loss.

Annie made all these decisions. She had many points at which she could decide to go back to work. She had an option at every stage of the game, and she shouidl have known to protect herself.

That's not exactly how normal people in functioning marriages think. Yes, it's smart to try to protect your own earning potential to the extent you can, but generally married couples make decisions together about what is best for the family. Once George's career took off, it seems that following it to the detriment of Annie's was the decision they mutually decided was best for the family (and those looming college tuitions). It would have been nice if later on they had mutually decided to stay married and move back to VA together, but they didn't. It's not good public policy to leave Annie with the short stick when the time comes that they just can't make mutual decisions anymore and decide to divorce, just because George has the power to control the draw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees.

In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony.

As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony.

Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money.

It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale.

In the example above, Annie was not spending her days at the spa, gym, and country club. She was spending her days taking care of a household and family that was moving regularly around the world so that her spouse could pursue every possible career opportunity, while his and her children also adjusted and thrived with every step, not an easy thing to do. If she had not been so engaged, and required to move around, she would have presumably built a successful law practice like her good friend and former-colleague Meryl. In cases like these, including much less extreme examples of career sacrifice and moves, the career-sacrificing spouse is awarded very healthy, long-term alimony. And in many cases, the very wealthy, high-income ex-spouse does not begrudge them the alimony because they recognize their ex-spouse's sacrifice and contribution to the family, the children's, and indeed their success.

I am sorry if that was not your experience, or perhaps you are the type that begrudges an at-home spouse for ultimately getting paid more for his or her in-home work than you are paid for your out-of-the-home work?

Once the kids are a certain age this is just not true (unless she homeschools). The kids are in school and "run the household" is just lame. Stop making this some telenovela. Some men are nice and give their wives more money than they should. That is fine. But the fact is that she made her decision and she needs to live with it. She could have made other decision if money was her first concern, as it usually is for men.

I am sorry that you feel you need to be paid to care for your own children... that is truly bizarre. You should feel blessed that you got to live off the dole for so long.

My good childhood friend was in a marriage which involved sacrifices not-quite as extreme as the one in the example. She owns a home, completely paid off, in Malibu that must be worth more than $10 million easily. Her ex-husband continues to pay her alimony, fifteen years after their divorce, of $75,000/month. He pays all of the property taxes, buys her a new car every three year, and pays for all of the children's expenses including all of their college, law school, and medical school. I think some of us here just cannot understand that there are people out there who are wealthy enough, and yes, nice-enough human beings, to recognize their ex-spouse's contributions to their success and compensate them accordingly. In her case, her ex-husband tells us all that he saw her as he would have a business partner, without whom his business, career, and extreme monetary success would never have been possible. He is in complete awe of the way she raised all five of their children to be great successes in their own right, even if he did predictably move on the a much-younger and blonder trophy wife. Her ex is from another country and culture, though, which values traditional women's roles much more, so perhaps that explains his generous attitude.

I any case, I do not resent her wonderful life even if I have had to work every day of my life, while raising children, just to afford a modest colonial in Springfield. Different people get compensated differently for the same work based on luck, location, circumstances, etc., and I cannot spend my life worrying that others are not equal to me or vice-versa. Besides my friend has been there for me always loyal, kind, generous, even though our financial situations are much different. I love spending time with her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees.

In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony.

As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony.

Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money.

It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale.

In the example above, Annie was not spending her days at the spa, gym, and country club. She was spending her days taking care of a household and family that was moving regularly around the world so that her spouse could pursue every possible career opportunity, while his and her children also adjusted and thrived with every step, not an easy thing to do. If she had not been so engaged, and required to move around, she would have presumably built a successful law practice like her good friend and former-colleague Meryl. In cases like these, including much less extreme examples of career sacrifice and moves, the career-sacrificing spouse is awarded very healthy, long-term alimony. And in many cases, the very wealthy, high-income ex-spouse does not begrudge them the alimony because they recognize their ex-spouse's sacrifice and contribution to the family, the children's, and indeed their success.

I am sorry if that was not your experience, or perhaps you are the type that begrudges an at-home spouse for ultimately getting paid more for his or her in-home work than you are paid for your out-of-the-home work?

Once the kids are a certain age this is just not true (unless she homeschools). The kids are in school and "run the household" is just lame. Stop making this some telenovela. Some men are nice and give their wives more money than they should. That is fine. But the fact is that she made her decision and she needs to live with it. She could have made other decision if money was her first concern, as it usually is for men.

I am sorry that you feel you need to be paid to care for your own children... that is truly bizarre. You should feel blessed that you got to live off the dole for so long.

My mother worked for the State Department (or as I suspect, perhaps one of the three-letter agencies) when I was growing up. We lived literally on every continent except one, and though my father was a professor (or was he?), he found it very difficult to find work abroad at every new posting with the understanding that he would be gone in another year or two at most. In any case, he never found or established the continuity of work necessary to advance most successful careers. Some of the places we lived were quite risky, and I am personally glad that my sister and I had one parent able to devote their time to our adjustment and development.

So in my case, I would say the "at-home" work did not end when we were at school, and in fact became more complicated in some cases my dad had to drive us long-distances to the nearest international or American schools, and even longer distances to places for the musical training both my sister and I engaged in at a high level.

My friend works for the CIA.... we can say it... DHS is not going to bust us... and his wife STAYED IN THE STATES AND CONTINUED HER CAREER. If he decides to work for the CIA and travel all over the world that is his choice, she in the meantime is a very successful lawyer.

How may children do they have? Or don't they have any yet? If the latter, then yes, I can see how this mutually-beneficial arrangement is sustainable in the long-run. "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The story of George and Annie (totally fictional).

George is a Vienna boy who attends Virginia Tech, where he earns his BS, MS and PhD in ChE. Annie is a San Francisco girl who earns in BA in Philosophy at Yale. They both meet at Harvard, while she is earning her JD and he is earning his MBA.

After Harvard, she clerks on the Fourth Circuit and he begins his career for Mobil. She goes on to join him in the DC area a year later, in 1981, where she is clerking on the Supreme Court. They get married the summer after her clerkship, and she begins work that fall for Skadden in the practice area of Mergers and Acquisitions.

They spend the next nine years enjoying life as a high-earning, no-children, career-focused, fun-loving couple. Annie's and George's career are going very well, and they travel all over the world as vacations permit. In her ninth year at the law firm now, Annie has been assured through reviews that she is on the track to make partner in M&A in the next year or two at most. Then George comes home one day, in 1990, to tell Annie that he has been offered a two-year job posting in Abu Dhabi which will surely lead to the executive ranks in Development.

Annie considers this, talks to friends, family, and colleagues, and is reassured that a two-year break, after which they will return to DC, should not postpone her partnership opportunities too much -- besides it is a good time to start the family they had always planned.

Two years in the UAE turns into three which is then unexpectedly (but why derail George's momentum now?) followed by three years in Nigeria, and now the family has two children - a boy and a girl - both under the age of six. It is now 1996, and George turns down another promotion opportunity in Papua New Guinea to finally return to DC. On the eve of their return, though, another company - Exxon - with whom George has worked, offers him a deputy vice-president position in Development, which pays much more, but is in Houston. George and Annie decide to move to Houston, where two children soon become three.

Three years later, in 1999, Exxon and Mobil merge, and George is recalled to Virginia, where his star continues to rise. Annie takes care of the logistics of their move, and as she thinks about where the family should live and where the children will go to school, she contemplates a return to work. Full-time, partnership at Skadden is not eventually out of the question as they want her back, but will be difficult to attain in the near-future as she has not done any M&A work - or indeed any legal work - for the past nine years. Annie settles the family in McLean, gets the two older children into Sidwell, and stays home with the two-year old as she works on hiring a nanny and finding a job.

In 2000, Annie finds in-house work at a relatively new corporation, Capital One, which conveniently is located near their home. However, that first year back at work is not easy, one nanny leaves and then another, and their little girl is having constant infections, ear, sinuses, pneumonia, which require constant doctors appointments. George, obviously, cannot or does not want to take the time off of work for these, and in any case he is constantly traveling internationally.

Annie finds it increasingly stressful to maintain her legal schedule responsibly at a company that is growing by leaps and bounds while having to pick up the older children from afterschool programs at 6:00 p.m. (when the nanny is making dinner) and take time from her schedule for school meetings, doctor's appointments. However, with the help of an accommodating employer and later a part time schedule, she manages to balance everything for the next year-and-a-half.

In late 2001 George is sent to London, and the family follows. More relocation, more finding schools, more transfers in an increasingly tense world. Every time Annie is left to contemplate and coordinate the logistics, help execute the seamless transfer and adjust the children to a great new life in their next stop.

It is now 2014, the three children are off and well at Stanford and Virginia Tech as they launch their own careers, and the youngest daughter is about to start at Yale. George is now Vice President at another global oil company and extremely well-situated and compensated.

In truth, Annie and George have been growing apart for some time now, and she is ready to return to the States and assume to semblance of a more-normal life closer to the children. George needs to remain abroad for his career, and they amicably decide to divorce at this point after a long, and relatively good marriage.

George any Annie have been married 33 years, since 1981. She has been out of legal practice, except for her brief, year-and-a-half long stint at Capital One, back in 2000-2001, for almost twenty-four years.

Annie is now a 60-year old, unemployed attorney. George is now a senior vice president of an international oil company earning upwards of $5 million/year. If she takes the next 33 years to try to build up her career, as Goerge took to build up his, she will be almost 90 before she reaches her full earning potential, and that is clearly not going to happen at her age for many reasons.

I hope that this completely fabricated example helps to illustrate why a spouse is often compensated for a lifetime career loss.

No, this illustrates that, despite all her legal education, Annie forgot to protect herself. If she wanted to quit her job and count on his security, she should have made him sign a post-nup. Over and over again, she made the decision to curtail her carreer. It was her choice, and she made it poorly.

+1 - She should get her half of the assets and the retirement accounts. And perhaps due to her age should be awarded some spousal support. But I'd say that Annie, as a lawyer, should have known better than anyone that she needed to protect herself better than she did.

And maybe further back, when Annie was still younger and sensed her marriage falling apart, she should have begun planning for what she was going to do if this marriage ended.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees.

In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony.

As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony.

Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money[b].

It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale.

Note that he may not have made the choice of money if he felt that there was any negative consequence to the children and family - as in a detrimental impact to the children (after all he is a good father and not a callous man). George made those career choices precisely because he knew that he could have his fresh cake and eat it too, i.e., he calculated correctly - thanks to Annie's hard work on behalf of the family and commitment to him - that the could pursue every possible career-enhancing opportunity, and the children and family would still not only be fine, but continue to thrive. Someone had to make that possible for the family and children so that his calculation would work out.

And Annie married a guy whose job let her live all over the world, extremely luxuriously, and have three kids who could go to private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The story of George and Annie (totally fictional).

George is a Vienna boy who attends Virginia Tech, where he earns his BS, MS and PhD in ChE. Annie is a San Francisco girl who earns in BA in Philosophy at Yale. They both meet at Harvard, while she is earning her JD and he is earning his MBA.

After Harvard, she clerks on the Fourth Circuit and he begins his career for Mobil. She goes on to join him in the DC area a year later, in 1981, where she is clerking on the Supreme Court. They get married the summer after her clerkship, and she begins work that fall for Skadden in the practice area of Mergers and Acquisitions.

They spend the next nine years enjoying life as a high-earning, no-children, career-focused, fun-loving couple. Annie's and George's career are going very well, and they travel all over the world as vacations permit. In her ninth year at the law firm now, Annie has been assured through reviews that she is on the track to make partner in M&A in the next year or two at most. Then George comes home one day, in 1990, to tell Annie that he has been offered a two-year job posting in Abu Dhabi which will surely lead to the executive ranks in Development.

Annie considers this, talks to friends, family, and colleagues, and is reassured that a two-year break, after which they will return to DC, should not postpone her partnership opportunities too much -- besides it is a good time to start the family they had always planned.

Two years in the UAE turns into three which is then unexpectedly (but why derail George's momentum now?) followed by three years in Nigeria, and now the family has two children - a boy and a girl - both under the age of six. It is now 1996, and George turns down another promotion opportunity in Papua New Guinea to finally return to DC. On the eve of their return, though, another company - Exxon - with whom George has worked, offers him a deputy vice-president position in Development, which pays much more, but is in Houston. George and Annie decide to move to Houston, where two children soon become three.

Three years later, in 1999, Exxon and Mobil merge, and George is recalled to Virginia, where his star continues to rise. Annie takes care of the logistics of their move, and as she thinks about where the family should live and where the children will go to school, she contemplates a return to work. Full-time, partnership at Skadden is not eventually out of the question as they want her back, but will be difficult to attain in the near-future as she has not done any M&A work - or indeed any legal work - for the past nine years. Annie settles the family in McLean, gets the two older children into Sidwell, and stays home with the two-year old as she works on hiring a nanny and finding a job.

In 2000, Annie finds in-house work at a relatively new corporation, Capital One, which conveniently is located near their home. However, that first year back at work is not easy, one nanny leaves and then another, and their little girl is having constant infections, ear, sinuses, pneumonia, which require constant doctors appointments. George, obviously, cannot or does not want to take the time off of work for these, and in any case he is constantly traveling internationally.

Annie finds it increasingly stressful to maintain her legal schedule responsibly at a company that is growing by leaps and bounds while having to pick up the older children from afterschool programs at 6:00 p.m. (when the nanny is making dinner) and take time from her schedule for school meetings, doctor's appointments. However, with the help of an accommodating employer and later a part time schedule, she manages to balance everything for the next year-and-a-half.

In late 2001 George is sent to London, and the family follows. More relocation, more finding schools, more transfers in an increasingly tense world. Every time Annie is left to contemplate and coordinate the logistics, help execute the seamless transfer and adjust the children to a great new life in their next stop.

It is now 2014, the three children are off and well at Stanford and Virginia Tech as they launch their own careers, and the youngest daughter is about to start at Yale. George is now Vice President at another global oil company and extremely well-situated and compensated.

In truth, Annie and George have been growing apart for some time now, and she is ready to return to the States and assume to semblance of a more-normal life closer to the children. George needs to remain abroad for his career, and they amicably decide to divorce at this point after a long, and relatively good marriage.

George any Annie have been married 33 years, since 1981. She has been out of legal practice, except for her brief, year-and-a-half long stint at Capital One, back in 2000-2001, for almost twenty-four years.

Annie is now a 60-year old, unemployed attorney. George is now a senior vice president of an international oil company earning upwards of $5 million/year. If she takes the next 33 years to try to build up her career, as Goerge took to build up his, she will be almost 90 before she reaches her full earning potential, and that is clearly not going to happen at her age for many reasons.

I hope that this completely fabricated example helps to illustrate why a spouse is often compensated for a lifetime career loss.

No, this illustrates that, despite all her legal education, Annie forgot to protect herself. If she wanted to quit her job and count on his security, she should have made him sign a post-nup. Over and over again, she made the decision to curtail her carreer. It was her choice, and she made it poorly.

+1 - She should get her half of the assets and the retirement accounts. And perhaps due to her age should be awarded some spousal support. But I'd say that Annie, as a lawyer, should have known better than anyone that she needed to protect herself better than she did.

And maybe further back, when Annie was still younger and sensed her marriage falling apart, she should have begun planning for what she was going to do if this marriage ended.

Agreed. And at her age, near retirement for many, and his extremely good income, that should be some very generous spousal support. I see at least $1MM per year for the next ten to fifteen years, or until he retires.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees.

In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony.

As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony.

Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money.

It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale.

In the example above, Annie was not spending her days at the spa, gym, and country club. She was spending her days taking care of a household and family that was moving regularly around the world so that her spouse could pursue every possible career opportunity, while his and her children also adjusted and thrived with every step, not an easy thing to do. If she had not been so engaged, and required to move around, she would have presumably built a successful law practice like her good friend and former-colleague Meryl. In cases like these, including much less extreme examples of career sacrifice and moves, the career-sacrificing spouse is awarded very healthy, long-term alimony. And in many cases, the very wealthy, high-income ex-spouse does not begrudge them the alimony because they recognize their ex-spouse's sacrifice and contribution to the family, the children's, and indeed their success.

I am sorry if that was not your experience, or perhaps you are the type that begrudges an at-home spouse for ultimately getting paid more for his or her in-home work than you are paid for your out-of-the-home work?

Once the kids are a certain age this is just not true (unless she homeschools). The kids are in school and "run the household" is just lame. Stop making this some telenovela. Some men are nice and give their wives more money than they should. That is fine. But the fact is that she made her decision and she needs to live with it. She could have made other decision if money was her first concern, as it usually is for men.

I am sorry that you feel you need to be paid to care for your own children... that is truly bizarre. You should feel blessed that you got to live off the dole for so long.

My good childhood friend was in a marriage which involved sacrifices not-quite as extreme as the one in the example. She owns a home, completely paid off, in Malibu that must be worth more than $10 million easily. Her ex-husband continues to pay her alimony, fifteen years after their divorce, of $75,000/month. He pays all of the property taxes, buys her a new car every three year, and pays for all of the children's expenses including all of their college, law school, and medical school. I think some of us here just cannot understand that there are people out there who are wealthy enough, and yes, nice-enough human beings, to recognize their ex-spouse's contributions to their success and compensate them accordingly. In her case, her ex-husband tells us all that he saw her as he would have a business partner, without whom his business, career, and extreme monetary success would never have been possible. He is in complete awe of the way she raised all five of their children to be great successes in their own right, even if he did predictably move on the a much-younger and blonder trophy wife. Her ex is from another country and culture, though, which values traditional women's roles much more, so perhaps that explains his generous attitude.

I any case, I do not resent her wonderful life even if I have had to work every day of my life, while raising children, just to afford a modest colonial in Springfield. Different people get compensated differently for the same work based on luck, location, circumstances, etc., and I cannot spend my life worrying that others are not equal to me or vice-versa. Besides my friend has been there for me always loyal, kind, generous, even though our financial situations are much different. I love spending time with her.

Some men will pay for somebody to go away quietly, this is true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you feel that you are owed a $100k living? The average salary in this country is less than half that -- for people who work full-time. Most people will work all of their lives and never make close to that, including people with college degrees.

In the example above, I would offer that Annie's closest colleague at the firm, also a woman and also her year, did stay to make partner in the Mergers and Acquisitions practice and is now, at age 60, earning more than $2 million/year. Annie would feel, rightly, that she gave up a future earning $2 million/year, so that George could pursue his future potential (successfully) earning $5 million/year. That is why she would feel that she is owed a very generous alimony.

As you yourself point out, most people in the U.S. make nowhere near that amount, and would thus not expect, or indeed be awarded, that particularly generous alimony.

Still... people don't think spending your days in the spa, gym and country club is a huge sacrifice. She made her choice... family. He made his choice ... money[b].

It's a bummer... but there are decisions and consequences. Most people want their cake... but the cake is either eaten or stale.

Note that he may not have made the choice of money if he felt that there was any negative consequence to the children and family - as in a detrimental impact to the children (after all he is a good father and not a callous man). George made those career choices precisely because he knew that he could have his fresh cake and eat it too, i.e., he calculated correctly - thanks to Annie's hard work on behalf of the family and commitment to him - that the could pursue every possible career-enhancing opportunity, and the children and family would still not only be fine, but continue to thrive. Someone had to make that possible for the family and children so that his calculation would work out.

And Annie married a guy whose job let her live all over the world, extremely luxuriously, and have three kids who could go to private school.

This is hard for people on the thread to understand, obviously, but just as the 1% live better and differently than most of us on a day-to-day basis, so they often divorce and come out of it differently than most of us.

I lived in a small, Springfield colonial watching pennies when my good friend was living the Malibu high-life while married. I still live in my small, though now renovated, colonial but I don't count pennies so much anymore, while my friend continues to live the good life in her divorced years. Get over it, do you always get angry that other people, working or not, married or divorced, have it better than you? I do not, because so many people in this are have it better than me, and if I worried about that constantly, I would be perpetually miserable, whereas I am actually quite happy.