Is it not fair to say college rankings are basically just test score rankings?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:TO has allowed TOP schools to admit kids that are interesting without damaging their avg test scores…

Yet TO is MORE common below T20. These schools need to fight harder to stay afloat—particularly after T75.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TO has allowed TOP schools to admit kids that are interesting without damaging their avg test scores…

Yet TO is MORE common below T20. These schools need to fight harder to stay afloat—particularly after T75.

Hopkins, NE, Duke, Princeton have stayed TO longer than others. If USNWR were legit test required would weigh heavily. I wouldn’t out a single TO school in the top 25.

[Anonymous]

^ put

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every school has its institutional priorities but once those are met they are trying to fill the class with the strongest students they can attract. Test score profile is the strongest indicator of selectivity which is customers’ own ranking mechanism for which schools are best.

Yep. Which is why the quality has absolutely gone down at places like Hopkins that were test optional and pushed so hard to askew actual merit for institutional priorities.

Duke and of course Stanford I get but I struggle to understand why JHU and Northwestern are perceived as Ivy Peers and a cut above schools like Vandy, ND, WashU, CMU, Rice, Chicago, Gtown. It’s not in the test scores really and it’s not necessarily in the other characteristics of the schools.

Duke and Northwestern both had, for fall 2023, more test score submitters than Harvard Penn UChicago Brown etc. Among schools still TO for that admission season, only Yale had more (and of course test-required schools had more).

With JHU and Stanford returning to test required for the 2025-26 admission season, it will be interesting to see what Northwestern and Duke decide to do for next fall. Neither has announced a policy yet, as far as I know.

I still don’t grasp why Northwester and JHU are perceived as better than these other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every school has its institutional priorities but once those are met they are trying to fill the class with the strongest students they can attract. Test score profile is the strongest indicator of selectivity which is customers’ own ranking mechanism for which schools are best.

Yep. Which is why the quality has absolutely gone down at places like Hopkins that were test optional and pushed so hard to askew actual merit for institutional priorities.

Duke and of course Stanford I get but I struggle to understand why JHU and Northwestern are perceived as Ivy Peers and a cut above schools like Vandy, ND, WashU, CMU, Rice, Chicago, Gtown. It’s not in the test scores really and it’s not necessarily in the other characteristics of the schools.

Duke and Northwestern both had, for fall 2023, more test score submitters than Harvard Penn UChicago Brown etc. Among schools still TO for that admission season, only Yale had more (and of course test-required schools had more).

With JHU and Stanford returning to test required for the 2025-26 admission season, it will be interesting to see what Northwestern and Duke decide to do for next fall. Neither has announced a policy yet, as far as I know.

I still don’t grasp why Northwester and JHU are perceived as better than these other schools.

If you look at the list, nearly 80% at Northwestern students submit scores; it is under-ranked. John’s Hopkins is in 50s for percent submitting; it is over-ranked. Don’t lump them together.

[Anonymous]

Also, nobody has mentioned that math scores are higher than verbal scores. Just saying that if 2 schools have similar scores and percent submitting, and one of those schools is more STEM-y, the tie obviously should go to the less STEM school….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, nobody has mentioned that math scores are higher than verbal scores. Just saying that if 2 schools have similar scores and percent submitting, and one of those schools is more STEM-y, the tie obviously should go to the less STEM school….

This makes schools like CMU and rice look stronger

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every school has its institutional priorities but once those are met they are trying to fill the class with the strongest students they can attract. Test score profile is the strongest indicator of selectivity which is customers’ own ranking mechanism for which schools are best.

Yep. Which is why the quality has absolutely gone down at places like Hopkins that were test optional and pushed so hard to askew actual merit for institutional priorities.

Duke and of course Stanford I get but I struggle to understand why JHU and Northwestern are perceived as Ivy Peers and a cut above schools like Vandy, ND, WashU, CMU, Rice, Chicago, Gtown. It’s not in the test scores really and it’s not necessarily in the other characteristics of the schools.

Duke and Northwestern both had, for fall 2023, more test score submitters than Harvard Penn UChicago Brown etc. Among schools still TO for that admission season, only Yale had more (and of course test-required schools had more).

With JHU and Stanford returning to test required for the 2025-26 admission season, it will be interesting to see what Northwestern and Duke decide to do for next fall. Neither has announced a policy yet, as far as I know.

I still don’t grasp why Northwester and JHU are perceived as better than these other schools.

As the other poster mentioned, these two are apples and oranges as far as reported scores. What is not clear to you about Northwestern not being on par with these other schools? Do you know anything about NU?

Where % submitting = ACT and SAT % added together:

Yale 82% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
Duke 81% submitting, EBRW 740-770, math 760-800
Northwestern 79% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 730-770, math 760-790
Princeton 77% submitting, 1510-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
Brown 76% submitting, 1510-1560, EBRW 740-770, math 760-800
Harvard 74% submitting, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
UPenn 70% submitting, EBRW 730-770, math 770-800
Stanford 69% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
JHU 55% submitting, 1530-1560, EBRW 750-780, math 780-800
Vandy 51% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-770, math 770-790

Apologies in advance if there are typos.

[Anonymous]

^Sorry I would complete the rest of the T20 in between but got annoyed with writing this out. As a PP noted, it looks like JHU is ranked higher than it should be perhaps, but most top schools are in the same general area for scores, including NU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every school has its institutional priorities but once those are met they are trying to fill the class with the strongest students they can attract. Test score profile is the strongest indicator of selectivity which is customers’ own ranking mechanism for which schools are best.

Yep. Which is why the quality has absolutely gone down at places like Hopkins that were test optional and pushed so hard to askew actual merit for institutional priorities.

Duke and of course Stanford I get but I struggle to understand why JHU and Northwestern are perceived as Ivy Peers and a cut above schools like Vandy, ND, WashU, CMU, Rice, Chicago, Gtown. It’s not in the test scores really and it’s not necessarily in the other characteristics of the schools.

Duke and Northwestern both had, for fall 2023, more test score submitters than Harvard Penn UChicago Brown etc. Among schools still TO for that admission season, only Yale had more (and of course test-required schools had more).

With JHU and Stanford returning to test required for the 2025-26 admission season, it will be interesting to see what Northwestern and Duke decide to do for next fall. Neither has announced a policy yet, as far as I know.

I still don’t grasp why Northwester and JHU are perceived as better than these other schools.

As the other poster mentioned, these two are apples and oranges as far as reported scores. What is not clear to you about Northwestern not being on par with these other schools? Do you know anything about NU?

Where % submitting = ACT and SAT % added together:

Yale 82% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
Duke 81% submitting, EBRW 740-770, math 760-800
Northwestern 79% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 730-770, math 760-790
Princeton 77% submitting, 1510-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
Brown 76% submitting, 1510-1560, EBRW 740-770, math 760-800
Harvard 74% submitting, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
UPenn 70% submitting, EBRW 730-770, math 770-800
Stanford 69% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
JHU 55% submitting, 1530-1560, EBRW 750-780, math 780-800
Vandy 51% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-770, math 770-790

Apologies in advance if there are typos.

Depends on what you mean by "being on par". If you look at SAT scores, Northwestern looks the same as Princeton. But Princeton's non-binding yield is probably double Northwestern's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every school has its institutional priorities but once those are met they are trying to fill the class with the strongest students they can attract. Test score profile is the strongest indicator of selectivity which is customers’ own ranking mechanism for which schools are best.

Yep. Which is why the quality has absolutely gone down at places like Hopkins that were test optional and pushed so hard to askew actual merit for institutional priorities.

Duke and of course Stanford I get but I struggle to understand why JHU and Northwestern are perceived as Ivy Peers and a cut above schools like Vandy, ND, WashU, CMU, Rice, Chicago, Gtown. It’s not in the test scores really and it’s not necessarily in the other characteristics of the schools.

Duke and Northwestern both had, for fall 2023, more test score submitters than Harvard Penn UChicago Brown etc. Among schools still TO for that admission season, only Yale had more (and of course test-required schools had more).

With JHU and Stanford returning to test required for the 2025-26 admission season, it will be interesting to see what Northwestern and Duke decide to do for next fall. Neither has announced a policy yet, as far as I know.

I still don’t grasp why Northwester and JHU are perceived as better than these other schools.

As the other poster mentioned, these two are apples and oranges as far as reported scores. What is not clear to you about Northwestern not being on par with these other schools? Do you know anything about NU?

Where % submitting = ACT and SAT % added together:

Yale 82% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
Duke 81% submitting, EBRW 740-770, math 760-800
Northwestern 79% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 730-770, math 760-790
Princeton 77% submitting, 1510-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
Brown 76% submitting, 1510-1560, EBRW 740-770, math 760-800
Harvard 74% submitting, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
UPenn 70% submitting, EBRW 730-770, math 770-800
Stanford 69% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
JHU 55% submitting, 1530-1560, EBRW 750-780, math 780-800
Vandy 51% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-770, math 770-790

Apologies in advance if there are typos.

Depends on what you mean by "being on par". If you look at SAT scores, Northwestern looks the same as Princeton. But Princeton's non-binding yield is probably double Northwestern's.

Scores represent the enrolled class. Obviously HYP has better yield. So, yes, if you think higher yield (that is, what other families think) makes a school better, then Princeton is better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every school has its institutional priorities but once those are met they are trying to fill the class with the strongest students they can attract. Test score profile is the strongest indicator of selectivity which is customers’ own ranking mechanism for which schools are best.

Yep. Which is why the quality has absolutely gone down at places like Hopkins that were test optional and pushed so hard to askew actual merit for institutional priorities.

Duke and of course Stanford I get but I struggle to understand why JHU and Northwestern are perceived as Ivy Peers and a cut above schools like Vandy, ND, WashU, CMU, Rice, Chicago, Gtown. It’s not in the test scores really and it’s not necessarily in the other characteristics of the schools.

Duke and Northwestern both had, for fall 2023, more test score submitters than Harvard Penn UChicago Brown etc. Among schools still TO for that admission season, only Yale had more (and of course test-required schools had more).

With JHU and Stanford returning to test required for the 2025-26 admission season, it will be interesting to see what Northwestern and Duke decide to do for next fall. Neither has announced a policy yet, as far as I know.

I still don’t grasp why Northwester and JHU are perceived as better than these other schools.

As the other poster mentioned, these two are apples and oranges as far as reported scores. What is not clear to you about Northwestern not being on par with these other schools? Do you know anything about NU?

Where % submitting = ACT and SAT % added together:

Yale 82% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
Duke 81% submitting, EBRW 740-770, math 760-800
Northwestern 79% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 730-770, math 760-790
Princeton 77% submitting, 1510-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
Brown 76% submitting, 1510-1560, EBRW 740-770, math 760-800
Harvard 74% submitting, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
UPenn 70% submitting, EBRW 730-770, math 770-800
Stanford 69% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-780, math 760-800
JHU 55% submitting, 1530-1560, EBRW 750-780, math 780-800
Vandy 51% submitting, 1500-1560, EBRW 740-770, math 770-790

Apologies in advance if there are typos.

Not really disputing NU has a strong test profile, just that based on what I know about it, I don’t see why it’s any better than the schools ranked 15-25. I don’t get why it’s seen as a true Ivy equivalent whereas some others are not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The most highly ranked schools have the highest score profiles and it gradually declines as you go down the list. It’s all just a sorting mechanism based on test scores (outside of hooks). It seems nearly impossible that an unhooked student can get into a T15 type school without super high scores. Ironically TO may have made the emphasis on scores more pronounced because unhooked students essentially need great scores. For all the yapping about curating a class, they are really just filling their classes when the highest scoring kids they can get. This shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning a high score automatically gets you in anywhere.

I think USNWR is now kind of a mashup of two lists. The first is highly selective (high stat), wealthy schools (high resources) that are predominantly private. The second is high mobility (Pell grant), high research schools that are predominantly public. To boost schools in the second group, they dropped ranking criteria like class size, student-to-faculty ratio, and alumni giving %.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most highly ranked schools have the highest score profiles and it gradually declines as you go down the list. It’s all just a sorting mechanism based on test scores (outside of hooks). It seems nearly impossible that an unhooked student can get into a T15 type school without super high scores. Ironically TO may have made the emphasis on scores more pronounced because unhooked students essentially need great scores. For all the yapping about curating a class, they are really just filling their classes when the highest scoring kids they can get. This shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning a high score automatically gets you in anywhere.

I think USNWR is now kind of a mashup of two lists. The first is highly selective (high stat), wealthy schools (high resources) that are predominantly private. The second is high mobility (Pell grant), high research schools that are predominantly public. To boost schools in the second group, they dropped ranking criteria like class size, student-to-faculty ratio, and alumni giving %.

Best explanation I've ever read and is 1000000% true. Bravo

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Every school has its institutional priorities but once those are met they are trying to fill the class with the strongest students they can attract. Test score profile is the strongest indicator of selectivity which is customers’ own ranking mechanism for which schools are best.

Yep. Which is why the quality has absolutely gone down at places like Hopkins that were test optional and pushed so hard to askew actual merit for institutional priorities.

Duke and of course Stanford I get but I struggle to understand why JHU and Northwestern are perceived as Ivy Peers and a cut above schools like Vandy, ND, WashU, CMU, Rice, Chicago, Gtown. It’s not in the test scores really and it’s not necessarily in the other characteristics of the schools.

Many people do think that Vanderbilt, Nortre Dame, WashU, CMU, Rice, Chicago, and Georgetown are about the same level as Northwestern and JHU.