Wmata to target fare evaders on metro busses

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Gas taxes maintain the roads, build and maintain the bike lanes and heavily subsidize WMATA.

They are like super user fees.

Gas taxes don't come anywhere near covering the cost of road maintenance or road construction. To the extent that they are user fees at all, they are extremely inadequate user fees.

Nor do metro and bus fares. Does that mean those aren't user fees?

Metro fares are user fees. Bus fares are user fees. Tolls are user fees. Gas taxes are not user fees.

They're all fees that grow proportionally with usage despite not fully paying for the service being provided.

You keep saying that, or someone keeps saying that, but it's not so.

If we had a Vehicle Miles Traveled tax, that would be a user fee.

Someone should explain how internal combustion engines work to you. My five year old probably could.

I hope you model polite behavior for your five-year-old better in real life.

Meanwhile, people keep buying electric vehicles.

So because some people are able to avoid the fee, it isn't a user fee?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Gas taxes maintain the roads, build and maintain the bike lanes and heavily subsidize WMATA.

They are like super user fees.

Gas taxes don't come anywhere near covering the cost of road maintenance or road construction. To the extent that they are user fees at all, they are extremely inadequate user fees.

Nor do metro and bus fares. Does that mean those aren't user fees?

Metro fares are user fees. Bus fares are user fees. Tolls are user fees. Gas taxes are not user fees.

They're all fees that grow proportionally with usage despite not fully paying for the service being provided.

You keep saying that, or someone keeps saying that, but it's not so.

If we had a Vehicle Miles Traveled tax, that would be a user fee.

Someone should explain how internal combustion engines work to you. My five year old probably could.

I hope you model polite behavior for your five-year-old better in real life.

Meanwhile, people keep buying electric vehicles.

So because some people are able to avoid the fee, it isn't a user fee?

They are getting a flat tax in the form of increased registration fees. You can't avoid the tax man.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/without-a-gas-tax-how-will-evs-be-charged-for-road-use-a1206432507/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

Completely agree, excellent point! If drivers paid anything close to full freight for their use of their personal vehicles on public streets, they'd be begging for robust mass transit options in their communities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

Completely agree, excellent point! If drivers paid anything close to full freight for their use of their personal vehicles on public streets, they'd be begging for robust mass transit options in their communities.

You might want to take a look at WMATA's farebox ratio before arguing that point.

[Anonymous]

Maryland fuel taxes cover about 50-70% of roadway maintenance costs (if you assume they all go toward roadways, rather than also including seaports, airports, and public transits).

Pre-covid, WMATA fares covered about 40% of metros operational costs and 20% of metro bus costs. In 2022, those dropped to 11% and 7%, respectively. It has recovered a bit since then, but the latest numbers I see still put WMATA at 16%.

So, suppose they get up to 20%. If you had people choose between paying $34 for a one-way metro ride into the city versus doubling the gas tax, do you really think people would choose the $34 fare?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

Gas taxes fund roads. It's gas isn't *exclusively* used in vehicles, but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that about 99% of it is.

There are people that think we should levy additional fees on electric vehicles because they don't use gas. That will probably happen some day, but we seem to still be in the situation where we want to encourage their use through subsidies.

Gas taxes remain very close to user fees.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea fare evasion would be less if public transit was subsidized more. What's your basis for that claim?

Keep in mind roads are built and maintained by private entities, localities, states and the federal government. Only states and the feds and a few localities can impose gas taxes. That means the vast majority of roads are not supported by gas taxes, but by general sources of revenue. So it really does fail the user fee test.

As for fare evasion, it’s pretty simple. The lower the friction to use a system, the less evasion you'll have. You don't have to worry about fare evasion at all with a free bus for instance. No one worries about toll evasion on Connecticut Avenue, because there is no toll. Put up toll booths, and now you'll have to deal with toll evaders.

This is a really dumb thing to argue.

Montgomery County, MD only budgets $20.5 million out of a $7.1 billion dollar budget for road maintenance.
https://apps.montgomerycountymd.gov/BASISOPERATING/Common/BudgetSnapshot.aspx?ID=50D&TYPE=DEPT

MoCo has an operating budget and a capital budget. Look up how much is spent on roads annually in the capital budget.

You’re stupid and just exposing yourself. Please do tell what roads are funded in the CIP?

Wow. Pot, meet kettle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maryland fuel taxes cover about 50-70% of roadway maintenance costs (if you assume they all go toward roadways, rather than also including seaports, airports, and public transits).

Pre-covid, WMATA fares covered about 40% of metros operational costs and 20% of metro bus costs. In 2022, those dropped to 11% and 7%, respectively. It has recovered a bit since then, but the latest numbers I see still put WMATA at 16%.

So, suppose they get up to 20%. If you had people choose between paying $34 for a one-way metro ride into the city versus doubling the gas tax, do you really think people would choose the $34 fare?

Seaports, airports, and public transit are typically independent government authorities around here. They have and do levy taxes on their services and properties. If a local jurisdiction gives them money, it can be from any source. However, it's a "one time" thing that happens periodically and in Fairfax County it is done via public bond. After all, the state is mainly responsible for the public roads, not the locality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maryland fuel taxes cover about 50-70% of roadway maintenance costs (if you assume they all go toward roadways, rather than also including seaports, airports, and public transits).

Pre-covid, WMATA fares covered about 40% of metros operational costs and 20% of metro bus costs. In 2022, those dropped to 11% and 7%, respectively. It has recovered a bit since then, but the latest numbers I see still put WMATA at 16%.

So, suppose they get up to 20%. If you had people choose between paying $34 for a one-way metro ride into the city versus doubling the gas tax, do you really think people would choose the $34 fare?

Seaports, airports, and public transit are typically independent government authorities around here. They have and do levy taxes on their services and properties. If a local jurisdiction gives them money, it can be from any source. However, it's a "one time" thing that happens periodically and in Fairfax County it is done via public bond. After all, the state is mainly responsible for the public roads, not the locality.

In Maryland, fuel taxes go into the Transportation Trust Fund, which is the source of funding for a broad range of transportation projects.

[Anonymous]

Finally some good news!

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/dc-metro-fare-evader-seriously-hurt-after-falling-down-to-platform/3787798/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Finally some good news!

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/dc-metro-fare-evader-seriously-hurt-after-falling-down-to-platform/3787798/

Where's the video?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finally some good news!

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/dc-metro-fare-evader-seriously-hurt-after-falling-down-to-platform/3787798/

Where's the video?

It doesn't disappoint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Finally some good news!

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/dc-metro-fare-evader-seriously-hurt-after-falling-down-to-platform/3787798/

OMG came here to post this but I had seen the video, which indeed does not disappoint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finally some good news! :)

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/dc-metro-fare-evader-seriously-hurt-after-falling-down-to-platform/3787798/

Where's the video?

It doesn't disappoint.

This is racist according to city council and probably many others! Haha

But to everyone else it's hilarious 🤣

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Take your kid on the bus with you. I think mine actually shamed some people into paying, saying loudly, "Why did you pay, Mom, when almost no one else on this bus does?" The bus driver actually laughed. Barring issues with the fare box, pay up, people. We have let this slide for too long and it is time to course correct. There are subsidy programs for seniors, Kids Ride Free, etc. that people can access if cost is an issue.

Where is this? D.C.? So people just walk on past the bus driver? Why is this even a thing?
I hate how DC is run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finally some good news!

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/dc-metro-fare-evader-seriously-hurt-after-falling-down-to-platform/3787798/

Where's the video?

This is not at all hilarious. Do you see the man power needed to save him? Who will pay his hospital bills for his severe injuries? We all will.

Also, he must have been drunk or high.