Woodley pool suspends member over transgender swimmer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

So your solution to a casual child's swim meet is to rewrite the entire legal system and make parents carry around birth certificates all the time, do I have that right?

And in the moment for this kid, with this parent in this situation... what exactly? Because if a birth certificate wasn't going to fix this situation that just happened, what exactly would have satisfied this parent?

DP but the idea would be that kids are registered into either the boys group for the girls group upon registration, and a copy of a birth certificate would be part of registration. The same way you produce a medical health form when you enroll your kid in a sport. It's not actually a big deal.

No one is suggesting running around checking birth certificates at meets. What has to happen is to create rules everyone can be okay with and then enforce them upon registration. None of this should even be a question at a meet.

+1. This is really obvious. You register as a boy or a girl, for the whole swim season. That’s when you present/upload a birth certificate. Just like if you need a passport or a learners permit or something.

As for this case, the dad acted inappropriately. But did anyone ever come back and say “it was really a girl”? It sounds like no.

[Anonymous]

This guy did everything right and now he’s the villain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It was a mixed heat B meet. Dude overreacted and deserved to be suspended.

I don't see why it being a B meet matters if the situation was unfair to the girls competing. The kids are still trying to win.

Because it is a B meet in a fun, recreational, summer swim league from which there will never be any recruiting or monetary reward. It doesn't count for anything but each swimmer trying to get their own best time to make the cut for an A meet. You can swim your own best time no matter who is in the lane next to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We should not be deputizing random men to police the gender of children.

Yep, an adult man talking about the genitals of a child? Creeps need to eff off. Again, we have no idea if this kid was actually trans, and so what was this guy asking? To see the kid's genitals?

Did you even read the article you sick freak?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It should be based on birth because genetics are the issue here. And yes, little boys do swim faster than little girls. I can easily tell that by looking at our swim sheets.

I do think people need to stick up for females. Once we finally had our own sports and space, men come right back trying to take it away. You never see female to male trans swimmers wanting to swim in the boy heats. Why is it only okay for them to swim in the girl heats? Or compete on girl teams?

Note that it wasn't women who objected to this child swimming, though. In fact, a man confronted a group of women and engaged in abusive language at them because he had anointed himself Gender Inquisitor of the Swim Meet.

So a child was traumatized, women were verbally assaulted, and somehow this is a win for feminism? No thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We should not be deputizing random men to police the gender of children.

Yep, an adult man talking about the genitals of a child? Creeps need to eff off. Again, we have no idea if this kid was actually trans, and so what was this guy asking? To see the kid's genitals?

Did you even read the article you sick freak?!

Yes. An adult man saw a child in a girls swimsuit and determined that she was not sufficiently feminine, so he launched into transvestigation mode, ruining the event for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

Literally nobody cares if your kid is trans. Nobody.

We care when they get grouped with bio girls in swim meets and fathers lose opportunities for their own children.

We care when you shove boys in girls bathrooms.

We care when you insist we use names we don’t want to use.

Live your life just keep those that don’t want to play along alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It should be based on birth because genetics are the issue here. And yes, little boys do swim faster than little girls. I can easily tell that by looking at our swim sheets.

I do think people need to stick up for females. Once we finally had our own sports and space, men come right back trying to take it away. You never see female to male trans swimmers wanting to swim in the boy heats. Why is it only okay for them to swim in the girl heats? Or compete on girl teams?

Note that it wasn't women who objected to this child swimming, though. In fact, a man confronted a group of women and engaged in abusive language at them because he had anointed himself Gender Inquisitor of the Swim Meet.

So a child was traumatized, women were verbally assaulted, and somehow this is a win for feminism? No thank you.

Really? How do we know women were "verbally assaulted?" Where are the videos from the numerous people who were filming?

Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative, but it was basically a dad standing up for his daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is wild.

I would definitely like more info. Based on that interview, I'm tentatively on his side, but I don't trust the Daily Wire and also I'm very put off by him using a bunch of photos of his kids to help make him sympathetic here. Leave your kids out of it, this could expose them to harassment or ostracism at school and in other activities. People are insane on this issue.

I'm a liberal who doesn't think trans girls or women should compete in competitive female sports but these conversations are very hard to have and when I've revealed this opinion to liberal friends, the degree of vitriol I've received (from people I've known for years, who know me to be a reliable liberal/progressive) has been pretty shocking.

It doesn't even sound like it was a bona fide "trans child." It was just a boy who put on a girl's swim suit.

What are you basing that on?

OP's linked article. Did you even read it?

On July 13, Fernandez was serving as marshal during a “mini meet” at Woodley when he noticed a male swimmer wearing a girls’ bathing suit competing in a girls’ race.

OMG it was even just a mini meet, not even a real B meet. What a jerk this guy was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

Since you seem to have this figured out, I'd like to know whether you'd have my kid swim with boys or girls: She was born with all female parts and has never identified as or looked like anything but a girl. Chromosomally, however, she's less than 50% female. Do we need to bring her endocrinologist to certify her for every meet?

This is not as black and white as many people would like to think it is.

That situation is incredibly rare, but I think the solution in that case would be to have her swim with the girls since (1) she was assigned female at birth, and (2) she identifies as a girl. So that situation is actually more straightforward than a trans girl who was assigned male at birth, has male body parts, but identifies as a girl. In a youth sport, your daughter would have no issues. There may be issues at the HS, collegiate, or Olympic level. That's a thorny issue to navigate, but it affects a teeny tiny portion of the population.

We keep coming back to this: we, as a society, have decided to sex segregate sports. If we want to keep doing that, and I think we do, we need to be clear on how kids identify the group they compete with. And we have to agree. There is not wide public agreement that trans girls should swim on girls teams, yet some part of the population wants to pretend that there is. You can't pretend this! You live in a society with other people. There is not broad acceptance of trans girls on girls teams. We need another solution.

It is indeed incredibly rare, but my kid is naturally more muscular than other girls because of her disorder. Yet you'd allow her to compete against other girls because looks-wise, she passes and therefore doesn't make you uncomfortable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is wild.

I would definitely like more info. Based on that interview, I'm tentatively on his side, but I don't trust the Daily Wire and also I'm very put off by him using a bunch of photos of his kids to help make him sympathetic here. Leave your kids out of it, this could expose them to harassment or ostracism at school and in other activities. People are insane on this issue.

I'm a liberal who doesn't think trans girls or women should compete in competitive female sports but these conversations are very hard to have and when I've revealed this opinion to liberal friends, the degree of vitriol I've received (from people I've known for years, who know me to be a reliable liberal/progressive) has been pretty shocking.

It doesn't even sound like it was a bona fide "trans child." It was just a boy who put on a girl's swim suit.

What are you basing that on?

OP's linked article. Did you even read it?

On July 13, Fernandez was serving as marshal during a “mini meet” at Woodley when he noticed a male swimmer wearing a girls’ bathing suit competing in a girls’ race.

OMG it was even just a mini meet, not even a real B meet. What a jerk this guy was.

SERIOUSLY. It wasn’t even a B meet! It was a mini meet which at our pool is literally for the “minis” like our developmental swimmers not even ready for 8 and unders but he thinks he needs to be some vigilante. And we combine girl and boy boys even in B meets and certainly in our minis all the time to keep things moving. How could he have known for sure it was a boy in a girls suit? So many assumptions. They were right in my opinion for a suspension. Causing a disruption when you don’t have adequate information is inappropriate. These are children swimming, stop bringing your politics into it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was going to happen at some point. It’s not fair, and parents of girls are going to start calling it out. The dad was right.

Is he? There is no evidence that this was actually a boy or a trans girl. He just decided this and caused a scene. Either way his behavior would be mortifying to the child. I bet the kid's parents sue him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

So your solution to a casual child's swim meet is to rewrite the entire legal system and make parents carry around birth certificates all the time, do I have that right?

And in the moment for this kid, with this parent in this situation... what exactly? Because if a birth certificate wasn't going to fix this situation that just happened, what exactly would have satisfied this parent?

DP but the idea would be that kids are registered into either the boys group for the girls group upon registration, and a copy of a birth certificate would be part of registration. The same way you produce a medical health form when you enroll your kid in a sport. It's not actually a big deal.

No one is suggesting running around checking birth certificates at meets. What has to happen is to create rules everyone can be okay with and then enforce them upon registration. None of this should even be a question at a meet.

+1. This is really obvious. You register as a boy or a girl, for the whole swim season. That’s when you present/upload a birth certificate. Just like if you need a passport or a learners permit or something.

As for this case, the dad acted inappropriately. But did anyone ever come back and say “it was really a girl”? It sounds like no.

I mean, would you? This is a child! An elementary schooler. If some vigilante dude launched a gender investigation of my child based on his hunch that she was "really a boy," I wouldn't come forward either. It wouldn't be physically or emotionally safe for me or my daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This topic gives me serious anxiety. As a parent of an 8u boy, who has historically always loved more “feminine” things (dresses/barbies) and is always superwoman and not superman. I fear for him in the future, ugh.

The topic is complicated, but no reason this should have been blasted in such a public manner. The kid must feel awful. Concerns should have been dealt with privately. What a weird article with all of the photos he provided.

My younger sister was misgendered as a child simply because she's very tall and has broad shoulders (our Dad is a big former high school football player type). I can easily see some idiot sending a mob after a little girl just like my sister.

Which is one reason why we should have firm rules, grounded in fairness to all kids, so that everyone has trust in the system.

Having a "system" where the sport is segregated by sex but also sometimes teams allow kids of the opposite sex but same gender expression to compete, but there is no formal discussion of when this should be allowed, under what circumstances, no notice to participants, etc., creates a situation where people engage in this kind of vigilante gatekeeping.

If NVSL had clear rules on trans swimmers, and communicated those rules to all participants upon sign ups, you could totally eliminate this problem. Expecting everyone to have your exact same politics and attitude towards trans athletes is not a good way to do this, because the truth is they don't and you have to account for that.

Again please think through what this would look like. Because the only way for a kid in this situation to prove their sex is to strip naked.

I would much much rather have my kid lose a casual race to a boy than have a situation where my kid has to undergo gender checks because some parent demanded it.

Ridiculous. This problem would be easily solved if data accuracy in birth certificates is re-established and swimmers have to submit a birth certificate.

The problem now is that nobody trusts the system because data accuracy has been undermined by gender ideology believers with state power. But once data accuracy is restored, this problem is easily solved.

So your solution to a casual child's swim meet is to rewrite the entire legal system and make parents carry around birth certificates all the time, do I have that right?

And in the moment for this kid, with this parent in this situation... what exactly? Because if a birth certificate wasn't going to fix this situation that just happened, what exactly would have satisfied this parent?

DP but the idea would be that kids are registered into either the boys group for the girls group upon registration, and a copy of a birth certificate would be part of registration. The same way you produce a medical health form when you enroll your kid in a sport. It's not actually a big deal.

No one is suggesting running around checking birth certificates at meets. What has to happen is to create rules everyone can be okay with and then enforce them upon registration. None of this should even be a question at a meet.

+1. This is really obvious. You register as a boy or a girl, for the whole swim season. That’s when you present/upload a birth certificate. Just like if you need a passport or a learners permit or something.

As for this case, the dad acted inappropriately. But did anyone ever come back and say “it was really a girl”? It sounds like no.

I mean, would you? This is a child! An elementary schooler. If some vigilante dude launched a gender investigation of my child based on his hunch that she was "really a boy," I wouldn't come forward either. It wouldn't be physically or emotionally safe for me or my daughter.

Yes of course I would if it were my child and it was really a girl. You're so much of a wimp that at your private little swim club, you wouldn't take 5 minutes to clarify this?