Wmata to target fare evaders on metro busses

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

They are not.

They're fees that are directly proportional to usage that are earmarked for maintenance of the service being used. That's awfully similar to a user fee.

How are gas taxes directly proportional to usage? If you have a very fuel-efficient vehicle that runs on gas, you can drive a lot while paying little in gas taxes. If you have a very fuel-inefficient vehicle that runs on gas, you have to pay a lot in gas taxes even if you only drive a little. If you have an electric vehicle, you can drive a gazillion miles while never paying a penny in gas taxes. If you have a gas-powered lawn mower, chain saw, generator, you pay gas taxes while never driving a single inch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Gas taxes maintain the roads, build and maintain the bike lanes and heavily subsidize WMATA.

They are like super user fees.

Gas taxes don't come anywhere near covering the cost of road maintenance or road construction. To the extent that they are user fees at all, they are extremely inadequate user fees.

Nor do metro and bus fares. Does that mean those aren't user fees?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

They are not.

They're fees that are directly proportional to usage that are earmarked for maintenance of the service being used. That's awfully similar to a user fee.

How are gas taxes directly proportional to usage? If you have a very fuel-efficient vehicle that runs on gas, you can drive a lot while paying little in gas taxes. If you have a very fuel-inefficient vehicle that runs on gas, you have to pay a lot in gas taxes even if you only drive a little. If you have an electric vehicle, you can drive a gazillion miles while never paying a penny in gas taxes. If you have a gas-powered lawn mower, chain saw, generator, you pay gas taxes while never driving a single inch.

Come back after you look up the word "proportional."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

Gas taxes fund roads. It's gas isn't *exclusively* used in vehicles, but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that about 99% of it is.

There are people that think we should levy additional fees on electric vehicles because they don't use gas. That will probably happen some day, but we seem to still be in the situation where we want to encourage their use through subsidies.

Gas taxes remain very close to user fees.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea fare evasion would be less if public transit was subsidized more. What's your basis for that claim?

Keep in mind roads are built and maintained by private entities, localities, states and the federal government. Only states and the feds and a few localities can impose gas taxes. That means the vast majority of roads are not supported by gas taxes, but by general sources of revenue. So it really does fail the user fee test.

As for fare evasion, it’s pretty simple. The lower the friction to use a system, the less evasion you'll have. You don't have to worry about fare evasion at all with a free bus for instance. No one worries about toll evasion on Connecticut Avenue, because there is no toll. Put up toll booths, and now you'll have to deal with toll evaders.

This is a really dumb thing to argue.

Montgomery County, MD only budgets $20.5 million out of a $7.1 billion dollar budget for road maintenance.
https://apps.montgomerycountymd.gov/BASISOPERATING/Common/BudgetSnapshot.aspx?ID=50D&TYPE=DEPT

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

Gas taxes fund roads. It's gas isn't *exclusively* used in vehicles, but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that about 99% of it is.

There are people that think we should levy additional fees on electric vehicles because they don't use gas. That will probably happen some day, but we seem to still be in the situation where we want to encourage their use through subsidies.

Gas taxes remain very close to user fees.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea fare evasion would be less if public transit was subsidized more. What's your basis for that claim?

Keep in mind roads are built and maintained by private entities, localities, states and the federal government. Only states and the feds and a few localities can impose gas taxes. That means the vast majority of roads are not supported by gas taxes, but by general sources of revenue. So it really does fail the user fee test.

As for fare evasion, it’s pretty simple. The lower the friction to use a system, the less evasion you'll have. You don't have to worry about fare evasion at all with a free bus for instance. No one worries about toll evasion on Connecticut Avenue, because there is no toll. Put up toll booths, and now you'll have to deal with toll evaders.

This is a really dumb thing to argue.

Montgomery County, MD only budgets $20.5 million out of a $7.1 billion dollar budget for road maintenance.
https://apps.montgomerycountymd.gov/BASISOPERATING/Common/BudgetSnapshot.aspx?ID=50D&TYPE=DEPT

MoCo has an operating budget and a capital budget. Look up how much is spent on roads annually in the capital budget.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

Gas taxes fund roads. It's gas isn't *exclusively* used in vehicles, but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that about 99% of it is.

There are people that think we should levy additional fees on electric vehicles because they don't use gas. That will probably happen some day, but we seem to still be in the situation where we want to encourage their use through subsidies.

Gas taxes remain very close to user fees.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea fare evasion would be less if public transit was subsidized more. What's your basis for that claim?

Keep in mind roads are built and maintained by private entities, localities, states and the federal government. Only states and the feds and a few localities can impose gas taxes. That means the vast majority of roads are not supported by gas taxes, but by general sources of revenue. So it really does fail the user fee test.

As for fare evasion, its pretty simple. The lower the friction to use a system, the less evasion you'll have. You don't have to worry about fare evasion at all with a free bus for instance. No one worries about toll evasion on Connecticut Avenue, because there is no toll. Put up toll booths, and now you'll have to deal with toll evaders.

Let's get this straight- your basis for claiming that would less fare evasion if there was less "friction" is that there wouldn't be fare evasion if there were no fares.

Well duh. You'd also have less friction with annual or monthly passes. Same for having a universal transit card/app.

What do you think toll evasion would look like if you had to physically pay a toll every time you drove through a new jurisdiction?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

Gas taxes fund roads. It's gas isn't *exclusively* used in vehicles, but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that about 99% of it is.

There are people that think we should levy additional fees on electric vehicles because they don't use gas. That will probably happen some day, but we seem to still be in the situation where we want to encourage their use through subsidies.

Gas taxes remain very close to user fees.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea fare evasion would be less if public transit was subsidized more. What's your basis for that claim?

Keep in mind roads are built and maintained by private entities, localities, states and the federal government. Only states and the feds and a few localities can impose gas taxes. That means the vast majority of roads are not supported by gas taxes, but by general sources of revenue. So it really does fail the user fee test.

As for fare evasion, its pretty simple. The lower the friction to use a system, the less evasion you'll have. You don't have to worry about fare evasion at all with a free bus for instance. No one worries about toll evasion on Connecticut Avenue, because there is no toll. Put up toll booths, and now you'll have to deal with toll evaders.

Let's get this straight- your basis for claiming that would less fare evasion if there was less "friction" is that there wouldn't be fare evasion if there were no fares.

Well duh. You'd also have less friction with annual or monthly passes. Same for having a universal transit card/app.

What do you think toll evasion would look like if you had to physically pay a toll every time you drove through a new jurisdiction?

Where fare evasion predominantly happens, there is a universal transit card/app. And there is a monthly pass, but it doesn't really make sense when your SmarTrip balance in your card or phone can autofill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

Gas taxes fund roads. It's gas isn't *exclusively* used in vehicles, but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that about 99% of it is.

There are people that think we should levy additional fees on electric vehicles because they don't use gas. That will probably happen some day, but we seem to still be in the situation where we want to encourage their use through subsidies.

Gas taxes remain very close to user fees.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea fare evasion would be less if public transit was subsidized more. What's your basis for that claim?

Keep in mind roads are built and maintained by private entities, localities, states and the federal government. Only states and the feds and a few localities can impose gas taxes. That means the vast majority of roads are not supported by gas taxes, but by general sources of revenue. So it really does fail the user fee test.

As for fare evasion, its pretty simple. The lower the friction to use a system, the less evasion you'll have. You don't have to worry about fare evasion at all with a free bus for instance. No one worries about toll evasion on Connecticut Avenue, because there is no toll. Put up toll booths, and now you'll have to deal with toll evaders.

Let's get this straight- your basis for claiming that would less fare evasion if there was less "friction" is that there wouldn't be fare evasion if there were no fares.

Well duh. You'd also have less friction with annual or monthly passes. Same for having a universal transit card/app.

What do you think toll evasion would look like if you had to physically pay a toll every time you drove through a new jurisdiction?

Also, this sounds like a brilliant way for stores to stop theft. If they gave everything away for free, then there would be no more shoplifting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Gas taxes maintain the roads, build and maintain the bike lanes and heavily subsidize WMATA.

They are like super user fees.

Gas taxes don't come anywhere near covering the cost of road maintenance or road construction. To the extent that they are user fees at all, they are extremely inadequate user fees.

Nor do metro and bus fares. Does that mean those aren't user fees?

Metro fares are user fees. Bus fares are user fees. Tolls are user fees. Gas taxes are not user fees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Gas taxes maintain the roads, build and maintain the bike lanes and heavily subsidize WMATA.

They are like super user fees.

Gas taxes don't come anywhere near covering the cost of road maintenance or road construction. To the extent that they are user fees at all, they are extremely inadequate user fees.

Nor do metro and bus fares. Does that mean those aren't user fees?

Metro fares are user fees. Bus fares are user fees. Tolls are user fees. Gas taxes are not user fees.

They're all fees that grow proportionally with usage despite not fully paying for the service being provided.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

Gas taxes fund roads. It's gas isn't *exclusively* used in vehicles, but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that about 99% of it is.

There are people that think we should levy additional fees on electric vehicles because they don't use gas. That will probably happen some day, but we seem to still be in the situation where we want to encourage their use through subsidies.

Gas taxes remain very close to user fees.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea fare evasion would be less if public transit was subsidized more. What's your basis for that claim?

Keep in mind roads are built and maintained by private entities, localities, states and the federal government. Only states and the feds and a few localities can impose gas taxes. That means the vast majority of roads are not supported by gas taxes, but by general sources of revenue. So it really does fail the user fee test.

As for fare evasion, it’s pretty simple. The lower the friction to use a system, the less evasion you'll have. You don't have to worry about fare evasion at all with a free bus for instance. No one worries about toll evasion on Connecticut Avenue, because there is no toll. Put up toll booths, and now you'll have to deal with toll evaders.

This is a really dumb thing to argue.

Montgomery County, MD only budgets $20.5 million out of a $7.1 billion dollar budget for road maintenance.
https://apps.montgomerycountymd.gov/BASISOPERATING/Common/BudgetSnapshot.aspx?ID=50D&TYPE=DEPT

MoCo has an operating budget and a capital budget. Look up how much is spent on roads annually in the capital budget.

You’re stupid and just exposing yourself. Please do tell what roads are funded in the CIP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

They are not.

They're fees that are directly proportional to usage that are earmarked for maintenance of the service being used. That's awfully similar to a user fee.

How are gas taxes directly proportional to usage? If you have a very fuel-efficient vehicle that runs on gas, you can drive a lot while paying little in gas taxes. If you have a very fuel-inefficient vehicle that runs on gas, you have to pay a lot in gas taxes even if you only drive a little. If you have an electric vehicle, you can drive a gazillion miles while never paying a penny in gas taxes. If you have a gas-powered lawn mower, chain saw, generator, you pay gas taxes while never driving a single inch.

Did you realize there are various fuel tax refund programs for moderate and large scale off-road uses of fuel-powered equipment? Because they're meant to approximate user fees for roads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Gas taxes maintain the roads, build and maintain the bike lanes and heavily subsidize WMATA.

They are like super user fees.

Gas taxes don't come anywhere near covering the cost of road maintenance or road construction. To the extent that they are user fees at all, they are extremely inadequate user fees.

Nor do metro and bus fares. Does that mean those aren't user fees?

Metro fares are user fees. Bus fares are user fees. Tolls are user fees. Gas taxes are not user fees.

They're all fees that grow proportionally with usage despite not fully paying for the service being provided.

You keep saying that, or someone keeps saying that, but it's not so.

If we had a Vehicle Miles Traveled tax, that would be a user fee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Gas taxes maintain the roads, build and maintain the bike lanes and heavily subsidize WMATA.

They are like super user fees.

Gas taxes don't come anywhere near covering the cost of road maintenance or road construction. To the extent that they are user fees at all, they are extremely inadequate user fees.

Nor do metro and bus fares. Does that mean those aren't user fees?

Metro fares are user fees. Bus fares are user fees. Tolls are user fees. Gas taxes are not user fees.

They're all fees that grow proportionally with usage despite not fully paying for the service being provided.

You keep saying that, or someone keeps saying that, but it's not so.

If we had a Vehicle Miles Traveled tax, that would be a user fee.

Someone should explain how internal combustion engines work to you. My five year old probably could.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Gas taxes maintain the roads, build and maintain the bike lanes and heavily subsidize WMATA.

They are like super user fees.

Gas taxes don't come anywhere near covering the cost of road maintenance or road construction. To the extent that they are user fees at all, they are extremely inadequate user fees.

Nor do metro and bus fares. Does that mean those aren't user fees?

Metro fares are user fees. Bus fares are user fees. Tolls are user fees. Gas taxes are not user fees.

They're all fees that grow proportionally with usage despite not fully paying for the service being provided.

You keep saying that, or someone keeps saying that, but it's not so.

If we had a Vehicle Miles Traveled tax, that would be a user fee.

Someone should explain how internal combustion engines work to you. My five year old probably could.

I hope you model polite behavior for your five-year-old better in real life.

Meanwhile, people keep buying electric vehicles.