Disruptive kids. Who is at fault the teacher or the kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pretty much the only punishment teachers are allowed to use is taking away recess, and the parents absolutely howl if you do that because “it’s not developmentally appropriate for kids full of energy” so I’d love to know what punishment they’d accept for their darlings. They are terribly disruptive and the parents just excuse it with “they’re social and love talking with their friends” provided that the friends are the right ones from the good neighborhood.

I’m envious of any teacher that is allowed to take away recess.
Even when I started teaching in public school 20 years ago, we weren’t allowed to take away recess
Teachers truly have their hands tied in trying to deal with misbehavior.
It’s for this reason, along with parents like the OP I walked away from teaching without a means of earning a comparable income.

I'm a retired teacher and a mom, and taking away recess as a way to control the classroom is idiotic. Recess is often the one thing that keeps a lot of these kids from misbehaving, especially in the early grades. It's not a reward for good behavior, it's an essential part of the day.

A lot of kids don't even like recess, but they need it.

If you want to use rewards or denial of rewards for classroom management, you have to build it into the structure of your classroom. I've had kids earn things like a Friday treat with a week of good behavior in a specific area. That can be a good way to reinforce rules around a specific activity, like lining up (which is such a PITA with elementary kids).

But taking away what is often their one opportunity during the day to run around and be really, really physical is not going to get you better behavior in the long run. It might get you compliance in the moment (maybe) but in the long run it will get worse. In fact, when I had classes that were more unruly than usual, I'd often look for ways to build in more outdoor time and more physical activity during the day -- I would have them do counting games on the field where they had to run to cones to count by 5s. Or we'd do short neighborhood walks to reinforce science lessons about plants or trees, or to collect observations for writing poems or stories. Getting kids out of their chairs and moving around, even for 10-15 minutes, often means a calmer, more attentive class in the longrun.

That's why teacher's aren't allowed to take away recess. Because it's a dumb practice. It's like a parent trying to control behavior by sending a kid to bed without dinner. They are just going to get hungrier and behave worse!

[Anonymous]

I would say the kids and the parents are usually the problem and it is enhanced automatically when admin reward misbehavior with candy and fire teachers who dont manipulate the data and the grades to keep karents from doing the karen-ing. We are blamed, we are fired, we are low paid, and we are retaliated on regularly. Teaching sucks these days bc the other stake holders are morons. Sorry about the offensive speech but someone needs to say it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When has a student’s behavior ever been the teacher’s fault?

Not the behavior, but the lack of skills to manage the situation. In my experience behavior problems could be easily managed by good teachers.

I’ve been teaching for over 20 years and I have strong classroom management.

Student behavior has changed dramatically. A teacher’s toolkit (the ways we can address behavior) has been greatly diminished by administrative policies.

You can’t compare what we experienced decades ago to a modern classroom.

This is my perception after subbing in my kid's elementary school. Even the most well-seasoned teachers have one hand tied behind their back by the administration. The administration forces them to keep disruptive kids in their classrooms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you want parents and teachers to do better then champion policies that support parents (many teachers are also parents). Our society and government should be supporting care-giving including health-care for all, maternity leave, affordable housing, etc. There is a direct correlation between the financial stress our oligarch driven out-of-control capitalist model is causing working families and behavior. Stop voting for people who essentially tell working families to stop complaining and try harder or worse, tell us to blame others rather than blame the system as its designed or god for bid blame the rich and powerful.

This is the private school subforum. These are the rich and powerful and their angelic children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The parents are to blame for not teaching discipline and manners and following through. Put the blame where it belongs: at home.

While I do think parents need to do more, kids often act different at school than at home. We absolutely would back any punishment a teacher doled out.

My middle child is very difficult at home, but apparently is an angel and even a leader at school. It boggles our mind. The kid that the teacher sees is not necessarily the kid that the parents see.

The bolded, combined with the fact that teachers rarely communicate clearly about kids' behavior in the classroom. We've liked all our kids' teachers, but the way they describe classroom behavior is a mystery. We literally always ask "how is her behavior in class? are there any issues we need to be addressing?" and the teachers will respond with some word salad that simultaneously makes me concerned there is misbehavior but fails to give me any sense of what the problem might be or what I might do.

Like regarding my kid who is really well behaved like 90% of the time but sometimes has random meltdowns when she's hungry, I'll get "Nope, no issues. Not really. Sometimes she gets frustrated. I'm encouraging her to express herself but at appropriate times. But really nothing to worry about." What does that mean? What is happening? I'll follow up and be told "no no no, she's so great, don't worry." My spouse and I have decided that likely there are some issues but because she's mostly great, they don't want to harp on it too much. I also get the sense there are always a few kids in any class who have tons of issues, so our kid who might have some issues looks great by comparison? But it also seems like teachers are loathe to just state directly "this is a problem, yes it would help if you could work on xyz at home." I've never had a teacher tell me something like this directly. It's like they'll obliquely reference an issue but not describe it well and then reassure us it's no big deal. But then why did they bring it up?

So at some point, I'm just like "okay, well let us know if there is anything we should know about." And we get self-reports from the kids of course but who knows how accurate those are. Both our kids complain a lot about school, but most of the complaints are about peers and stuff that sounds really petty to us ("I wanted to play on the swings during recess but Larla wouldn't give up her swing even though I asked really nicely!"). So who knows. Maybe our kids are terrors at school. We do our best.

I don’t know about private schools but my sister is a public school teacher and the degree to which it is not possible for adults in elementary schools to be direct with each other in addressing issues/concerns is mind-blowing. Every single slightly negative statement has to be dressed in a praise sandwich and delivered in the most “could we possibly think about” “would it maybe be possible to…”. It’s not just the kids and parents, it’s like no one can take an ounce of critical feedback even when it’s kind and constructively provided.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s awful. I’m on a group chat for the grade and the moms are constantly complaining about one teacher. “Jackson says she yells all the time and he feels uncomfortable at school. I’ve complained to the principal but nothings getting done. She won’t let him sit with his friends” Jackson is a disruptive little jerk and the teacher is at her wits end!!! Tell your kid to listen to his teacher instead of always taking his side!

This is kind of the point though. How is the parent actually supposed to know what is happening in the classroom? How does she from afar "correct" the kid for conduct she can't see and doesn't know about? Jackson is manipulating mom, or maybe truly feels they way he does and can't see the bigger picture. What is the teacher telling mom?

Jackson’s mom needs to contact the teacher directly instead of gossiping in the chat. Find out what is going on and work with teacher to improve the situation.

More likely Jackson’s mom thinks her kid is just amazing and can do no wrong. Or simply can’t be bothered.

It’s this. He is an only child born to gray hair parents. He walks on water and any teacher who disagrees is obviously unfit.

[Anonymous]

Hahaha it's the parents, folks.

My parents both cared about school and if I got into trouble at school, I would get into a ton of trouble at home, and I knew I could not mess around at school. If I got into trouble at CCD, only my mom would get word about it, and because my parents were deeply at odds over religion, she never said a word to my dad, and I never got into trouble. Guess where I got into tons of trouble?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The parents are to blame for not teaching discipline and manners and following through. Put the blame where it belongs: at home.

While I do think parents need to do more, kids often act different at school than at home. We absolutely would back any punishment a teacher doled out.

My middle child is very difficult at home, but apparently is an angel and even a leader at school. It boggles our mind. The kid that the teacher sees is not necessarily the kid that the parents see.

The bolded, combined with the fact that teachers rarely communicate clearly about kids' behavior in the classroom. We've liked all our kids' teachers, but the way they describe classroom behavior is a mystery. We literally always ask "how is her behavior in class? are there any issues we need to be addressing?" and the teachers will respond with some word salad that simultaneously makes me concerned there is misbehavior but fails to give me any sense of what the problem might be or what I might do.

Like regarding my kid who is really well behaved like 90% of the time but sometimes has random meltdowns when she's hungry, I'll get "Nope, no issues. Not really. Sometimes she gets frustrated. I'm encouraging her to express herself but at appropriate times. But really nothing to worry about." What does that mean? What is happening? I'll follow up and be told "no no no, she's so great, don't worry." My spouse and I have decided that likely there are some issues but because she's mostly great, they don't want to harp on it too much. I also get the sense there are always a few kids in any class who have tons of issues, so our kid who might have some issues looks great by comparison? But it also seems like teachers are loathe to just state directly "this is a problem, yes it would help if you could work on xyz at home." I've never had a teacher tell me something like this directly. It's like they'll obliquely reference an issue but not describe it well and then reassure us it's no big deal. But then why did they bring it up?

So at some point, I'm just like "okay, well let us know if there is anything we should know about." And we get self-reports from the kids of course but who knows how accurate those are. Both our kids complain a lot about school, but most of the complaints are about peers and stuff that sounds really petty to us ("I wanted to play on the swings during recess but Larla wouldn't give up her swing even though I asked really nicely!"). So who knows. Maybe our kids are terrors at school. We do our best.

I don’t know about private schools but my sister is a public school teacher and the degree to which it is not possible for adults in elementary schools to be direct with each other in addressing issues/concerns is mind-blowing. Every single slightly negative statement has to be dressed in a praise sandwich and delivered in the most “could we possibly think about” “would it maybe be possible to…”. It’s not just the kids and parents, it’s like no one can take an ounce of critical feedback even when it’s kind and constructively provided.

I think private school teachers are often discouraged from saying anything negative, especially to parents who are big donors or considered highly desirable members of the school community. There can also be weird dynamics when the parents of a kid are both extremely well educated and successful -- it's intimidating. Private school teachers often have to weigh the likelihood that parents will challenge any negative feedback. It's not always worth it.

Both public and private school teachers are discouraged from being direct, especially about negative issues. If a problem is severe enough, admin might get involved. Though in publics, the admin will also go into CYA mode.

Sometimes parents are the problem, but the lack of clear, actionable feedback to parents on kid's classroom issues is a real problem. Of course parents are apt to defend their children (this is actually positive, kids need advocates) but most parents would be willing to work with a school to address an issue. Most parents don't want to raise problematic people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The parents are to blame for not teaching discipline and manners and following through. Put the blame where it belongs: at home.

While I do think parents need to do more, kids often act different at school than at home. We absolutely would back any punishment a teacher doled out.

My middle child is very difficult at home, but apparently is an angel and even a leader at school. It boggles our mind. The kid that the teacher sees is not necessarily the kid that the parents see.

The bolded, combined with the fact that teachers rarely communicate clearly about kids' behavior in the classroom. We've liked all our kids' teachers, but the way they describe classroom behavior is a mystery. We literally always ask "how is her behavior in class? are there any issues we need to be addressing?" and the teachers will respond with some word salad that simultaneously makes me concerned there is misbehavior but fails to give me any sense of what the problem might be or what I might do.

Like regarding my kid who is really well behaved like 90% of the time but sometimes has random meltdowns when she's hungry, I'll get "Nope, no issues. Not really. Sometimes she gets frustrated. I'm encouraging her to express herself but at appropriate times. But really nothing to worry about." What does that mean? What is happening? I'll follow up and be told "no no no, she's so great, don't worry." My spouse and I have decided that likely there are some issues but because she's mostly great, they don't want to harp on it too much. I also get the sense there are always a few kids in any class who have tons of issues, so our kid who might have some issues looks great by comparison? But it also seems like teachers are loathe to just state directly "this is a problem, yes it would help if you could work on xyz at home." I've never had a teacher tell me something like this directly. It's like they'll obliquely reference an issue but not describe it well and then reassure us it's no big deal. But then why did they bring it up?

So at some point, I'm just like "okay, well let us know if there is anything we should know about." And we get self-reports from the kids of course but who knows how accurate those are. Both our kids complain a lot about school, but most of the complaints are about peers and stuff that sounds really petty to us ("I wanted to play on the swings during recess but Larla wouldn't give up her swing even though I asked really nicely!"). So who knows. Maybe our kids are terrors at school. We do our best.

I don’t know about private schools but my sister is a public school teacher and the degree to which it is not possible for adults in elementary schools to be direct with each other in addressing issues/concerns is mind-blowing. Every single slightly negative statement has to be dressed in a praise sandwich and delivered in the most “could we possibly think about” “would it maybe be possible to…”. It’s not just the kids and parents, it’s like no one can take an ounce of critical feedback even when it’s kind and constructively provided.

I think private school teachers are often discouraged from saying anything negative, especially to parents who are big donors or considered highly desirable members of the school community. There can also be weird dynamics when the parents of a kid are both extremely well educated and successful -- it's intimidating. Private school teachers often have to weigh the likelihood that parents will challenge any negative feedback. It's not always worth it.

Both public and private school teachers are discouraged from being direct, especially about negative issues. If a problem is severe enough, admin might get involved. Though in publics, the admin will also go into CYA mode.

Sometimes parents are the problem, but the lack of clear, actionable feedback to parents on kid's classroom issues is a real problem. Of course parents are apt to defend their children (this is actually positive, kids need advocates) but most parents would be willing to work with a school to address an issue. Most parents don't want to raise problematic people.

Ok how do I low key make it very clear that I'm team teacher and I want to hear all the shit on my kid so I can make sure they aren't the teacher's problem? (I say this as a mom of an almost 3 year old whose kid just told her he hit is friend at school today and then he said sorry and hugged... and then he changed the story to he got hit by the friend... teacher said nothing. It sounds like it was handled, but I definitely would rather the teacher over tell me than not because I support the school financially...)

[Anonymous]

Kid. Always the kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The parents are to blame for not teaching discipline and manners and following through. Put the blame where it belongs: at home.

While I do think parents need to do more, kids often act different at school than at home. We absolutely would back any punishment a teacher doled out.

My middle child is very difficult at home, but apparently is an angel and even a leader at school. It boggles our mind. The kid that the teacher sees is not necessarily the kid that the parents see.

The bolded, combined with the fact that teachers rarely communicate clearly about kids' behavior in the classroom. We've liked all our kids' teachers, but the way they describe classroom behavior is a mystery. We literally always ask "how is her behavior in class? are there any issues we need to be addressing?" and the teachers will respond with some word salad that simultaneously makes me concerned there is misbehavior but fails to give me any sense of what the problem might be or what I might do.

Like regarding my kid who is really well behaved like 90% of the time but sometimes has random meltdowns when she's hungry, I'll get "Nope, no issues. Not really. Sometimes she gets frustrated. I'm encouraging her to express herself but at appropriate times. But really nothing to worry about." What does that mean? What is happening? I'll follow up and be told "no no no, she's so great, don't worry." My spouse and I have decided that likely there are some issues but because she's mostly great, they don't want to harp on it too much. I also get the sense there are always a few kids in any class who have tons of issues, so our kid who might have some issues looks great by comparison? But it also seems like teachers are loathe to just state directly "this is a problem, yes it would help if you could work on xyz at home." I've never had a teacher tell me something like this directly. It's like they'll obliquely reference an issue but not describe it well and then reassure us it's no big deal. But then why did they bring it up?

So at some point, I'm just like "okay, well let us know if there is anything we should know about." And we get self-reports from the kids of course but who knows how accurate those are. Both our kids complain a lot about school, but most of the complaints are about peers and stuff that sounds really petty to us ("I wanted to play on the swings during recess but Larla wouldn't give up her swing even though I asked really nicely!"). So who knows. Maybe our kids are terrors at school. We do our best.

I don’t know about private schools but my sister is a public school teacher and the degree to which it is not possible for adults in elementary schools to be direct with each other in addressing issues/concerns is mind-blowing. Every single slightly negative statement has to be dressed in a praise sandwich and delivered in the most “could we possibly think about” “would it maybe be possible to…”. It’s not just the kids and parents, it’s like no one can take an ounce of critical feedback even when it’s kind and constructively provided.

I think private school teachers are often discouraged from saying anything negative, especially to parents who are big donors or considered highly desirable members of the school community. There can also be weird dynamics when the parents of a kid are both extremely well educated and successful -- it's intimidating. Private school teachers often have to weigh the likelihood that parents will challenge any negative feedback. It's not always worth it.

Both public and private school teachers are discouraged from being direct, especially about negative issues. If a problem is severe enough, admin might get involved. Though in publics, the admin will also go into CYA mode.

Sometimes parents are the problem, but the lack of clear, actionable feedback to parents on kid's classroom issues is a real problem. Of course parents are apt to defend their children (this is actually positive, kids need advocates) but most parents would be willing to work with a school to address an issue. Most parents don't want to raise problematic people.

Ok how do I low key make it very clear that I'm team teacher and I want to hear all the shit on my kid so I can make sure they aren't the teacher's problem? (I say this as a mom of an almost 3 year old whose kid just told her he hit is friend at school today and then he said sorry and hugged... and then he changed the story to he got hit by the friend... teacher said nothing. It sounds like it was handled, but I definitely would rather the teacher over tell me than not because I support the school financially...)

You can’t do it “low key”. As soon as the moms on my group chat starting complaining I emailed the teacher and principal. I did not name names but said I was aware of complaints and that I 100% backed the teacher in whatever discipline she needed to use, my child included, to maintain an orderly classroom and that I appreciated the teacher’s patience and how much my child was learning from her. Remember that 90% of parent communication is complaining about feeling their kid was treated unfairly, so a supportive email is appreciated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The parents are to blame for not teaching discipline and manners and following through. Put the blame where it belongs: at home.

While I do think parents need to do more, kids often act different at school than at home. We absolutely would back any punishment a teacher doled out.

My middle child is very difficult at home, but apparently is an angel and even a leader at school. It boggles our mind. The kid that the teacher sees is not necessarily the kid that the parents see.

The bolded, combined with the fact that teachers rarely communicate clearly about kids' behavior in the classroom. We've liked all our kids' teachers, but the way they describe classroom behavior is a mystery. We literally always ask "how is her behavior in class? are there any issues we need to be addressing?" and the teachers will respond with some word salad that simultaneously makes me concerned there is misbehavior but fails to give me any sense of what the problem might be or what I might do.

Like regarding my kid who is really well behaved like 90% of the time but sometimes has random meltdowns when she's hungry, I'll get "Nope, no issues. Not really. Sometimes she gets frustrated. I'm encouraging her to express herself but at appropriate times. But really nothing to worry about." What does that mean? What is happening? I'll follow up and be told "no no no, she's so great, don't worry." My spouse and I have decided that likely there are some issues but because she's mostly great, they don't want to harp on it too much. I also get the sense there are always a few kids in any class who have tons of issues, so our kid who might have some issues looks great by comparison? But it also seems like teachers are loathe to just state directly "this is a problem, yes it would help if you could work on xyz at home." I've never had a teacher tell me something like this directly. It's like they'll obliquely reference an issue but not describe it well and then reassure us it's no big deal. But then why did they bring it up?

So at some point, I'm just like "okay, well let us know if there is anything we should know about." And we get self-reports from the kids of course but who knows how accurate those are. Both our kids complain a lot about school, but most of the complaints are about peers and stuff that sounds really petty to us ("I wanted to play on the swings during recess but Larla wouldn't give up her swing even though I asked really nicely!"). So who knows. Maybe our kids are terrors at school. We do our best.

I don’t know about private schools but my sister is a public school teacher and the degree to which it is not possible for adults in elementary schools to be direct with each other in addressing issues/concerns is mind-blowing. Every single slightly negative statement has to be dressed in a praise sandwich and delivered in the most “could we possibly think about” “would it maybe be possible to…”. It’s not just the kids and parents, it’s like no one can take an ounce of critical feedback even when it’s kind and constructively provided.

I think private school teachers are often discouraged from saying anything negative, especially to parents who are big donors or considered highly desirable members of the school community. There can also be weird dynamics when the parents of a kid are both extremely well educated and successful -- it's intimidating. Private school teachers often have to weigh the likelihood that parents will challenge any negative feedback. It's not always worth it.

Both public and private school teachers are discouraged from being direct, especially about negative issues. If a problem is severe enough, admin might get involved. Though in publics, the admin will also go into CYA mode.

Sometimes parents are the problem, but the lack of clear, actionable feedback to parents on kid's classroom issues is a real problem. Of course parents are apt to defend their children (this is actually positive, kids need advocates) but most parents would be willing to work with a school to address an issue. Most parents don't want to raise problematic people.

Ok how do I low key make it very clear that I'm team teacher and I want to hear all the shit on my kid so I can make sure they aren't the teacher's problem? (I say this as a mom of an almost 3 year old whose kid just told her he hit is friend at school today and then he said sorry and hugged... and then he changed the story to he got hit by the friend... teacher said nothing. It sounds like it was handled, but I definitely would rather the teacher over tell me than not because I support the school financially...)

You can’t do it “low key”. As soon as the moms on my group chat starting complaining I emailed the teacher and principal. I did not name names but said I was aware of complaints and that I 100% backed the teacher in whatever discipline she needed to use, my child included, to maintain an orderly classroom and that I appreciated the teacher’s patience and how much my child was learning from her. Remember that 90% of parent communication is complaining about feeling their kid was treated unfairly, so a supportive email is appreciated.

I'd rather them say something before it hits any group chats without like walking in day one and being like "hello, my kid may be a problem..." 🤣 (that's what I meant by low key... like how do I do it without making it seem like my kid is going to be their problem kid).

[Anonymous]

Kids are more disruptive than before, but also the new batch of teachers don't give me the best impression. It used to be that very smart and qualified people decided to be a teacher. Now they go somewhere else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kids are more disruptive than before, but also the new batch of teachers don't give me the best impression. It used to be that very smart and qualified people decided to be a teacher. Now they go somewhere else.

I mean the career path no longer has the reputation or respect it once did...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kid. Always the kid.

A child is not their actions. Never the kid. Look at parents, teacher, school and classroom climate, and society. All behaviors are from unmet needs and/or underdeveloped social and emotional competencies.