Amazon RTO 5 days a week

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read about the Amazon RTO order and think it’s great. It’s high time the federal government got this done too.

The Federal government already has a massive hiring problem. Telework flexibility only helps them hire people.

No - not true. There are not a lot of Federal govt jobs open in THIS AREA. (DC)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How will they ENFORCE this? Lots of barking from these companies about RTO but zero bite. Actually enforcing these stupid rules would create a huge imposition on management to fairly track, open the company up to lawsuits, etc.

Anytime a company mandates RTO but includes “exceptions,” you know it’s BS. The only truly genuine on-site policies are those with zero exceptions (like my grandfather’s factory had). If you’re sick or need to stay home, TAKE LEAVE — that’s what it’s there for.

Because you have to badge in. In fact, people were coffee badging--badging in and getting a coffee and then leaving--but they tracked that too and said you had to be there for at least 2 hours. If you don't meet the requirements your manager gets notified and then it becomes their problem to have to do something about it or THEY will get in trouble. Even if they could care less.

They might also be able to track your computer or work phone. A colleague put someone on a PIP because they signed in but used a mouse mover or something similar for most of the day. They basically only worked for a couple/ few hours. The company/ IT had proof (not Amazon).

The fact people don’t think your company knows what you are doing and when you are working and when you aren’t is crazy. Most of the time people aren’t tracking it, but if there’s a flag they will look into it. Hence the RTO in many places.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Amazon had always been the place for people who can't get jobs somewhere else. Lowest paying, lowest benefit, most abusive management in Big Tech.

They thrive on desperate people (mostly immigrant new grads) who are willing to overwork themselves until they find something better or get laid off.

Not necessarily true. Husband made the jump from another FAANG I think during pandemic when hiring was going crazy and got a big bump in salary after getting passed over for the usual politics. Not because he was a bad performer. He was not.

He’s still making quite a lot more than he was making at his previous FAANG company, which is supposed to treat their employees amazingly but actually was a dysfunctional sshow.

Honestly, they are all kind of evil, but those golden handcuffs! It makes it hard to go to other places. He’s worked at a few. I’d say Microsoft was the nicest and chillest but paid the least. Amazon seems to be the roughest in terms of office politics.

I remind him, and he knows, that he makes way more than most people, and that is a combination of talent and ambition and luck. Amazon is evil but he still is getting paid a lot of money and his work life balance is not bad, as some people here are saying.

op would YOU want to go into the office 5 days a week?
if it were me and this happened to dh i'd encourage him to find a new job. He has one life to live, be supportive.

I DON'T want that. He has been looking for the last year and a half. He's not in his 20s and makes a lot of money. It's never been like this before. He used to get offers all the time. I mean, it's a bit like the world's smallest violin. He makes a lot of money compared to 99% of the population, but the only places he can really keep making that kind of money is at other FAANGs, and they are just not hiring for people at his level. He could get a programming job tomorrow, but with a 50% pay cut. He's also ambitious and wants to level up--no vertical moves because he's done that before and then you're just starting over. It's a game.

At his level, promotions seem to be almost entirely political and done for reasons that make no logical sense. They will bring someone in from a totally different city who knows nothing about the team because they're supposed to be a "rock star" based on....I don't know? Gossip? What some other director says who someone play golf with? This is not just Amazon. It's all of them. And then the person is okay if you're lucky. I'm just a bystander, but I can say my husband is good at what he does. It doesn't seem to be based on actual performance. They are all kind of evil. Amazon is just more evil right now.

If I were you I would start budgeting and cutting costs. Idk I think things will change and there will be large layoffs or firings after this RTO. The more you make the more likely to be laid off.

I have a relative same thing. They hit the ceiling at two FAANGs (or equivalent) without being the CEO or CFO, etc. there was nowhere for them to go and when layoffs came that was that. Luckily both times they received a 6-12 month severance but they had been at one company 25+ years and the latest one 6 years. Like so many others their expenses are huge. They have kids in college and graduate school and pay both tuitions plus their children living in fancy apartments in major cities. They could retire and have a great life, but they don’t want to significantly cut expenses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How will they ENFORCE this? Lots of barking from these companies about RTO but zero bite. Actually enforcing these stupid rules would create a huge imposition on management to fairly track, open the company up to lawsuits, etc.

Anytime a company mandates RTO but includes “exceptions,” you know it’s BS. The only truly genuine on-site policies are those with zero exceptions (like my grandfather’s factory had). If you’re sick or need to stay home, TAKE LEAVE — that’s what it’s there for.

Because you have to badge in. In fact, people were coffee badging--badging in and getting a coffee and then leaving--but they tracked that too and said you had to be there for at least 2 hours. If you don't meet the requirements your manager gets notified and then it becomes their problem to have to do something about it or THEY will get in trouble. Even if they could care less.

They might also be able to track your computer or work phone. A colleague put someone on a PIP because they signed in but used a mouse mover or something similar for most of the day. They basically only worked for a couple/ few hours. The company/ IT had proof (not Amazon).

The fact people don’t think your company knows what you are doing and when you are working and when you aren’t is crazy. Most of the time people aren’t tracking it, but if there’s a flag they will look into it. Hence the RTO in many places.

The amount of relevant computer work done in office isn't great either. More hours, but more hours not working.

- someone who reviews logs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read about the Amazon RTO order and think it’s great. It’s high time the federal government got this done too.

The Federal government already has a massive hiring problem. Telework flexibility only helps them hire people.

No - not true. There are not a lot of Federal govt jobs open in THIS AREA. (DC)

My agency hires a lot of specialized people and they’re all remote in other states, though our actual office is here. I doubt they would be able to fill the positions from the local commuting area.

[Anonymous]

they gotta fill up the giant poop building

[Anonymous]

They're getting rid of the bloat. They'll be able to see at what headcount they can operate efficiently and effectively.

I work for a small company now and it is impossible to coast. Even though I work full time from home, even one afternoon of slacking will put me behind.

When I worked at a large office, there was SO much waste. An internal audit found an employee who was no longer with the company but who had been paid for 4 months after leaving. There were days when I'd log in for work and be totally finished by 10 am. I'd then just have to fake being busy for hours. It was mind-numbing. But asking for more work put you on the boss' radar and meant you got let go soon after. I saw that happen multiple times. Including with a woman who went on extended leave to care for her ailing mother and was then let go about a week after returning. Her manager realized her tasks were easily distributed among 3 others in her department and was left questioning what she did to fill her days since those tasks were so easily and quickly done.

[Anonymous]

It’s hard to understand people. Job hunters apply for a job and claim that they’ll do what the company needs in exchange for pay and benefits. Once hired, the employee then wants to dictate to their employer how and where they work. Why do they think they have that right?

If the employee doesn’t like the employer’s rules, they need to work somewhere else, not complain about their employer. Employees want to have their cake and eat it too - they want their employer to assume all the risk of the business, but share in the upside, even if they’re half-a**ing it from home. If these employees owned their own business and employees treated them the same way, their eyes would be opened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How will they ENFORCE this? Lots of barking from these companies about RTO but zero bite. Actually enforcing these stupid rules would create a huge imposition on management to fairly track, open the company up to lawsuits, etc.

Anytime a company mandates RTO but includes “exceptions,” you know it’s BS. The only truly genuine on-site policies are those with zero exceptions (like my grandfather’s factory had). If you’re sick or need to stay home, TAKE LEAVE — that’s what it’s there for.

Because you have to badge in. In fact, people were coffee badging--badging in and getting a coffee and then leaving--but they tracked that too and said you had to be there for at least 2 hours. If you don't meet the requirements your manager gets notified and then it becomes their problem to have to do something about it or THEY will get in trouble. Even if they could care less.

They might also be able to track your computer or work phone. A colleague put someone on a PIP because they signed in but used a mouse mover or something similar for most of the day. They basically only worked for a couple/ few hours. The company/ IT had proof (not Amazon).

The fact people don’t think your company knows what you are doing and when you are working and when you aren’t is crazy. Most of the time people aren’t tracking it, but if there’s a flag they will look into it. Hence the RTO in many places.

Of course, the big silly assumption here is that you’re not “working” unless you’re actively using a computer. Ever heard of printing stuff out and reading it in hardcopy? I’d god forbid THINKING and planning on a piece of paper?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard to understand people. Job hunters apply for a job and claim that they’ll do what the company needs in exchange for pay and benefits. Once hired, the employee then wants to dictate to their employer how and where they work. Why do they think they have that right?

If the employee doesn’t like the employer’s rules, they need to work somewhere else, not complain about their employer. Employees want to have their cake and eat it too - they want their employer to assume all the risk of the business, but share in the upside, even if they’re half-a**ing it from home. If these employees owned their own business and employees treated them the same way, their eyes would be opened.

Did you drop your pacifier from the high chair?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How will they ENFORCE this? Lots of barking from these companies about RTO but zero bite. Actually enforcing these stupid rules would create a huge imposition on management to fairly track, open the company up to lawsuits, etc.

Anytime a company mandates RTO but includes “exceptions,” you know it’s BS. The only truly genuine on-site policies are those with zero exceptions (like my grandfather’s factory had). If you’re sick or need to stay home, TAKE LEAVE — that’s what it’s there for.

Because you have to badge in. In fact, people were coffee badging--badging in and getting a coffee and then leaving--but they tracked that too and said you had to be there for at least 2 hours. If you don't meet the requirements your manager gets notified and then it becomes their problem to have to do something about it or THEY will get in trouble. Even if they could care less.

They might also be able to track your computer or work phone. A colleague put someone on a PIP because they signed in but used a mouse mover or something similar for most of the day. They basically only worked for a couple/ few hours. The company/ IT had proof (not Amazon).

The fact people don’t think your company knows what you are doing and when you are working and when you aren’t is crazy. Most of the time people aren’t tracking it, but if there’s a flag they will look into it. Hence the RTO in many places.

Of course, the big silly assumption here is that you’re not “working” unless you’re actively using a computer. Ever heard of printing stuff out and reading it in hardcopy? I’d god forbid THINKING and planning on a piece of paper?

lol

I think best over a 3 martini lunch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Amazon had always been the place for people who can't get jobs somewhere else. Lowest paying, lowest benefit, most abusive management in Big Tech.

They thrive on desperate people (mostly immigrant new grads) who are willing to overwork themselves until they find something better or get laid off.

Not necessarily true. Husband made the jump from another FAANG I think during pandemic when hiring was going crazy and got a big bump in salary after getting passed over for the usual politics. Not because he was a bad performer. He was not.

He’s still making quite a lot more than he was making at his previous FAANG company, which is supposed to treat their employees amazingly but actually was a dysfunctional sshow.

Honestly, they are all kind of evil, but those golden handcuffs! It makes it hard to go to other places. He’s worked at a few. I’d say Microsoft was the nicest and chillest but paid the least. Amazon seems to be the roughest in terms of office politics.

I remind him, and he knows, that he makes way more than most people, and that is a combination of talent and ambition and luck. Amazon is evil but he still is getting paid a lot of money and his work life balance is not bad, as some people here are saying.

op would YOU want to go into the office 5 days a week?
if it were me and this happened to dh i'd encourage him to find a new job. He has one life to live, be supportive.

I DON'T want that. He has been looking for the last year and a half. He's not in his 20s and makes a lot of money. It's never been like this before. He used to get offers all the time. I mean, it's a bit like the world's smallest violin. He makes a lot of money compared to 99% of the population, but the only places he can really keep making that kind of money is at other FAANGs, and they are just not hiring for people at his level. He could get a programming job tomorrow, but with a 50% pay cut. He's also ambitious and wants to level up--no vertical moves because he's done that before and then you're just starting over. It's a game.

At his level, promotions seem to be almost entirely political and done for reasons that make no logical sense. They will bring someone in from a totally different city who knows nothing about the team because they're supposed to be a "rock star" based on....I don't know? Gossip? What some other director says who someone play golf with? This is not just Amazon. It's all of them. And then the person is okay if you're lucky. I'm just a bystander, but I can say my husband is good at what he does. It doesn't seem to be based on actual performance. They are all kind of evil. Amazon is just more evil right now.

If I were you I would start budgeting and cutting costs. Idk I think things will change and there will be large layoffs or firings after this RTO. The more you make the more likely to be laid off.

I have a relative same thing. They hit the ceiling at two FAANGs (or equivalent) without being the CEO or CFO, etc. there was nowhere for them to go and when layoffs came that was that. Luckily both times they received a 6-12 month severance but they had been at one company 25+ years and the latest one 6 years. Like so many others their expenses are huge. They have kids in college and graduate school and pay both tuitions plus their children living in fancy apartments in major cities. They could retire and have a great life, but they don’t want to significantly cut expenses.

They already announced they are firing 15% of management. I think my husband is ok (because of specific stuff I'm not going to reveal here). But they are definitely laying off managers. They already said so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s hard to understand people. Job hunters apply for a job and claim that they’ll do what the company needs in exchange for pay and benefits. Once hired, the employee then wants to dictate to their employer how and where they work. Why do they think they have that right?

If the employee doesn’t like the employer’s rules, they need to work somewhere else, not complain about their employer. Employees want to have their cake and eat it too - they want their employer to assume all the risk of the business, but share in the upside, even if they’re half-a**ing it from home. If these employees owned their own business and employees treated them the same way, their eyes would be opened.

Usually if you're hired as a remote worker, you don't expect your employer to decide you first must come in to the office 3 days a week and then 5. The expectation should work both ways. They hired lots of people they knew could not come into the office 3 or 5 days a week and told them explicitly they wouldn't have to do that. If you like in North Carolina and you're hired as a remote worker and the closest office is Arlington, that seems rather unfair to just change the expectations of your employment willy nilly.

[Anonymous]

It is a hire to fire model. This is great as no severance or unemployment claims

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Amazon had always been the place for people who can't get jobs somewhere else. Lowest paying, lowest benefit, most abusive management in Big Tech.

They thrive on desperate people (mostly immigrant new grads) who are willing to overwork themselves until they find something better or get laid off.

Not necessarily true. Husband made the jump from another FAANG I think during pandemic when hiring was going crazy and got a big bump in salary after getting passed over for the usual politics. Not because he was a bad performer. He was not.

He’s still making quite a lot more than he was making at his previous FAANG company, which is supposed to treat their employees amazingly but actually was a dysfunctional sshow.

Honestly, they are all kind of evil, but those golden handcuffs! It makes it hard to go to other places. He’s worked at a few. I’d say Microsoft was the nicest and chillest but paid the least. Amazon seems to be the roughest in terms of office politics.

I remind him, and he knows, that he makes way more than most people, and that is a combination of talent and ambition and luck. Amazon is evil but he still is getting paid a lot of money and his work life balance is not bad, as some people here are saying.

I assume you don’t work. That’s the key to Amazon. It works you like big law but pays way way less.

I work but don't make NEARLY as much money. The money I make is basically "fun" money comparatively. But I have followed his career, and I do think that probably depends on the team. He really doesn't have bad work/life balance. He used to be in sales, and there was more freedom but more stress with quotas. He is definitely 9-5, and that's with time to go out for a walk or do errands, etc....It's not much different than the other FAANGs he worked at in terms of work/life balance. None have really been bad. Maybe it's the team.

That is not a normal schedule at all. Mine works at about 7:30 or so and varies on when it’s over between 6-7 usually sometimes with later calls and always checking in things.