When does the chair thrower have to leave school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In elementary school, in situations where your child is not being actively bullied, try to teach patience and empathy for the often dysregulated kid. It helps no one when the typical kids get irritated and poke at a child who is easily upset. By middle school, its more just teach them to steer clear of problem kids.

I try to teach them empathy and steer clear at the same time. And yes, kids should not be taunting a volatile kid, for sure. But making all of the other kids walk on eggshells is not the answer.

This. I make sure my kid understands that children with these issues don't want to be violent and disruptive, that these kids pretty much all have something else going on in their life that is causing this behavior and hopefully they will get help to solve it and improve. But I'll also say it's not my kid's job to solve whatever it is, and her first obligation is to herself -- stay safe, protect your peace.

IME other kids rarely taunt volatile kids unless they have their own behavioral issues. When I've seen teasing/bullying at my kid's school, it's usually shy/quiet kids who get targeted, or kids who have some kind of outlier feature or behavior, like being much taller or shorter than classmates, coming from another place with an accent, having a really different family life than other kids, etc. The violent kids quickly gain reputations as being someone you should avoid. They are gossiped about but not provoked for obvious reasons. Kids are pretty rational about this.

Don't teach kids that they are responsible for the violent actions of someone else. Don't teach them that they need to accommodate violent behavior or learn to live with it because the violent person's feelings and experience are more important than theirs. Instead, teach them to report violent behavior to an authority figure, steer clear, and to understand that it's not their fault that someone is being violent or threatening.

So what’s worse - being a psychological bully deliberately causing harm, or being a dysregulated kid throwing things when overwhelmed?

The framing of this question illustrates the problem many of us are having with the discussion. Both options consider only them mentality of and impact on the kid perpetuating violence and completely ignore the externalities/impact on the other kids. When your kid gets hit with the chair and/or can't learn in a classroom and/or is afraid to go to school, who gives a damn? The moment the violence creates an unsafe environment the #1 priority needs to be safety and security of the broader community and not the poor disregulated child terrorizing the classroom and classmates. So many DCUM and DC parents looking to get a gold star for subjecting their kids to violence in the name of progressivity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In elementary school, in situations where your child is not being actively bullied, try to teach patience and empathy for the often dysregulated kid. It helps no one when the typical kids get irritated and poke at a child who is easily upset. By middle school, its more just teach them to steer clear of problem kids.

I try to teach them empathy and steer clear at the same time. And yes, kids should not be taunting a volatile kid, for sure. But making all of the other kids walk on eggshells is not the answer.

This. I make sure my kid understands that children with these issues don't want to be violent and disruptive, that these kids pretty much all have something else going on in their life that is causing this behavior and hopefully they will get help to solve it and improve. But I'll also say it's not my kid's job to solve whatever it is, and her first obligation is to herself -- stay safe, protect your peace.

IME other kids rarely taunt volatile kids unless they have their own behavioral issues. When I've seen teasing/bullying at my kid's school, it's usually shy/quiet kids who get targeted, or kids who have some kind of outlier feature or behavior, like being much taller or shorter than classmates, coming from another place with an accent, having a really different family life than other kids, etc. The violent kids quickly gain reputations as being someone you should avoid. They are gossiped about but not provoked for obvious reasons. Kids are pretty rational about this.

Don't teach kids that they are responsible for the violent actions of someone else. Don't teach them that they need to accommodate violent behavior or learn to live with it because the violent person's feelings and experience are more important than theirs. Instead, teach them to report violent behavior to an authority figure, steer clear, and to understand that it's not their fault that someone is being violent or threatening.

So what’s worse - being a psychological bully deliberately causing harm, or being a dysregulated kid throwing things when overwhelmed?

The framing of this question illustrates the problem many of us are having with the discussion. Both options consider only them mentality of and impact on the kid perpetuating violence and completely ignore the externalities/impact on the other kids. When your kid gets hit with the chair and/or can't learn in a classroom and/or is afraid to go to school, who gives a damn? The moment the violence creates an unsafe environment the #1 priority needs to be safety and security of the broader community and not the poor disregulated child terrorizing the classroom and classmates. So many DCUM and DC parents looking to get a gold star for subjecting their kids to violence in the name of progressivity.

+1 Violent kids need to be removed from standard classrooms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Threads like this pop up from time to time and are almost never productive or helpful - just filled with generalizations or hearsay that don't reflect the actual law, policies, or contexts that schools and families are working within. I wish Jeff would do more to moderate or remove them because they are ableist and often inaccurate.

Also, we're talking about a child in your school community who needs support - maybe use that framing instead of "chair thrower." It's not like there are one-size-fits-all spaces in self-contained classrooms or good special ed private schools for every student who would benefit from them.

The only good advice here is what a PP said about documenting and sharing with the teacher/principal factual info about the impact on your own child.

Whenever I see “ableist” used I just know there’s gonna be an uninterrupted streak of nonsense

I see what you think about disabled kids. You are sick.
Even if this child doesn’t have a disability, it’s clear they have trauma and no clear boundaries at home or at school. They need support and it’s clear that school does not know what to do. I was previously a special education teacher who now teachers general education, I have had a student who shattered a glass window by the door, I have had students throw items, and hit. Those students all stopped within a month. One took 2 months because it took me a while to get through to the parents.

In the meantime, I made sure NONE of my students got hurt and learning continued. It was difficult that first month but we got through it. The other students learned empathy and how to advocate for themselves as well.

The ‘chair thrower’ will not be leaving. You better ask the school what plan is in place and ask the teacher if they are actually able to follow the plan. Ask them what they are doing to ensure learning is continuing and how they are ensuring the safety of your child. If they cannot answer these simple questions fully the school isn’t actually doing much but running around like a chicken with its head cut off or seeing a fire and screaming ‘fire!’

Too bad. It’s a new world in 2025. You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think we will finally be able to get these violent kids out of the classrooms. The days of spending years to document are soon to be in the past.

You are funny. I am a teacher, are you? Definitely not if you think this.

You did not read what I said, just responded to respond.

I have never taught a student who I (with school supports) wasn’t able to turn it around so far. If ever I get a student like this it will be because the student unfortunately is mentally ill in a way a school cannot handle.

I’m not special, I just actually know my sh*t unlike most of these general education teachers who did not study disabilities or trauma. Or the ones who think being from a poor neighborhood means kids will listen to you.

Ps. I would rather teach kids who throw chairs, than ones who are ableist. Much harder to change. Hope you’re not instilling your hatred.

I’m happy to believe that many of these kids can turn it around with the right supports, and delighted for them to do so. But I don’t see the logic in having them in a big class with lots of other kids to target while they get to that point. Seems like they should start in a more self-contained environment and join a bigger class only after they’ve made it over the hump at least on violence (letting along other disruptions).

Pp here.
So you think kids with disabilities in a smaller class ‘deserve’ to have disruptions? I have also taught self-contained (for 6 years). Some years it would be a single student doing things like throwing chairs. Self contained does not mean dangerous behaviors.

And when they start in self-contained they almost never leave, even if they are ready.

Also, I have already said this but I’ll say it again. Sometimes the one ‘throwing chairs’ does NOT have a disability, so please tell me how they will be placed in self-contained?

These kids can absolutely turn it around, DCPS needs to do a better job. Why shouldn’t every classroom have an assistant and ECE have 2 assistants? Why shouldn’t PARENTS be required to be part of their child’s behavior plan? Why remove the student only to give them candy and have them return right away?

I hear people, I am not advocating to ignore such behavior or that the other kids don’t matter. But I am confused why you want a 3-18 year old children to have such adult consequences? Why not hold DCPS to a higher standard? Why punish the child?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Threads like this pop up from time to time and are almost never productive or helpful - just filled with generalizations or hearsay that don't reflect the actual law, policies, or contexts that schools and families are working within. I wish Jeff would do more to moderate or remove them because they are ableist and often inaccurate.

Also, we're talking about a child in your school community who needs support - maybe use that framing instead of "chair thrower." It's not like there are one-size-fits-all spaces in self-contained classrooms or good special ed private schools for every student who would benefit from them.

The only good advice here is what a PP said about documenting and sharing with the teacher/principal factual info about the impact on your own child.

Whenever I see “ableist” used I just know there’s gonna be an uninterrupted streak of nonsense

I see what you think about disabled kids. You are sick.
Even if this child doesn’t have a disability, it’s clear they have trauma and no clear boundaries at home or at school. They need support and it’s clear that school does not know what to do. I was previously a special education teacher who now teachers general education, I have had a student who shattered a glass window by the door, I have had students throw items, and hit. Those students all stopped within a month. One took 2 months because it took me a while to get through to the parents.

In the meantime, I made sure NONE of my students got hurt and learning continued. It was difficult that first month but we got through it. The other students learned empathy and how to advocate for themselves as well.

The ‘chair thrower’ will not be leaving. You better ask the school what plan is in place and ask the teacher if they are actually able to follow the plan. Ask them what they are doing to ensure learning is continuing and how they are ensuring the safety of your child. If they cannot answer these simple questions fully the school isn’t actually doing much but running around like a chicken with its head cut off or seeing a fire and screaming ‘fire!’

Too bad. It’s a new world in 2025. You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think we will finally be able to get these violent kids out of the classrooms. The days of spending years to document are soon to be in the past.

You are funny. I am a teacher, are you? Definitely not if you think this.

You did not read what I said, just responded to respond.

I have never taught a student who I (with school supports) wasn’t able to turn it around so far. If ever I get a student like this it will be because the student unfortunately is mentally ill in a way a school cannot handle.

I’m not special, I just actually know my sh*t unlike most of these general education teachers who did not study disabilities or trauma. Or the ones who think being from a poor neighborhood means kids will listen to you.

Ps. I would rather teach kids who throw chairs, than ones who are ableist. Much harder to change. Hope you’re not instilling your hatred.

People like you are why I left teaching. You may be a savior, but asking the majority of teachers, admins and professionals to magically deal with aggressive, physical behavior.

I just saw an article in the The Atlantic about increasing academic expectations. Whether they have thee hutzpah to confront issues around inclusion remains to bee seen. If Americans want to improve education, removing violent kids has to be a priority.

You left teaching because there are better teachers than you?

Magically? No…just knowledge of child development, neuroscience, knowledge of my contractual rights, AND supportive staff/parents. I don’t do this totally alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Threads like this pop up from time to time and are almost never productive or helpful - just filled with generalizations or hearsay that don't reflect the actual law, policies, or contexts that schools and families are working within. I wish Jeff would do more to moderate or remove them because they are ableist and often inaccurate.

Also, we're talking about a child in your school community who needs support - maybe use that framing instead of "chair thrower." It's not like there are one-size-fits-all spaces in self-contained classrooms or good special ed private schools for every student who would benefit from them.

The only good advice here is what a PP said about documenting and sharing with the teacher/principal factual info about the impact on your own child.

Whenever I see “ableist” used I just know there’s gonna be an uninterrupted streak of nonsense

I see what you think about disabled kids. You are sick.
Even if this child doesn’t have a disability, it’s clear they have trauma and no clear boundaries at home or at school. They need support and it’s clear that school does not know what to do. I was previously a special education teacher who now teachers general education, I have had a student who shattered a glass window by the door, I have had students throw items, and hit. Those students all stopped within a month. One took 2 months because it took me a while to get through to the parents.

In the meantime, I made sure NONE of my students got hurt and learning continued. It was difficult that first month but we got through it. The other students learned empathy and how to advocate for themselves as well.

The ‘chair thrower’ will not be leaving. You better ask the school what plan is in place and ask the teacher if they are actually able to follow the plan. Ask them what they are doing to ensure learning is continuing and how they are ensuring the safety of your child. If they cannot answer these simple questions fully the school isn’t actually doing much but running around like a chicken with its head cut off or seeing a fire and screaming ‘fire!’

Too bad. It’s a new world in 2025. You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think we will finally be able to get these violent kids out of the classrooms. The days of spending years to document are soon to be in the past.

You are funny. I am a teacher, are you? Definitely not if you think this.

You did not read what I said, just responded to respond.

I have never taught a student who I (with school supports) wasn’t able to turn it around so far. If ever I get a student like this it will be because the student unfortunately is mentally ill in a way a school cannot handle.

I’m not special, I just actually know my sh*t unlike most of these general education teachers who did not study disabilities or trauma. Or the ones who think being from a poor neighborhood means kids will listen to you.

Ps. I would rather teach kids who throw chairs, than ones who are ableist. Much harder to change. Hope you’re not instilling your hatred.

People like you are why I left teaching. You may be a savior, but asking the majority of teachers, admins and professionals to magically deal with aggressive, physical behavior.

I just saw an article in the The Atlantic about increasing academic expectations. Whether they have thee hutzpah to confront issues around inclusion remains to bee seen. If Americans want to improve education, removing violent kids has to be a priority.

You left teaching because there are better teachers than you?

Magically? No…just knowledge of child development, neuroscience, knowledge of my contractual rights, AND supportive staff/parents. I don’t do this totally alone.

DP. No, they left teaching because of the expectation, perpetuated by some teachers, that you need to be willing to sacrifice everything for your students. Even your personal safety. This is an unrealistic expectation for teachers given the pay, hours, education level required. If you expect most teachers to do this, you simply won't have enough teachers. Think about what they have to offer cops in order to put themselves in harms way for their jobs.

Which is why you need a system that protects teachers and doesn't put them in horrible situations where they might fear for their own safety or that of kids in their classroom. You need a system that doesn't stick a kid who just through a chair or a stapler at someone's head back in that classroom with no plan for preventing it from happening again. Because most teachers are just people, not saints, and have limits to what they will put up with.

[Anonymous]

It’s a difficult problem, to be sure, but the way we expect teachers and students to accept the risk of violence/injury is not acceptable. I have a friend who works with kids with challenges of this nature who has had to go to the ER for treatment several times due to injuries from assaults by students. It’s a fascinating difference: if one of my corporate clients had a worker injured on the job to the point where they had to go to the ER, the relevant manager would be called on the carpet by a pretty senior person in their org and if the issue wasn’t fixed, they’d be gone. The fact that the public schools seem sort of #YOLO about worker safety, it’s just really different and disturbing when you compare it how for-profit corporations approach that issue today.

[Anonymous]

They don’t need to leave the school, just the general population classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Threads like this pop up from time to time and are almost never productive or helpful - just filled with generalizations or hearsay that don't reflect the actual law, policies, or contexts that schools and families are working within. I wish Jeff would do more to moderate or remove them because they are ableist and often inaccurate.

Also, we're talking about a child in your school community who needs support - maybe use that framing instead of "chair thrower." It's not like there are one-size-fits-all spaces in self-contained classrooms or good special ed private schools for every student who would benefit from them.

The only good advice here is what a PP said about documenting and sharing with the teacher/principal factual info about the impact on your own child.

Too bad. One throw and the child should be removed from the classroom for the rest of the year.

What if the kid who threw the chair was not "special needs," but was really angry because he was being bullied and no one would help him. Does that kid belong in a special education classroom? Where does that kid go? Do hi sbullies get to stay in the classroom? They seem more dangerous to me.

What about the over exuberant boy who gets too rough and tackles his best friend while they were breaking the rules by playing ball in the classroom, giving that friend a head injury with bone fragments in the brain? My kid once unexpectedly beat the smartest boy in the class in a math facts game and the boy was so stunned and angry he impulsively punched my kid. Should that boy be sent to a special ed stand alone classroom?

Your "one throw" rule will eliminate far more children from the classroom than you appear to appreciate. Lot's of kids hurt their classmates. The current process is designed to make sure a child is not removed unless and until the school can determine and show that the behavior is beyond what can be addressed in a mainstream classroom. Does it take too long? Yes, mainly because there aren't enough options for moving children who cannot be accommodated in a classroom because we keep cutting the budgets to eliminate them. Just like there aren't enough beds in hospitals for troubled teens.

Did you cheer the elimination of the Dept. of Ed.? Expect more chair throwing in the classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s a difficult problem, to be sure, but the way we expect teachers and students to accept the risk of violence/injury is not acceptable. I have a friend who works with kids with challenges of this nature who has had to go to the ER for treatment several times due to injuries from assaults by students. It’s a fascinating difference: if one of my corporate clients had a worker injured on the job to the point where they had to go to the ER, the relevant manager would be called on the carpet by a pretty senior person in their org and if the issue wasn’t fixed, they’d be gone. The fact that the public schools seem sort of #YOLO about worker safety, it’s just really different and disturbing when you compare it how for-profit corporations approach that issue today.

You know a corporate environment and the rules there are very different from a public school or even an ER at a public hospital, right? There are a lot of laws and a lot of people's rights to balance on the public side that don't exist in your private corporation. It's the much harder version of different rights/different places, like, public school student had free speech rights at school that private school student do not have at school. The process people are complaining about, that does take too long, is the end result of experts/lawsuits/judges/legislatures etc., trying to figure out how best to balance all these competing rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They don’t need to leave the school, just the general population classroom.

And go where? Funded by what now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Threads like this pop up from time to time and are almost never productive or helpful - just filled with generalizations or hearsay that don't reflect the actual law, policies, or contexts that schools and families are working within. I wish Jeff would do more to moderate or remove them because they are ableist and often inaccurate.

Also, we're talking about a child in your school community who needs support - maybe use that framing instead of "chair thrower." It's not like there are one-size-fits-all spaces in self-contained classrooms or good special ed private schools for every student who would benefit from them.

The only good advice here is what a PP said about documenting and sharing with the teacher/principal factual info about the impact on your own child.

Whenever I see “ableist” used I just know there’s gonna be an uninterrupted streak of nonsense

I see what you think about disabled kids. You are sick.
Even if this child doesn’t have a disability, it’s clear they have trauma and no clear boundaries at home or at school. They need support and it’s clear that school does not know what to do. I was previously a special education teacher who now teachers general education, I have had a student who shattered a glass window by the door, I have had students throw items, and hit. Those students all stopped within a month. One took 2 months because it took me a while to get through to the parents.

In the meantime, I made sure NONE of my students got hurt and learning continued. It was difficult that first month but we got through it. The other students learned empathy and how to advocate for themselves as well.

The ‘chair thrower’ will not be leaving. You better ask the school what plan is in place and ask the teacher if they are actually able to follow the plan. Ask them what they are doing to ensure learning is continuing and how they are ensuring the safety of your child. If they cannot answer these simple questions fully the school isn’t actually doing much but running around like a chicken with its head cut off or seeing a fire and screaming ‘fire!’

Too bad. It’s a new world in 2025. You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think we will finally be able to get these violent kids out of the classrooms. The days of spending years to document are soon to be in the past.

You are funny. I am a teacher, are you? Definitely not if you think this.

You did not read what I said, just responded to respond.

I have never taught a student who I (with school supports) wasn’t able to turn it around so far. If ever I get a student like this it will be because the student unfortunately is mentally ill in a way a school cannot handle.

I’m not special, I just actually know my sh*t unlike most of these general education teachers who did not study disabilities or trauma. Or the ones who think being from a poor neighborhood means kids will listen to you.

Ps. I would rather teach kids who throw chairs, than ones who are ableist. Much harder to change. Hope you’re not instilling your hatred.

People like you are why I left teaching. You may be a savior, but asking the majority of teachers, admins and professionals to magically deal with aggressive, physical behavior.

I just saw an article in the The Atlantic about increasing academic expectations. Whether they have thee hutzpah to confront issues around inclusion remains to bee seen. If Americans want to improve education, removing violent kids has to be a priority.

You left teaching because there are better teachers than you?

Magically? No…just knowledge of child development, neuroscience, knowledge of my contractual rights, AND supportive staff/parents. I don’t do this totally alone.

DP. No, they left teaching because of the expectation, perpetuated by some teachers, that you need to be willing to sacrifice everything for your students. Even your personal safety. This is an unrealistic expectation for teachers given the pay, hours, education level required. If you expect most teachers to do this, you simply won't have enough teachers. Think about what they have to offer cops in order to put themselves in harms way for their jobs.

Which is why you need a system that protects teachers and doesn't put them in horrible situations where they might fear for their own safety or that of kids in their classroom. You need a system that doesn't stick a kid who just through a chair or a stapler at someone's head back in that classroom with no plan for preventing it from happening again. Because most teachers are just people, not saints, and have limits to what they will put up with.

I’m not a martyr, I just know my stuff and I read my own contract. It’s not like I’m even a 10th+ year teacher either. For example parents are a part of the behavior plan, I make them get on board or their child isn’t coming back to class. As much as some of you hate the WTU know our contract actually helps protect other children as well. This is just an example:


18.1.8. When a student is referred to the Supervisor's office because of behavior difficulties, the Supervisor shall confer with the Teacher involved before making a decision on the disposition of the student. Every effort should be made by the Supervisor and the Teacher to confer on the same day as the reported incident.
Every consideration should be given to resolving the incident in a manner intended to return the student to a productive and acceptable learning environment as soon as possible.

However, the Teacher shall have the right to request that the student not return to his/her class prior to a parent conference if the student 's behavior is so severe as to interfere with the Teacher's ability to provide instruction.

Ask if your school has a student behavior management committee. I bet they don’t. If teachers and parents don’t hold DCPS to the contract, law, etc. what do you expect? They will try to make teachers ‘sacrifice.’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Threads like this pop up from time to time and are almost never productive or helpful - just filled with generalizations or hearsay that don't reflect the actual law, policies, or contexts that schools and families are working within. I wish Jeff would do more to moderate or remove them because they are ableist and often inaccurate.

Also, we're talking about a child in your school community who needs support - maybe use that framing instead of "chair thrower." It's not like there are one-size-fits-all spaces in self-contained classrooms or good special ed private schools for every student who would benefit from them.

The only good advice here is what a PP said about documenting and sharing with the teacher/principal factual info about the impact on your own child.

Too bad. One throw and the child should be removed from the classroom for the rest of the year.

What if the kid who threw the chair was not "special needs," but was really angry because he was being bullied and no one would help him. Does that kid belong in a special education classroom? Where does that kid go? Do hi sbullies get to stay in the classroom? They seem more dangerous to me.

What about the over exuberant boy who gets too rough and tackles his best friend while they were breaking the rules by playing ball in the classroom, giving that friend a head injury with bone fragments in the brain? My kid once unexpectedly beat the smartest boy in the class in a math facts game and the boy was so stunned and angry he impulsively punched my kid. Should that boy be sent to a special ed stand alone classroom?

Your "one throw" rule will eliminate far more children from the classroom than you appear to appreciate. Lot's of kids hurt their classmates. The current process is designed to make sure a child is not removed unless and until the school can determine and show that the behavior is beyond what can be addressed in a mainstream classroom. Does it take too long? Yes, mainly because there aren't enough options for moving children who cannot be accommodated in a classroom because we keep cutting the budgets to eliminate them. Just like there aren't enough beds in hospitals for troubled teens.

Did you cheer the elimination of the Dept. of Ed.? Expect more chair throwing in the classroom.

Good lord the logic here is piss poor. The elimination of the Dept of Ed is going to return us to the schooling of the 80s and before. Anyone with special needs won’t be mainstreamed, alternative schools will reopen etc. You REALLY think the elimination of the Dept of Education will mean school systems will leave things as-is or allow kids to be MORE violent with no repercussions?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They don’t need to leave the school, just the general population classroom.

And go where? Funded by what now?

PP isn’t correct. We will return to these kids leaving the school. We will return to out of school suspensions and expulsions.

[Anonymous]

i cannot believe someone is comparing schools with children to for-profit-corporations

[Anonymous]

Depends on the chair, really.