Is it not fair to say college rankings are basically just test score rankings?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Duke, Hopkins, Harvard, Cornell are all test optional

Not quite. Harvard is not test optional for the current admission season (announced around a year ago, IIRC)

JHU and Cornell are test optional only for the current cycle. Both already announced a return to requiring tests for the 2025-26 admission season.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Colleges ranked by test median with submitting % used to break ties (some of this is a year old):

Name/Median/% Submitting scores (X.XX/1.00)
MIT 1550 1.00
Duke 1550 0.93
Harvard 1550 0.74
JHU 1550 0.54
Yale 1540 0.82
Princeton 1540 0.77
Brown 1540 0.76
UChicago 1540 0.76
Rice 1540 0.72
UPenn 1540 0.70
Stanford 1540 0.69
WashU 1540 0.57
Carnegie Melon 1540 0.67
Vanderbilt 1540 0.51
Northwestern 1530 0.79
Columbia 1530 0.62
Dartmouth 1520 1.00
Cornell 1520 0.66
NYU 1520 0.39
Notre Dame 1500 0.66
Emory 1500 0.61
Tufts 1500 0.53
Northeastern 1500 0.35
Case Western 1490 0.66
USC 1490 0.46
Georgetown 1480 1.00
Boston College 1480 0.50
UMich Ann Arbor 1470 0.7
University of Virginia 1470 0.59
William & Mary 1470 0.59
Rochester 1470 0.36
UNC-CH 1460 0.63
UIUC 1450 0.56
University of Maryland (College Park) 1450 0.48
Wake Forest 1450 0.48
Tulane 1450 0.45
Brandeis 1450 0.43
BU 1450 0.4
Villanova 1450 0.36
Georgia Tech 1440 1.00
UWisconsin 1440 0.54
Stevens Insitute 1440 0.48
RPI 1430 0.6
Lehigh 1430 0.43
George Washington 1420 0.42
UMiami 1410 0.53
Binghampton 1410 0.48
Yeshiva University 1410 0.4
Santa Clara 1410 0.37
UWash 1410 0.19
Colorado School of Mines 1400 0.69
Minnesota 1400 0.42
SBU 1400 0.39
OSU 1395 0.77
UFlorida 1390 1.00
Rutgers 1380 0.55
UMass amherst 1380 0.31
American University 1370 0.36
North Carolina State 1360 0.72
Brigham Young University 1370 0.58
Virginia Tech 1360 0.54
Pitt 1360 0.5
Pepperdine 1360 0.21
University of Vermont 1340 0.46
Syracuse 1340 0.33
Purdue 1330 0.97
Drexel University 1330 0.44
UConn 1330 0.41
UGA 1320 1
FSU 1320 0.66
Clemson 1320 0.6
Auburn University 1320 0.16
Penn State 1310 0.39
SUNY Buffalo 1290 0.36
Indiana University 1280 0.57
University of Colorado Boulder 1280 0.35
University of Delaware 1280 0.28
Texas A&M 1260 0.5
University of Arizona 1260 0.35
Temple University 1260 0.26

I think median 1450 (Yes, during TO) is clearly a dividing line.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges ranked by test median with submitting % used to break ties (some of this is a year old):

Name/Median/% Submitting scores (X.XX/1.00)
MIT 1550 1.00
Duke 1550 0.93
Harvard 1550 0.74
JHU 1550 0.54
Yale 1540 0.82
Princeton 1540 0.77
Brown 1540 0.76
UChicago 1540 0.76
Rice 1540 0.72
UPenn 1540 0.70
Stanford 1540 0.69
WashU 1540 0.57
Carnegie Melon 1540 0.67
Vanderbilt 1540 0.51
Northwestern 1530 0.79
Columbia 1530 0.62
Dartmouth 1520 1.00
Cornell 1520 0.66
NYU 1520 0.39
Notre Dame 1500 0.66
Emory 1500 0.61
Tufts 1500 0.53
Northeastern 1500 0.35
Case Western 1490 0.66
USC 1490 0.46
Georgetown 1480 1.00
Boston College 1480 0.50
UMich Ann Arbor 1470 0.7
University of Virginia 1470 0.59
William & Mary 1470 0.59
Rochester 1470 0.36
UNC-CH 1460 0.63
UIUC 1450 0.56
University of Maryland (College Park) 1450 0.48
Wake Forest 1450 0.48
Tulane 1450 0.45
Brandeis 1450 0.43
BU 1450 0.4
Villanova 1450 0.36
Georgia Tech 1440 1.00
UWisconsin 1440 0.54
Stevens Insitute 1440 0.48
RPI 1430 0.6
Lehigh 1430 0.43
George Washington 1420 0.42
UMiami 1410 0.53
Binghampton 1410 0.48
Yeshiva University 1410 0.4
Santa Clara 1410 0.37
UWash 1410 0.19
Colorado School of Mines 1400 0.69
Minnesota 1400 0.42
SBU 1400 0.39
OSU 1395 0.77
UFlorida 1390 1.00
Rutgers 1380 0.55
UMass amherst 1380 0.31
American University 1370 0.36
North Carolina State 1360 0.72
Brigham Young University 1370 0.58
Virginia Tech 1360 0.54
Pitt 1360 0.5
Pepperdine 1360 0.21
University of Vermont 1340 0.46
Syracuse 1340 0.33
Purdue 1330 0.97
Drexel University 1330 0.44
UConn 1330 0.41
UGA 1320 1
FSU 1320 0.66
Clemson 1320 0.6
Auburn University 1320 0.16
Penn State 1310 0.39
SUNY Buffalo 1290 0.36
Indiana University 1280 0.57
University of Colorado Boulder 1280 0.35
University of Delaware 1280 0.28
Texas A&M 1260 0.5
University of Arizona 1260 0.35
Temple University 1260 0.26

Some of those will go slightly down because they are now test required. Hopkins, U Chicago Duke Harvard Cornell are still test optional so they will falsely post higher scores next year based on only a portion of kids submitting

+1

Can't compare SAT numbers from test optional and test required schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges ranked by test median with submitting % used to break ties (some of this is a year old):

Name/Median/% Submitting scores (X.XX/1.00)
MIT 1550 1.00
Duke 1550 0.93
Harvard 1550 0.74
JHU 1550 0.54
Yale 1540 0.82
Princeton 1540 0.77
Brown 1540 0.76
UChicago 1540 0.76
Rice 1540 0.72
UPenn 1540 0.70
Stanford 1540 0.69
WashU 1540 0.57
Carnegie Melon 1540 0.67
Vanderbilt 1540 0.51
Northwestern 1530 0.79
Columbia 1530 0.62
Dartmouth 1520 1.00
Cornell 1520 0.66
NYU 1520 0.39
Notre Dame 1500 0.66
Emory 1500 0.61
Tufts 1500 0.53
Northeastern 1500 0.35
Case Western 1490 0.66
USC 1490 0.46
Georgetown 1480 1.00
Boston College 1480 0.50
UMich Ann Arbor 1470 0.7
University of Virginia 1470 0.59
William & Mary 1470 0.59
Rochester 1470 0.36
UNC-CH 1460 0.63
UIUC 1450 0.56
University of Maryland (College Park) 1450 0.48
Wake Forest 1450 0.48
Tulane 1450 0.45
Brandeis 1450 0.43
BU 1450 0.4
Villanova 1450 0.36
Georgia Tech 1440 1.00
UWisconsin 1440 0.54
Stevens Insitute 1440 0.48
RPI 1430 0.6
Lehigh 1430 0.43
George Washington 1420 0.42
UMiami 1410 0.53
Binghampton 1410 0.48
Yeshiva University 1410 0.4
Santa Clara 1410 0.37
UWash 1410 0.19
Colorado School of Mines 1400 0.69
Minnesota 1400 0.42
SBU 1400 0.39
OSU 1395 0.77
UFlorida 1390 1.00
Rutgers 1380 0.55
UMass amherst 1380 0.31
American University 1370 0.36
North Carolina State 1360 0.72
Brigham Young University 1370 0.58
Virginia Tech 1360 0.54
Pitt 1360 0.5
Pepperdine 1360 0.21
University of Vermont 1340 0.46
Syracuse 1340 0.33
Purdue 1330 0.97
Drexel University 1330 0.44
UConn 1330 0.41
UGA 1320 1
FSU 1320 0.66
Clemson 1320 0.6
Auburn University 1320 0.16
Penn State 1310 0.39
SUNY Buffalo 1290 0.36
Indiana University 1280 0.57
University of Colorado Boulder 1280 0.35
University of Delaware 1280 0.28
Texas A&M 1260 0.5
University of Arizona 1260 0.35
Temple University 1260 0.26

OP here. This is my point. It basically mirrors USNWR rankings

No it doesn't. Case Western, William and Mary, Boston College, Tulane, Brandeis, Villanova are all higher here. FSU, Virginia Tech, Rutgers, Florida, OSU, Minnesota are lower.

Not perfect but close. State schools get a bump in USNWR because of Pell Grant stuff, social mobility etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges ranked by test median with submitting % used to break ties (some of this is a year old):

Name/Median/% Submitting scores (X.XX/1.00)
MIT 1550 1.00
Duke 1550 0.93
Harvard 1550 0.74
JHU 1550 0.54
Yale 1540 0.82
Princeton 1540 0.77
Brown 1540 0.76
UChicago 1540 0.76
Rice 1540 0.72
UPenn 1540 0.70
Stanford 1540 0.69
WashU 1540 0.57
Carnegie Melon 1540 0.67
Vanderbilt 1540 0.51
Northwestern 1530 0.79
Columbia 1530 0.62
Dartmouth 1520 1.00
Cornell 1520 0.66
NYU 1520 0.39
Notre Dame 1500 0.66
Emory 1500 0.61
Tufts 1500 0.53
Northeastern 1500 0.35
Case Western 1490 0.66
USC 1490 0.46
Georgetown 1480 1.00
Boston College 1480 0.50
UMich Ann Arbor 1470 0.7
University of Virginia 1470 0.59
William & Mary 1470 0.59
Rochester 1470 0.36
UNC-CH 1460 0.63
UIUC 1450 0.56
University of Maryland (College Park) 1450 0.48
Wake Forest 1450 0.48
Tulane 1450 0.45
Brandeis 1450 0.43
BU 1450 0.4
Villanova 1450 0.36
Georgia Tech 1440 1.00
UWisconsin 1440 0.54
Stevens Insitute 1440 0.48
RPI 1430 0.6
Lehigh 1430 0.43
George Washington 1420 0.42
UMiami 1410 0.53
Binghampton 1410 0.48
Yeshiva University 1410 0.4
Santa Clara 1410 0.37
UWash 1410 0.19
Colorado School of Mines 1400 0.69
Minnesota 1400 0.42
SBU 1400 0.39
OSU 1395 0.77
UFlorida 1390 1.00
Rutgers 1380 0.55
UMass amherst 1380 0.31
American University 1370 0.36
North Carolina State 1360 0.72
Brigham Young University 1370 0.58
Virginia Tech 1360 0.54
Pitt 1360 0.5
Pepperdine 1360 0.21
University of Vermont 1340 0.46
Syracuse 1340 0.33
Purdue 1330 0.97
Drexel University 1330 0.44
UConn 1330 0.41
UGA 1320 1
FSU 1320 0.66
Clemson 1320 0.6
Auburn University 1320 0.16
Penn State 1310 0.39
SUNY Buffalo 1290 0.36
Indiana University 1280 0.57
University of Colorado Boulder 1280 0.35
University of Delaware 1280 0.28
Texas A&M 1260 0.5
University of Arizona 1260 0.35
Temple University 1260 0.26

OP here. This is my point. It basically mirrors USNWR rankings

No it doesn't. Case Western, William and Mary, Boston College, Tulane, Brandeis, Villanova are all higher here. FSU, Virginia Tech, Rutgers, Florida, OSU, Minnesota are lower.

Not perfect but close. State schools get a bump in USNWR because of Pell Grant stuff, social mobility etc

Rutgers is now ranked higher than Wake Forest. As is Boston University. US News rankings have gone off the deep end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely not. Asian universities select SOLELY on test scores. Some European and Canadians select on a mix of test scores and grades.

The US is the epitome of a system that takes into account a host of soft skills that are difficult to quantify, such as quality of essays, extra-curricular achievements, particularly in sports, and legacy and development status.

It's absolutely normal (you'd think, right, OP?), that educational institutions pick candidates based on grades and tests scores. But the US puts significantly less emphasis on them than other countries.

South Korea uses test and grades. They recently adopted some US style (subjective selection based on stuff), and it's producing all sorts of BS as expected. Rich and powerful people take advantage of it.

That makes no sense for South Korea. People need to understand we have our college entrance system out of circumstance: we don’t have a unified education system nor a standardized exam that filters out only the top 0.1% like Korea does, and we never will.

[Anonymous]

“Shaping” a class just means they fill spots in certain majors—whether that’s English, engineering, or biology—or look for athletes or performers to play the roles their school has available.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges ranked by test median with submitting % used to break ties (some of this is a year old):

Name/Median/% Submitting scores (X.XX/1.00)
MIT 1550 1.00
Duke 1550 0.93
Harvard 1550 0.74
JHU 1550 0.54
Yale 1540 0.82
Princeton 1540 0.77
Brown 1540 0.76
UChicago 1540 0.76
Rice 1540 0.72
UPenn 1540 0.70
Stanford 1540 0.69
WashU 1540 0.57
Carnegie Melon 1540 0.67
Vanderbilt 1540 0.51
Northwestern 1530 0.79
Columbia 1530 0.62
Dartmouth 1520 1.00
Cornell 1520 0.66
NYU 1520 0.39
Notre Dame 1500 0.66
Emory 1500 0.61
Tufts 1500 0.53
Northeastern 1500 0.35
Case Western 1490 0.66
USC 1490 0.46
Georgetown 1480 1.00
Boston College 1480 0.50
UMich Ann Arbor 1470 0.7
University of Virginia 1470 0.59
William & Mary 1470 0.59
Rochester 1470 0.36
UNC-CH 1460 0.63
UIUC 1450 0.56
University of Maryland (College Park) 1450 0.48
Wake Forest 1450 0.48
Tulane 1450 0.45
Brandeis 1450 0.43
BU 1450 0.4
Villanova 1450 0.36
Georgia Tech 1440 1.00
UWisconsin 1440 0.54
Stevens Insitute 1440 0.48
RPI 1430 0.6
Lehigh 1430 0.43
George Washington 1420 0.42
UMiami 1410 0.53
Binghampton 1410 0.48
Yeshiva University 1410 0.4
Santa Clara 1410 0.37
UWash 1410 0.19
Colorado School of Mines 1400 0.69
Minnesota 1400 0.42
SBU 1400 0.39
OSU 1395 0.77
UFlorida 1390 1.00
Rutgers 1380 0.55
UMass amherst 1380 0.31
American University 1370 0.36
North Carolina State 1360 0.72
Brigham Young University 1370 0.58
Virginia Tech 1360 0.54
Pitt 1360 0.5
Pepperdine 1360 0.21
University of Vermont 1340 0.46
Syracuse 1340 0.33
Purdue 1330 0.97
Drexel University 1330 0.44
UConn 1330 0.41
UGA 1320 1
FSU 1320 0.66
Clemson 1320 0.6
Auburn University 1320 0.16
Penn State 1310 0.39
SUNY Buffalo 1290 0.36
Indiana University 1280 0.57
University of Colorado Boulder 1280 0.35
University of Delaware 1280 0.28
Texas A&M 1260 0.5
University of Arizona 1260 0.35
Temple University 1260 0.26

Some of those will go slightly down because they are now test required. Hopkins, U Chicago Duke Harvard Cornell are still test optional so they will falsely post higher scores next year based on only a portion of kids submitting

+1

Can't compare SAT numbers from test optional and test required schools.

You can but need to make some assumptions and adjustments

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The most highly ranked schools have the highest score profiles and it gradually declines as you go down the list. It’s all just a sorting mechanism based on test scores (outside of hooks). It seems nearly impossible that an unhooked student can get into a T15 type school without super high scores. Ironically TO may have made the emphasis on scores more pronounced because unhooked students essentially need great scores. For all the yapping about curating a class, they are really just filling their classes when the highest scoring kids they can get. This shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning a high score automatically gets you in anywhere.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most highly ranked schools have the highest score profiles and it gradually declines as you go down the list. It’s all just a sorting mechanism based on test scores (outside of hooks). It seems nearly impossible that an unhooked student can get into a T15 type school without super high scores. Ironically TO may have made the emphasis on scores more pronounced because unhooked students essentially need great scores. For all the yapping about curating a class, they are really just filling their classes when the highest scoring kids they can get. This shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning a high score automatically gets you in anywhere.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

If if were true that you need really high test scores to get into T15, you wouldn't see score report percentages below 95%. It's logical to assume that every TO admitted student had a test score below the reported median. Given grade inflation, we know a limited amount about those students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most highly ranked schools have the highest score profiles and it gradually declines as you go down the list. It’s all just a sorting mechanism based on test scores (outside of hooks). It seems nearly impossible that an unhooked student can get into a T15 type school without super high scores. Ironically TO may have made the emphasis on scores more pronounced because unhooked students essentially need great scores. For all the yapping about curating a class, they are really just filling their classes when the highest scoring kids they can get. This shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning a high score automatically gets you in anywhere.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

If if were true that you need really high test scores to get into T15, you wouldn't see score report percentages below 95%. It's logical to assume that every TO admitted student had a test score below the reported median. Given grade inflation, we know a limited amount about those students.

Hooked students are the ones with low scores or no scores. Athletes, URM, FG, development- the rest of the class is chosen among the highest scoring group the school can attract.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most highly ranked schools have the highest score profiles and it gradually declines as you go down the list. It’s all just a sorting mechanism based on test scores (outside of hooks). It seems nearly impossible that an unhooked student can get into a T15 type school without super high scores. Ironically TO may have made the emphasis on scores more pronounced because unhooked students essentially need great scores. For all the yapping about curating a class, they are really just filling their classes when the highest scoring kids they can get. This shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning a high score automatically gets you in anywhere.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

If if were true that you need really high test scores to get into T15, you wouldn't see score report percentages below 95%. It's logical to assume that every TO admitted student had a test score below the reported median. Given grade inflation, we know a limited amount about those students.

Hooked students are the ones with low scores or no scores. Athletes, URM, FG, development- the rest of the class is chosen among the highest scoring group the school can attract.

Do you really think that a full 49% of Vanderbilt students, 30% of Penn students, 38% of Columbia students, and 34% of Cornell students are "hooked"? If true, that's truly depressing. I'd imagine the number is closer to 10-15% though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most highly ranked schools have the highest score profiles and it gradually declines as you go down the list. It’s all just a sorting mechanism based on test scores (outside of hooks). It seems nearly impossible that an unhooked student can get into a T15 type school without super high scores. Ironically TO may have made the emphasis on scores more pronounced because unhooked students essentially need great scores. For all the yapping about curating a class, they are really just filling their classes when the highest scoring kids they can get. This shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning a high score automatically gets you in anywhere.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

If if were true that you need really high test scores to get into T15, you wouldn't see score report percentages below 95%. It's logical to assume that every TO admitted student had a test score below the reported median. Given grade inflation, we know a limited amount about those students.

Hooked students are the ones with low scores or no scores. Athletes, URM, FG, development- the rest of the class is chosen among the highest scoring group the school can attract.

URM is double sided. They take a shot on lower scoring fgli urm, but they also love the high scoring magnet and private boarding school URM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most highly ranked schools have the highest score profiles and it gradually declines as you go down the list. It’s all just a sorting mechanism based on test scores (outside of hooks). It seems nearly impossible that an unhooked student can get into a T15 type school without super high scores. Ironically TO may have made the emphasis on scores more pronounced because unhooked students essentially need great scores. For all the yapping about curating a class, they are really just filling their classes when the highest scoring kids they can get. This shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning a high score automatically gets you in anywhere.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

If if were true that you need really high test scores to get into T15, you wouldn't see score report percentages below 95%. It's logical to assume that every TO admitted student had a test score below the reported median. Given grade inflation, we know a limited amount about those students.

NP. The most recent rule of thumb is to submit if around the 25th percentile or higher, so having in the neighborhood of a quarter of the class not submit at top schools makes sense. Of course, this has led to a creeping increase of the 25th percentile, and accordingly it may make sense to submit even if a bit below.

Some of these schools are going back to test required, though it makes sense that others will remain test optional in the hope of attracting more URM applicants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most highly ranked schools have the highest score profiles and it gradually declines as you go down the list. It’s all just a sorting mechanism based on test scores (outside of hooks). It seems nearly impossible that an unhooked student can get into a T15 type school without super high scores. Ironically TO may have made the emphasis on scores more pronounced because unhooked students essentially need great scores. For all the yapping about curating a class, they are really just filling their classes when the highest scoring kids they can get. This shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning a high score automatically gets you in anywhere.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

If if were true that you need really high test scores to get into T15, you wouldn't see score report percentages below 95%. It's logical to assume that every TO admitted student had a test score below the reported median. Given grade inflation, we know a limited amount about those students.

Hooked students are the ones with low scores or no scores. Athletes, URM, FG, development- the rest of the class is chosen among the highest scoring group the school can attract.

Do you really think that a full 49% of Vanderbilt students, 30% of Penn students, 38% of Columbia students, and 34% of Cornell students are "hooked"? If true, that's truly depressing. I'd imagine the number is closer to 10-15% though.

Yes. Athletes alone are 20-35 pct.