Is it not fair to say college rankings are basically just test score rankings?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Definitely not. Asian universities select SOLELY on test scores. Some European and Canadians select on a mix of test scores and grades.

The US is the epitome of a system that takes into account a host of soft skills that are difficult to quantify, such as quality of essays, extra-curricular achievements, particularly in sports, and legacy and development status.

It's absolutely normal (you'd think, right, OP?), that educational institutions pick candidates based on grades and tests scores. But the US puts significantly less emphasis on them than other countries.

I like the U.S. system better. Apparently so do international student applicants around the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most highly ranked schools have the highest score profiles and it gradually declines as you go down the list. It’s all just a sorting mechanism based on test scores (outside of hooks). It seems nearly impossible that an unhooked student can get into a T15 type school without super high scores. Ironically TO may have made the emphasis on scores more pronounced because unhooked students essentially need great scores. For all the yapping about curating a class, they are really just filling their classes when the highest scoring kids they can get. This shouldn’t be interpreted as meaning a high score automatically gets you in anywhere.

For T15 you need the relatively high scores to pass the initial funnel. After that, the ECs, essays, recommendations come into play. And don't be mistaken, they DO shape or "curate" the incoming class based on institutional priorities.

+1

It's a balance. They do need high test scores for ranking to offset the TO admits, which are more heavily curated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This type of ranking is not useful under test optional. If a school only has a small percentage reporting but a higher average, that doesn't mean that overall their enrolled class has a higher average than the fifty other schools they leapfrogged due to their low % submitting.

totally agree. I appreciate that PP put the number submitted because it highlights how untrustworthy some of the numbers are. If the school is 40, 50 60+ percent test optional the numbers are meaningless. We can't compare unlike things.

[Anonymous]

Duke, Hopkins, Harvard, Cornell are all test optional

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Colleges ranked by test median with submitting % used to break ties (some of this is a year old):

Name/Median/% Submitting scores (X.XX/1.00)
MIT 1550 1.00
Duke 1550 0.93
Harvard 1550 0.74
JHU 1550 0.54
Yale 1540 0.82
Princeton 1540 0.77
Brown 1540 0.76
UChicago 1540 0.76
Rice 1540 0.72
UPenn 1540 0.70
Stanford 1540 0.69
WashU 1540 0.57
Carnegie Melon 1540 0.67
Vanderbilt 1540 0.51
Northwestern 1530 0.79
Columbia 1530 0.62
Dartmouth 1520 1.00
Cornell 1520 0.66
NYU 1520 0.39
Notre Dame 1500 0.66
Emory 1500 0.61
Tufts 1500 0.53
Northeastern 1500 0.35
Case Western 1490 0.66
USC 1490 0.46
Georgetown 1480 1.00
Boston College 1480 0.50
UMich Ann Arbor 1470 0.7
University of Virginia 1470 0.59
William & Mary 1470 0.59
Rochester 1470 0.36
UNC-CH 1460 0.63
UIUC 1450 0.56
University of Maryland (College Park) 1450 0.48
Wake Forest 1450 0.48
Tulane 1450 0.45
Brandeis 1450 0.43
BU 1450 0.4
Villanova 1450 0.36
Georgia Tech 1440 1.00
UWisconsin 1440 0.54
Stevens Insitute 1440 0.48
RPI 1430 0.6
Lehigh 1430 0.43
George Washington 1420 0.42
UMiami 1410 0.53
Binghampton 1410 0.48
Yeshiva University 1410 0.4
Santa Clara 1410 0.37
UWash 1410 0.19
Colorado School of Mines 1400 0.69
Minnesota 1400 0.42
SBU 1400 0.39
OSU 1395 0.77
UFlorida 1390 1.00
Rutgers 1380 0.55
UMass amherst 1380 0.31
American University 1370 0.36
North Carolina State 1360 0.72
Brigham Young University 1370 0.58
Virginia Tech 1360 0.54
Pitt 1360 0.5
Pepperdine 1360 0.21
University of Vermont 1340 0.46
Syracuse 1340 0.33
Purdue 1330 0.97
Drexel University 1330 0.44
UConn 1330 0.41
UGA 1320 1
FSU 1320 0.66
Clemson 1320 0.6
Auburn University 1320 0.16
Penn State 1310 0.39
SUNY Buffalo 1290 0.36
Indiana University 1280 0.57
University of Colorado Boulder 1280 0.35
University of Delaware 1280 0.28
Texas A&M 1260 0.5
University of Arizona 1260 0.35
Temple University 1260 0.26

Some of those will go slightly down because they are now test required. Hopkins, U Chicago Duke Harvard Cornell are still test optional so they will falsely post higher scores next year based on only a portion of kids submitting

[Anonymous]

I sat at a high school meeting with some college AOs and even at the top they value the transcript/rigor/grades first. Scores to support

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Duke, Hopkins, Harvard, Cornell are all test optional

curious why you selected these four?

In any case they are probably not test optional for long. And at least Duke and Harvard show a clear preference for applicants with scores.

I don't think scores are the end-all-be-all but we have gone too far in the other direction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This type of ranking is not useful under test optional. If a school only has a small percentage reporting but a higher average, that doesn't mean that overall their enrolled class has a higher average than the fifty other schools they leapfrogged due to their low % submitting.

Yes but save Rochester, Northeastern, Boston University, Santa Clara and many at the very bottom of the list, most have 50-60% submitting. Not that huge a difference.

Or 40-60. It's not like half are 20% and half are 80%

The one that really stands out is Georgetown -- 1480, but 100% reporting. I wonder how many spaces it would move up the rankings all schools medians were based on 100% reported scores?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This type of ranking is not useful under test optional. If a school only has a small percentage reporting but a higher average, that doesn't mean that overall their enrolled class has a higher average than the fifty other schools they leapfrogged due to their low % submitting.

Yes but save Rochester, Northeastern, Boston University, Santa Clara and many at the very bottom of the list, most have 50-60% submitting. Not that huge a difference.

Or 40-60. It's not like half are 20% and half are 80%

The one that really stands out is Georgetown -- 1480, but 100% reporting. I wonder how many spaces it would move up the rankings all schools medians were based on 100% reported scores?

And Dartmouth too. MIT, obviously, but they wouldn't move up!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Colleges ranked by test median with submitting % used to break ties (some of this is a year old):

Name/Median/% Submitting scores (X.XX/1.00)
MIT 1550 1.00
Duke 1550 0.93
Harvard 1550 0.74
JHU 1550 0.54
Yale 1540 0.82
Princeton 1540 0.77
Brown 1540 0.76
UChicago 1540 0.76
Rice 1540 0.72
UPenn 1540 0.70
Stanford 1540 0.69
WashU 1540 0.57
Carnegie Melon 1540 0.67
Vanderbilt 1540 0.51
Northwestern 1530 0.79
Columbia 1530 0.62
Dartmouth 1520 1.00
Cornell 1520 0.66
NYU 1520 0.39
Notre Dame 1500 0.66
Emory 1500 0.61
Tufts 1500 0.53
Northeastern 1500 0.35
Case Western 1490 0.66
USC 1490 0.46
Georgetown 1480 1.00
Boston College 1480 0.50
UMich Ann Arbor 1470 0.7
University of Virginia 1470 0.59
William & Mary 1470 0.59
Rochester 1470 0.36
UNC-CH 1460 0.63
UIUC 1450 0.56
University of Maryland (College Park) 1450 0.48
Wake Forest 1450 0.48
Tulane 1450 0.45
Brandeis 1450 0.43
BU 1450 0.4
Villanova 1450 0.36
Georgia Tech 1440 1.00
UWisconsin 1440 0.54
Stevens Insitute 1440 0.48
RPI 1430 0.6
Lehigh 1430 0.43
George Washington 1420 0.42
UMiami 1410 0.53
Binghampton 1410 0.48
Yeshiva University 1410 0.4
Santa Clara 1410 0.37
UWash 1410 0.19
Colorado School of Mines 1400 0.69
Minnesota 1400 0.42
SBU 1400 0.39
OSU 1395 0.77
UFlorida 1390 1.00
Rutgers 1380 0.55
UMass amherst 1380 0.31
American University 1370 0.36
North Carolina State 1360 0.72
Brigham Young University 1370 0.58
Virginia Tech 1360 0.54
Pitt 1360 0.5
Pepperdine 1360 0.21
University of Vermont 1340 0.46
Syracuse 1340 0.33
Purdue 1330 0.97
Drexel University 1330 0.44
UConn 1330 0.41
UGA 1320 1
FSU 1320 0.66
Clemson 1320 0.6
Auburn University 1320 0.16
Penn State 1310 0.39
SUNY Buffalo 1290 0.36
Indiana University 1280 0.57
University of Colorado Boulder 1280 0.35
University of Delaware 1280 0.28
Texas A&M 1260 0.5
University of Arizona 1260 0.35
Temple University 1260 0.26

OP here. This is my point. It basically mirrors USNWR rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This type of ranking is not useful under test optional. If a school only has a small percentage reporting but a higher average, that doesn't mean that overall their enrolled class has a higher average than the fifty other schools they leapfrogged due to their low % submitting.

Yes but save Rochester, Northeastern, Boston University, Santa Clara and many at the very bottom of the list, most have 50-60% submitting. Not that huge a difference.

Or 40-60. It's not like half are 20% and half are 80%

The one that really stands out is Georgetown -- 1480, but 100% reporting. I wonder how many spaces it would move up the rankings all schools medians were based on 100% reported scores?

Identical twins UVA and W&M would probably move down (around 1400-1410 median for both before TO.) Tulane, obviously Northeastern. Guessing Cornell would also probably move down just because of the sheer volume of seats they have to fill, especially considering the coming demographic cliff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges ranked by test median with submitting % used to break ties (some of this is a year old):

Name/Median/% Submitting scores (X.XX/1.00)
MIT 1550 1.00
Duke 1550 0.93
Harvard 1550 0.74
JHU 1550 0.54
Yale 1540 0.82
Princeton 1540 0.77
Brown 1540 0.76
UChicago 1540 0.76
Rice 1540 0.72
UPenn 1540 0.70
Stanford 1540 0.69
WashU 1540 0.57
Carnegie Melon 1540 0.67
Vanderbilt 1540 0.51
Northwestern 1530 0.79
Columbia 1530 0.62
Dartmouth 1520 1.00
Cornell 1520 0.66
NYU 1520 0.39
Notre Dame 1500 0.66
Emory 1500 0.61
Tufts 1500 0.53
Northeastern 1500 0.35
Case Western 1490 0.66
USC 1490 0.46
Georgetown 1480 1.00
Boston College 1480 0.50
UMich Ann Arbor 1470 0.7
University of Virginia 1470 0.59
William & Mary 1470 0.59
Rochester 1470 0.36
UNC-CH 1460 0.63
UIUC 1450 0.56
University of Maryland (College Park) 1450 0.48
Wake Forest 1450 0.48
Tulane 1450 0.45
Brandeis 1450 0.43
BU 1450 0.4
Villanova 1450 0.36
Georgia Tech 1440 1.00
UWisconsin 1440 0.54
Stevens Insitute 1440 0.48
RPI 1430 0.6
Lehigh 1430 0.43
George Washington 1420 0.42
UMiami 1410 0.53
Binghampton 1410 0.48
Yeshiva University 1410 0.4
Santa Clara 1410 0.37
UWash 1410 0.19
Colorado School of Mines 1400 0.69
Minnesota 1400 0.42
SBU 1400 0.39
OSU 1395 0.77
UFlorida 1390 1.00
Rutgers 1380 0.55
UMass amherst 1380 0.31
American University 1370 0.36
North Carolina State 1360 0.72
Brigham Young University 1370 0.58
Virginia Tech 1360 0.54
Pitt 1360 0.5
Pepperdine 1360 0.21
University of Vermont 1340 0.46
Syracuse 1340 0.33
Purdue 1330 0.97
Drexel University 1330 0.44
UConn 1330 0.41
UGA 1320 1
FSU 1320 0.66
Clemson 1320 0.6
Auburn University 1320 0.16
Penn State 1310 0.39
SUNY Buffalo 1290 0.36
Indiana University 1280 0.57
University of Colorado Boulder 1280 0.35
University of Delaware 1280 0.28
Texas A&M 1260 0.5
University of Arizona 1260 0.35
Temple University 1260 0.26

OP here. This is my point. It basically mirrors USNWR rankings

No it doesn't. Case Western, William and Mary, Boston College, Tulane, Brandeis, Villanova are all higher here. FSU, Virginia Tech, Rutgers, Florida, OSU, Minnesota are lower.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely not. Asian universities select SOLELY on test scores. Some European and Canadians select on a mix of test scores and grades.

The US is the epitome of a system that takes into account a host of soft skills that are difficult to quantify, such as quality of essays, extra-curricular achievements, particularly in sports, and legacy and development status.

It's absolutely normal (you'd think, right, OP?), that educational institutions pick candidates based on grades and tests scores. But the US puts significantly less emphasis on them than other countries.

I like the U.S. system better. Apparently so do international student applicants around the world.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Definitely not. Asian universities select SOLELY on test scores. Some European and Canadians select on a mix of test scores and grades.

The US is the epitome of a system that takes into account a host of soft skills that are difficult to quantify, such as quality of essays, extra-curricular achievements, particularly in sports, and legacy and development status.

It's absolutely normal (you'd think, right, OP?), that educational institutions pick candidates based on grades and tests scores. But the US puts significantly less emphasis on them than other countries.

South Korea uses test and grades. They recently adopted some US style (subjective selection based on stuff), and it's producing all sorts of BS as expected. Rich and powerful people take advantage of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges ranked by test median with submitting % used to break ties (some of this is a year old):

Name/Median/% Submitting scores (X.XX/1.00)
MIT 1550 1.00
Duke 1550 0.93
Harvard 1550 0.74
JHU 1550 0.54
Yale 1540 0.82
Princeton 1540 0.77
Brown 1540 0.76
UChicago 1540 0.76
Rice 1540 0.72
UPenn 1540 0.70
Stanford 1540 0.69
WashU 1540 0.57
Carnegie Melon 1540 0.67
Vanderbilt 1540 0.51
Northwestern 1530 0.79
Columbia 1530 0.62
Dartmouth 1520 1.00
Cornell 1520 0.66
NYU 1520 0.39
Notre Dame 1500 0.66
Emory 1500 0.61
Tufts 1500 0.53
Northeastern 1500 0.35
Case Western 1490 0.66
USC 1490 0.46
Georgetown 1480 1.00
Boston College 1480 0.50
UMich Ann Arbor 1470 0.7
University of Virginia 1470 0.59
William & Mary 1470 0.59
Rochester 1470 0.36
UNC-CH 1460 0.63
UIUC 1450 0.56
University of Maryland (College Park) 1450 0.48
Wake Forest 1450 0.48
Tulane 1450 0.45
Brandeis 1450 0.43
BU 1450 0.4
Villanova 1450 0.36
Georgia Tech 1440 1.00
UWisconsin 1440 0.54
Stevens Insitute 1440 0.48
RPI 1430 0.6
Lehigh 1430 0.43
George Washington 1420 0.42
UMiami 1410 0.53
Binghampton 1410 0.48
Yeshiva University 1410 0.4
Santa Clara 1410 0.37
UWash 1410 0.19
Colorado School of Mines 1400 0.69
Minnesota 1400 0.42
SBU 1400 0.39
OSU 1395 0.77
UFlorida 1390 1.00
Rutgers 1380 0.55
UMass amherst 1380 0.31
American University 1370 0.36
North Carolina State 1360 0.72
Brigham Young University 1370 0.58
Virginia Tech 1360 0.54
Pitt 1360 0.5
Pepperdine 1360 0.21
University of Vermont 1340 0.46
Syracuse 1340 0.33
Purdue 1330 0.97
Drexel University 1330 0.44
UConn 1330 0.41
UGA 1320 1
FSU 1320 0.66
Clemson 1320 0.6
Auburn University 1320 0.16
Penn State 1310 0.39
SUNY Buffalo 1290 0.36
Indiana University 1280 0.57
University of Colorado Boulder 1280 0.35
University of Delaware 1280 0.28
Texas A&M 1260 0.5
University of Arizona 1260 0.35
Temple University 1260 0.26

Some of those will go slightly down because they are now test required. Hopkins, U Chicago Duke Harvard Cornell are still test optional so they will falsely post higher scores next year based on only a portion of kids submitting

Harvard is not test optional for the current admission season (announced around a year ago, IIRC)

JHU and Cornell are test optional only for the current cycle. Both already announced a return to requiring tests for the 2025-26 admission season.