Woodley pool suspends member over transgender swimmer.

[Anonymous]

In the history of all rights that are hard-fought and won, some people on the wrong side of history will always politely argue that they arejust fine with the issue being “discussed” in proper, formal chambers of power (which they control) and it is simply terrible to protest otherwise because these issues really are so unimportant.

It happens every time. And it’s happening now. Those of you defending the club here are fully on the wrong side of history on this issue. Eventually you will pretend that you did not support such grotesque sexism and misogyny, but not before you attempt to destroy people like the father here.

[Anonymous]

The article says this was on July 13, which was a Sunday. Was this even an NVSL meet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We should not be deputizing random men to police the gender of children.

Yep, an adult man talking about the genitals of a child? Creeps need to eff off. Again, we have no idea if this kid was actually trans, and so what was this guy asking? To see the kid's genitals?

Did you even read the article you sick freak?!

Yes. An adult man saw a child in a girls swimsuit and determined that she was not sufficiently feminine, so he launched into transvestigation mode, ruining the event for everyone.

Yep, the sick freaks are the people ruining a casual children's event by transvestigating children.

I feel much more unsafe from freaks like Fernandez than a trans kid any day.

[Anonymous]

[mastodon]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I think we can agree Fernandez acted inappropriately. He was acting as the marshal--holding the quiet sign and directing traffic. He had concerns and raised them to the referee (final arbiter of the rules) and the team reps (the meet managers responsible for the meet). At no point whole serving as an Official should he have engaged with the parents of the swimmer to criticize, belittle, or swear at them. And as an Official, he certainly shouldn't have added anything to the results sheets. The pool took action based on his actions towards their guests.

Agree completely he can object to girls swimming in boys heats and vice versa, and he did. He's wrong for how he handled it, not the objections themselves. Actions have consequences.

People go outside the system when the system promotes unfairness. They don’t protest unfairness in the system in ways that are neat and tidy.

So long as state and organizational power promotes an elitist and top-down belief system that is perceived as extremely unfair, people will continue to protest in ways that are “inappropriate.”

Is this a real response or are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? Fernandez was wrong for how he handled it, plain and simple. This was a b-meet in the summer, with summer parent volunteers in Division 14 of the NVSL. Let's apply some common sense and decency here. This isn't state action with elitist approaches--volunteers doing their best and he was a jackass.

We can have the conversation on how leagues should handle trans swimming and registration, but for this instance Fernandez was wrong for his actions, not his objections.

Of course it is a real response, and I think you’d be surprised to find how far in the minority of people outside of power you are in insisting that he was wrong in how he handled it.

And the problem with the bolded is that by demanding that objections only happen at vague undefined “conversations,” you really want to shut all conversations down entirely. That’s what’s happened on this issue this far. The top-down, state-backed organizations have bottled all conversations entirely.

When dissent isn’t permitted, protestors find ways to protest that aren’t official. That is the history of civil disobedience in this country, and especially tactics that campaigners for women’s rights have always been forced to use.

We are talking about an adult male verbally abusing a little girl at a swimming pool. That's not "civil disobedience."

DP. The article didn’t mention him saying anything directly to the child. He spoke up to other adults. And also apparently it was a little boy, not a little girl.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The article says this was on July 13, which was a Sunday. Was this even an NVSL meet?

No. Obviously it wasn’t even a real competition and this guy decided to make a scene over nothing. Probably hoping to make a name for himself and be appointed to the next Riley Gaines commission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The article says this was on July 13, which was a Sunday. Was this even an NVSL meet?

No. Obviously it wasn’t even a real competition and this guy decided to make a scene over nothing. Probably hoping to make a name for himself and be appointed to the next Riley Gaines commission.

He gave an interview to a right wing rag. Probably hoping for a Gofundme.

But the posters here fell for this obvious stunt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In the history of all rights that are hard-fought and won, some people on the wrong side of history will always politely argue that they arejust fine with the issue being “discussed” in proper, formal chambers of power (which they control) and it is simply terrible to protest otherwise because these issues really are so unimportant.

It happens every time. And it’s happening now. Those of you defending the club here are fully on the wrong side of history on this issue. Eventually you will pretend that you did not support such grotesque sexism and misogyny, but not before you attempt to destroy people like the father here.

Wow. Are you OK? Blink twice if you need help.

Fernandez can be right on the issue (and the right side of history) and wrong in his actions. Nobody has argued that Fernandez needs to submit to formal avenues for discussing his theories on swimming that are controlled by elitist top-down, paradigm controlling, illuminati-established, non-gold-standard believing organizations. Just don't be an a-hole to guests and little kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

It’s not bigoted at all. It’s what many would consider common sense. But it go against the idea that a trans girl *is* a girl in every sense of the word. A trans girl is not and never will be a biological female. It comes down to basing categories on gender (how one feels/identifies) vs sex (biology).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The article says this was on July 13, which was a Sunday. Was this even an NVSL meet?

No. It was hosted by a pool that has an NVSL team, but it was an invitational "mini meet" entirely for kids under 10, not an official event. Many of the participating kids aren't even on a swim team (as evidenced by the inclusion of kickboard races for kids who can't swim 25m independently yet). It isn't even a B meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

[Anonymous]

I live on the west coast and our summer swim league requires swimmers and divers to compete in the division of their sex assigned at birth. For diving, they’ve tried to help things a bit with the announcer reading out just names instead of pronouns before dives so that’s a non-issue. Ex.: “Larlo will be diving a 102”. But for awards divers have to be in a binary category. Once in a while someone will elect to dive exhibition so they won’t be called for awards in one category or another.

But we do have a swimwear exception permission policy. If a swimmer files one in advance of the season, they can wear a rash guard or full-coverage suit if they’re a biological boy, shorts or a rash guard if they’re a biological girl, etc. It also covers religious exemptions since we have some competitors who wear long sleeves and/or leg coverage due to their religion. Trans girls have been rare compared to trans boys and they have always chosen a girls’ rash guard and girls’ swim shorts rather than a competition suit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

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Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.