Woodley pool suspends member over transgender swimmer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

Since you seem to have this figured out, I'd like to know whether you'd have my kid swim with boys or girls: She was born with all female parts and has never identified as or looked like anything but a girl. Chromosomally, however, she's less than 50% female. Do we need to bring her endocrinologist to certify her for every meet?

This is not as black and white as many people would like to think it is.

That situation is incredibly rare, but I think the solution in that case would be to have her swim with the girls since (1) she was assigned female at birth, and (2) she identifies as a girl. So that situation is actually more straightforward than a trans girl who was assigned male at birth, has male body parts, but identifies as a girl. In a youth sport, your daughter would have no issues. There may be issues at the HS, collegiate, or Olympic level. That's a thorny issue to navigate, but it affects a teeny tiny portion of the population.

We keep coming back to this: we, as a society, have decided to sex segregate sports. If we want to keep doing that, and I think we do, we need to be clear on how kids identify the group they compete with. And we have to agree. There is not wide public agreement that trans girls should swim on girls teams, yet some part of the population wants to pretend that there is. You can't pretend this! You live in a society with other people. There is not broad acceptance of trans girls on girls teams. We need another solution.

It is indeed incredibly rare, but my kid is naturally more muscular than other girls because of her disorder. Yet you'd allow her to compete against other girls because looks-wise, she passes and therefore doesn't make you uncomfortable.

She could compete with the girls, because she’s a girl.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

Since you seem to have this figured out, I'd like to know whether you'd have my kid swim with boys or girls: She was born with all female parts and has never identified as or looked like anything but a girl. Chromosomally, however, she's less than 50% female. Do we need to bring her endocrinologist to certify her for every meet?

This is not as black and white as many people would like to think it is.

That situation is incredibly rare, but I think the solution in that case would be to have her swim with the girls since (1) she was assigned female at birth, and (2) she identifies as a girl. So that situation is actually more straightforward than a trans girl who was assigned male at birth, has male body parts, but identifies as a girl. In a youth sport, your daughter would have no issues. There may be issues at the HS, collegiate, or Olympic level. That's a thorny issue to navigate, but it affects a teeny tiny portion of the population.

We keep coming back to this: we, as a society, have decided to sex segregate sports. If we want to keep doing that, and I think we do, we need to be clear on how kids identify the group they compete with. And we have to agree. There is not wide public agreement that trans girls should swim on girls teams, yet some part of the population wants to pretend that there is. You can't pretend this! You live in a society with other people. There is not broad acceptance of trans girls on girls teams. We need another solution.

It is indeed incredibly rare, but my kid is naturally more muscular than other girls because of her disorder. Yet you'd allow her to compete against other girls because looks-wise, she passes and therefore doesn't make you uncomfortable.

True DSD are so rare that I am quite surprised that we have a parent of a child with DSD on DCUM who happens to be on swim team in this specific thread. Quite a remarkable coincidence.

In this remarkably coincidental instance, accurate birth certificates submitted at registration would work for this kind of meet, and cheek swabs like World Athletics is starting will work at the upper levels.

[Anonymous]

Rename them XX and XY categories, show genetic proof to enter said category.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

Since you seem to have this figured out, I'd like to know whether you'd have my kid swim with boys or girls: She was born with all female parts and has never identified as or looked like anything but a girl. Chromosomally, however, she's less than 50% female. Do we need to bring her endocrinologist to certify her for every meet?

This is not as black and white as many people would like to think it is.

That situation is incredibly rare, but I think the solution in that case would be to have her swim with the girls since (1) she was assigned female at birth, and (2) she identifies as a girl. So that situation is actually more straightforward than a trans girl who was assigned male at birth, has male body parts, but identifies as a girl. In a youth sport, your daughter would have no issues. There may be issues at the HS, collegiate, or Olympic level. That's a thorny issue to navigate, but it affects a teeny tiny portion of the population.

We keep coming back to this: we, as a society, have decided to sex segregate sports. If we want to keep doing that, and I think we do, we need to be clear on how kids identify the group they compete with. And we have to agree. There is not wide public agreement that trans girls should swim on girls teams, yet some part of the population wants to pretend that there is. You can't pretend this! You live in a society with other people. There is not broad acceptance of trans girls on girls teams. We need another solution.

It is indeed incredibly rare, but my kid is naturally more muscular than other girls because of her disorder. Yet you'd allow her to compete against other girls because looks-wise, she passes and therefore doesn't make you uncomfortable.

True DSD are so rare that I am quite surprised that we have a parent of a child with DSD on DCUM who happens to be on swim team in this specific thread. Quite a remarkable coincidence.

In this remarkably coincidental instance, accurate birth certificates submitted at registration would work for this kind of meet, and cheek swabs like World Athletics is starting will work at the upper levels.

Oh please, informal summer pool mini meets with newbie swimmers do NOT require parents to bring birth certificates. Ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Really gross that they were not in the correct grouping and a parent had to stand up. Should’ve never happened.

You are assuming information that has not been presented. As did the dad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

Since you seem to have this figured out, I'd like to know whether you'd have my kid swim with boys or girls: She was born with all female parts and has never identified as or looked like anything but a girl. Chromosomally, however, she's less than 50% female. Do we need to bring her endocrinologist to certify her for every meet?

This is not as black and white as many people would like to think it is.

That situation is incredibly rare, but I think the solution in that case would be to have her swim with the girls since (1) she was assigned female at birth, and (2) she identifies as a girl. So that situation is actually more straightforward than a trans girl who was assigned male at birth, has male body parts, but identifies as a girl. In a youth sport, your daughter would have no issues. There may be issues at the HS, collegiate, or Olympic level. That's a thorny issue to navigate, but it affects a teeny tiny portion of the population.

We keep coming back to this: we, as a society, have decided to sex segregate sports. If we want to keep doing that, and I think we do, we need to be clear on how kids identify the group they compete with. And we have to agree. There is not wide public agreement that trans girls should swim on girls teams, yet some part of the population wants to pretend that there is. You can't pretend this! You live in a society with other people. There is not broad acceptance of trans girls on girls teams. We need another solution.

It is indeed incredibly rare, but my kid is naturally more muscular than other girls because of her disorder. Yet you'd allow her to compete against other girls because looks-wise, she passes and therefore doesn't make you uncomfortable.

True DSD are so rare that I am quite surprised that we have a parent of a child with DSD on DCUM who happens to be on swim team in this specific thread. Quite a remarkable coincidence.

In this remarkably coincidental instance, accurate birth certificates submitted at registration would work for this kind of meet, and cheek swabs like World Athletics is starting will work at the upper levels.

Mini-meet in summer swim. Birth certificates to determine sex in an 8&U mixed 25 meter kickboard race? I'm opposed to boys swimming as girls, but let's not lose perspective on what actually occurred here: b-meet in summer, super-vigilante Marshal wildly exceeds his role and engages in offensive behavior to visiting team (as supported by his own comments) and gets suspended for it. This isn't a referendum on trans swimming in the NVSL, just a jackass being a jackass on a hot-button issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Rename them XX and XY categories, show genetic proof to enter said category.

Overkill for summer swim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

We are talking about an adult male verbally abusing a little girl at a swimming pool. That's not "civil disobedience."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

Since you seem to have this figured out, I'd like to know whether you'd have my kid swim with boys or girls: She was born with all female parts and has never identified as or looked like anything but a girl. Chromosomally, however, she's less than 50% female. Do we need to bring her endocrinologist to certify her for every meet?

This is not as black and white as many people would like to think it is.

That situation is incredibly rare, but I think the solution in that case would be to have her swim with the girls since (1) she was assigned female at birth, and (2) she identifies as a girl. So that situation is actually more straightforward than a trans girl who was assigned male at birth, has male body parts, but identifies as a girl. In a youth sport, your daughter would have no issues. There may be issues at the HS, collegiate, or Olympic level. That's a thorny issue to navigate, but it affects a teeny tiny portion of the population.

We keep coming back to this: we, as a society, have decided to sex segregate sports. If we want to keep doing that, and I think we do, we need to be clear on how kids identify the group they compete with. And we have to agree. There is not wide public agreement that trans girls should swim on girls teams, yet some part of the population wants to pretend that there is. You can't pretend this! You live in a society with other people. There is not broad acceptance of trans girls on girls teams. We need another solution.

It is indeed incredibly rare, but my kid is naturally more muscular than other girls because of her disorder. Yet you'd allow her to compete against other girls because looks-wise, she passes and therefore doesn't make you uncomfortable.

True DSD are so rare that I am quite surprised that we have a parent of a child with DSD on DCUM who happens to be on swim team in this specific thread. Quite a remarkable coincidence.

In this remarkably coincidental instance, accurate birth certificates submitted at registration would work for this kind of meet, and cheek swabs like World Athletics is starting will work at the upper levels.

Oh please, informal summer pool mini meets with newbie swimmers do NOT require parents to bring birth certificates. Ridiculous.

I knew you were lying about having a child with a DSD.

What? I'm a DP. Should have prefaced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

Since you seem to have this figured out, I'd like to know whether you'd have my kid swim with boys or girls: She was born with all female parts and has never identified as or looked like anything but a girl. Chromosomally, however, she's less than 50% female. Do we need to bring her endocrinologist to certify her for every meet?

This is not as black and white as many people would like to think it is.

That situation is incredibly rare, but I think the solution in that case would be to have her swim with the girls since (1) she was assigned female at birth, and (2) she identifies as a girl. So that situation is actually more straightforward than a trans girl who was assigned male at birth, has male body parts, but identifies as a girl. In a youth sport, your daughter would have no issues. There may be issues at the HS, collegiate, or Olympic level. That's a thorny issue to navigate, but it affects a teeny tiny portion of the population.

We keep coming back to this: we, as a society, have decided to sex segregate sports. If we want to keep doing that, and I think we do, we need to be clear on how kids identify the group they compete with. And we have to agree. There is not wide public agreement that trans girls should swim on girls teams, yet some part of the population wants to pretend that there is. You can't pretend this! You live in a society with other people. There is not broad acceptance of trans girls on girls teams. We need another solution.

It is indeed incredibly rare, but my kid is naturally more muscular than other girls because of her disorder. Yet you'd allow her to compete against other girls because looks-wise, she passes and therefore doesn't make you uncomfortable.

True DSD are so rare that I am quite surprised that we have a parent of a child with DSD on DCUM who happens to be on swim team in this specific thread. Quite a remarkable coincidence.

In this remarkably coincidental instance, accurate birth certificates submitted at registration would work for this kind of meet, and cheek swabs like World Athletics is starting will work at the upper levels.

Oh please, informal summer pool mini meets with newbie swimmers do NOT require parents to bring birth certificates. Ridiculous.

I knew you were lying about having a child with a DSD.

What? I'm a DP. Should have prefaced.

Lol, PP is talking to me, and I love the certainty with which they are 100% wrong in multiple ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

I still think this is a bs inflammatory post, but just in case:

Are you seriously suggesting a volunteer league official should engage in civil disobedience like a sit-in or hunger strike during the meet? Do you really think the parent volunteers running this meet are part of some sort of top-down elitist conspiracy to stifle dissent? Are there really not better avenues for protest than being an a-hole to some guests and a bunch of little kids? If he felt this strongly, he shouldn't have continued as an official, using any semblence of a cloak of authority over his actions. His actions were wrong.

There is a process for objecting to rules during a meet: go to the team rep, and for violations of technical rules, the rep goes to the referee. This isn't a conspiracy, it is to keep order during a meet so parents aren't there until 10pm. A parent can challenge it all he wants--can talk to the other parents, send angry emails, have his board-member wife raise it at the next board meeting, etc. Being rude and disrespectful to a guest seems to have violated the pool code of conduct and he was suspended. Action-consequence.

[Anonymous]

Look, here is the question:

Should sports segregate by sex?

If your answer is no, then there is your fix. Don't segregate. It's one group. Trans and intersex kids become irrelevant. Though be prepared for fewer girls to participate in athletics, even at the youngest levels, because it's harder for them to be successful and the sports will naturally start to cater to boys in all respect (culture, training, how equipment is designed, etc.) because those will be the people most interested and successful in the sport. So it will be like it was 80 years ago.

If your answer is that yes, sports should segregate by sex, you have to have a firm line. A clear, firm line. Everyone on this side of the line competes with boys. Everyone on that side of the line competes with girls. The line has to be communicated to everyone and you need buy-in for where the line is drawn. You can't have one team drawing the line here and another team drawing it over there. You can't have a line that wiggles around depending on who is around that day and what "feels" fair in the moment. You need a clear line.

Whatever your stance on this, if you can't answer the bolded question above with a clear yes or no, then your input isn't really helpful here. And if your answer is yes, you need to be able to convey a clear, easy to follow rule for how kids get assigned to a competition group, and you need to be able to convince the most other people to agree with it. Otherwise you are trying to force a rule that feels unfair or wrong onto everyone else, and that's never going to work.

[Anonymous]

“On July 13, Fernandez was serving as marshal during a “mini meet” at Woodley when he noticed a male swimmer wearing a girls’ bathing suit competing in a girls’ race.”

July 13th was a Sunday. The bigger issue here is why was he not at home observing the Sabbath?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rename them XX and XY categories, show genetic proof to enter said category.

Overkill for summer swim.

If you believe this, then simply get rid of sex categories for summer swim. Heck, get rid of the competition element. Instead of meets, kids can just get together and swim as an exhibition. Don't record times. Ban timers.

On the other hand, if fairness in competition is at the root of all sports, which it is, then you have to have rules that people agree are as fair as you can make them. This is why, when I play a casual set of tennis with my friend for fun, we still agree that the ball has to land in the service box and you can't step over the line and a ball in doubles alley is still out. Because otherwise there's no real point in playing. We could just hit the ball back and forth for fun. Yet there we are, insisting on the game having rules and following those rules even though it's just a casual set for fun. The rules actually make it more fun because they are at the basis for the competition, and competition is fun.

If my friend arbitrarily decided that their ball is still in even if it's in the deuce box, that they can take an extra step over the line in their serve because their knees hurt, and they don't discuss that rule change with me first and get my buy in, it's going to be less fun for me because it won't feel fair. If I agree to it, great, but you can't just spring this on people and if they complain say "whatever it's just a casual game, who cares?" I care, if suddenly I'm losing every game because my friend gets to serve to the entire width of the court, and I don't even get a fair chance to return the ball.

Rules and fairness are fundamental to sports. At every level, in every setting.