Wmata to target fare evaders on metro busses

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who is saying that it would be racist? The linked article makes no mention of such opposition.

https://ggwash.org/view/amp/69171

There is no thing that GGW won’t try to ruin. They seem allergic to taking the correct side in any argument.

Exactly!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

"People should pay the fare" and "WMATA should target people who don't pay the fare" are two different things.

User fees are good insofar as they encourage actions we want to encourage and/or discourage actions we want to discourage. The idea of congestion pricing in NYC is to discourage people going to lower Manhattan during peak hours by car; going into lower Manhattan by car during peak hours is an action we (should) want to discourage.

They are, but rules that aren't enforced aren't rules. When we have fares, it is absolutely appropriate to encorce them. Particularly when things deteriorate to a point where people flagrantly ignore them.

That's also an opportunity to think about whether we need them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

"People should pay the fare" and "WMATA should target people who don't pay the fare" are two different things.

User fees are good insofar as they encourage actions we want to encourage and/or discourage actions we want to discourage. The idea of congestion pricing in NYC is to discourage people going to lower Manhattan during peak hours by car; going into lower Manhattan by car during peak hours is an action we (should) want to discourage.

They are, but rules that aren't enforced aren't rules. When we have fares, it is absolutely appropriate to encorce them. Particularly when things deteriorate to a point where people flagrantly ignore them.

That's also an opportunity to think about whether we need them.

I'm not a fan of the thinking that says we should enforce rules, all rules, any rules, on grounds that they are rules.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

"People should pay the fare" and "WMATA should target people who don't pay the fare" are two different things.

User fees are good insofar as they encourage actions we want to encourage and/or discourage actions we want to discourage. The idea of congestion pricing in NYC is to discourage people going to lower Manhattan during peak hours by car; going into lower Manhattan by car during peak hours is an action we (should) want to discourage.

They are, but rules that aren't enforced aren't rules. When we have fares, it is absolutely appropriate to encorce them. Particularly when things deteriorate to a point where people flagrantly ignore them.

That's also an opportunity to think about whether we need them.

I'm not a fan of the thinking that says we should enforce rules, all rules, any rules, on grounds that they are rules.

If people are flagrantly breaking a rule on a large then that almost always means we should do something about. Enforce it. Change it. Get rid of it. Not just ignore it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

They are not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

"People should pay the fare" and "WMATA should target people who don't pay the fare" are two different things.

User fees are good insofar as they encourage actions we want to encourage and/or discourage actions we want to discourage. The idea of congestion pricing in NYC is to discourage people going to lower Manhattan during peak hours by car; going into lower Manhattan by car during peak hours is an action we (should) want to discourage.

They are, but rules that aren't enforced aren't rules. When we have fares, it is absolutely appropriate to encorce them. Particularly when things deteriorate to a point where people flagrantly ignore them.

That's also an opportunity to think about whether we need them.

I'm not a fan of the thinking that says we should enforce rules, all rules, any rules, on grounds that they are rules.

Then that means you simply don't believe in rules and you should just say that you're an anarchist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

Gas taxes fund roads. It's gas isn't *exclusively* used in vehicles, but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that about 99% of it is.

There are people that think we should levy additional fees on electric vehicles because they don't use gas. That will probably happen some day, but we seem to still be in the situation where we want to encourage their use through subsidies.

Gas taxes remain very close to user fees.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea fare evasion would be less if public transit was subsidized more. What's your basis for that claim?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

They are not.

They're fees that are directly proportional to usage that are earmarked for maintenance of the service being used. That's awfully similar to a user fee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

Gas taxes fund roads. It's gas isn't *exclusively* used in vehicles, but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that about 99% of it is.

There are people that think we should levy additional fees on electric vehicles because they don't use gas. That will probably happen some day, but we seem to still be in the situation where we want to encourage their use through subsidies.

Gas taxes remain very close to user fees.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea fare evasion would be less if public transit was subsidized more. What's your basis for that claim?

Keep in mind roads are built and maintained by private entities, localities, states and the federal government. Only states and the feds and a few localities can impose gas taxes. That means the vast majority of roads are not supported by gas taxes, but by general sources of revenue. So it really does fail the user fee test.

As for fare evasion, its pretty simple. The lower the friction to use a system, the less evasion you'll have. You don't have to worry about fare evasion at all with a free bus for instance. No one worries about toll evasion on Connecticut Avenue, because there is no toll. Put up toll booths, and now you'll have to deal with toll evaders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Electric and other such vehicles use the road without paying gas tax. These vehicles tend to also be far heavier than their gas equivalents so wear out the roads more quickly. People get gas for generators, mowers, dirt bikes, etc and pay gas tax on those things that don't use public roads. So its really not much of a user fee at all.

SmarTrip doesn't work on VRE, MARC any number of commuter buses and anywhere outside of the DC area. You can buy gas in DC, drive through Maryland into PA and so forth seamlessly without paying a single toll or other user fee.

The point of this being that the perceived ease and freedom of getting around by car is actually the result of government policy to make things as easy as possible for drivers while not so much for transit users. You wouldn't have anywhere near the issue with fare evasion if you funded transit in an equivalent manner as car travel. You would also get a much more pleasant experience and better functioning transit.

Gas taxes fund roads. It's gas isn't *exclusively* used in vehicles, but you seem to be conveniently ignoring that about 99% of it is.

There are people that think we should levy additional fees on electric vehicles because they don't use gas. That will probably happen some day, but we seem to still be in the situation where we want to encourage their use through subsidies.

Gas taxes remain very close to user fees.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea fare evasion would be less if public transit was subsidized more. What's your basis for that claim?

Keep in mind roads are built and maintained by private entities, localities, states and the federal government. Only states and the feds and a few localities can impose gas taxes. That means the vast majority of roads are not supported by gas taxes, but by general sources of revenue. So it really does fail the user fee test.

As for fare evasion, its pretty simple. The lower the friction to use a system, the less evasion you'll have. You don't have to worry about fare evasion at all with a free bus for instance. No one worries about toll evasion on Connecticut Avenue, because there is no toll. Put up toll booths, and now you'll have to deal with toll evaders.

Let's get this straight- your basis for claiming that would less fare evasion if there was less "friction" is that there wouldn't be fare evasion if there were no fares.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Gas taxes maintain the roads, build and maintain the bike lanes and heavily subsidize WMATA.

They are like super user fees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They could try to put fare boxes on the outside. Maybe like scan your card or insert money, and then the doors open. It would slow things down and suck for customers that were already paying.

Imagine if drivers had to get out of their cars and scan a payment card every time they wanted to get on a road. How much would they complain? Why do we make it seamless for them to drive long distances, cross jurisdictions and "transfer" between roads but make it a real expense and chore to bus riders to do the same?

If drivers evade a toll, then they get a bill automatically sent to their house. If you don't pay to get on the bus, then you can't get on (the doors don't open0.

I can drive all over DC and never use a toll road. Why shouldn't I have the same no-pay option when I take a bus?

You're still paying gas taxes.

And bus riders pay the sales and income taxes that fund public transit. We realize that user fees are terrible for drivers, but for some reason insist on them for transit. We should either have no user fees for transportation, or all transportation users should have to pay a user fee.

User fees are terrible for drivers? You might want to tell that to New York democrats.

I think we should be encouraging people to ride public transit. Perhaps even making it free. But until and unless we do that, people should pay the fare.

That's pretty much my point. Look at the way drivers freak out the second they might have to pay a user fee. They expect to be able to take an entire journey without having to make a payment. It is a large part of why driving is so popular and why people associate it with "freedom." Driving would plummet if you had to have a transponder to ride on Interstates, then purchase a pass to ride on a state highway, then scan some payment fob to get on a county road, etc...

But for some reason we think its perfectly fine for transit users to carry multiple payment methods and constantly scan every time we transfer.

The nickel and dime'ing of transit is a big part of what limits its adoption.

I don't understand this position. Gas taxes are nearly equivalent to user fees. You pay based on how much you drive.

Also, where does SmarTrip not work?

Gas taxes maintain the roads, build and maintain the bike lanes and heavily subsidize WMATA.

They are like super user fees.

Gas taxes don't come anywhere near covering the cost of road maintenance or road construction. To the extent that they are user fees at all, they are extremely inadequate user fees.