St Marys versus St Louis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did all the 8th graders get into their high school of choice? If so, what’s the problem?

I heard 15 boys are going to Gonzaga next year. It doesn’t seem like there is a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did all the 8th graders get into their high school of choice? If so, what’s the problem?

I heard 15 boys are going to Gonzaga next year. It doesn’t seem like there is a problem.

Which is normal for BSSM. A lot have older brothers there already, with active parents.

It is worth mentioning getting into high school doesn’t reflect what happened in 8th grade! There was very little learning, especially in English, Spanish and Science in 8th grade this year.

[Anonymous]

"You want fresh grads without education degrees teaching middle school? 40k is too low to get anyone who actually needs the income (i.e. professional teachers), so you get you unqualified aids being promoted"

Fresh grads aren't the very best option, but the point is casting a wider net and getting a look at more candidates.

In some cases professional teachers with new education degrees who actually need the income would be worse options than UVA graduates in English or Math who don't need to worry about the 15% difference in pay between parochial and public. Education degrees nowadays mostly train people to be political activists who want to undermine the family. That's counterproductive training for working at St. Mary's.

A lot of people with new education degrees are very similar to the promoted aides. They are just a year or two older and not much more impressive. In many cases you'd be better off with a smart UVA English major teaching a class than a less impressive education degree holder. Teaching best practices are much more available online these days. (No offense to any education degree holders. I'm just saying the degree isn't what it used to be.)

Either way, the diocese needs more people in the interview funnel and then they can pick the best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the problem with parochial. While they are better than public schools, they have one thing in common with public, which is a sort of monopoly status. There is one parochial option in each geographic area, and that's pretty much the only option. So they don't really feel the pressure for continuous improvement.

It's a shame, because St. Mary's easily has the opportunity to be the best school around bar none. All the publics and all the privates in NOVA and DC have become insane tampons-in-the-boys-room type places. And behavior problems are increasing and allowed to persist, because there's an unofficial policy not to discipline members of marginalized groups or children of rich parents. St. Mary's is comparatively free of all those problems.

All St. Mary's has to do is hustle! They have to say to themselves, we can be the best K-8 school in the state. The very fact of being a sane Catholic school already gives them a huge advantage over the competition. They have an amazing population of families, highly educated, professional, nice, committed. They have great kids. And they do have some great faculty and staff, just not quite enough!
Now all they have to do is figure out how to hire, develop, and retain the absolute best quality faculty and staff they can.

I don't think the low pay is that big of a problem. It doesn't help, but it's not an excuse for having less impressive teachers. Yes public pays more, but public is a mess these days. If you are called to teaching, you're not usually in it for the money anyway. And if you are a traditional person or a religious person who wants to teach, you will not fit in with most of your colleagues at most publics or privates in NOVA or DC. St. Mary's should have its pick of the kind of teachers it would want to hire anyway.

But for some reason they don't love hustling. They don't like criticism, so they won't admit problems. They don't feel a sense of competition because they are the only game in (old) town. And I think that they (justifiably) feel holy because of the good work they do in faith formation, but they rest on the laurels of that a little bit. I suspect that if you asked the administration or the rector about teacher quality, teacher hiring, and teacher retention, they would quickly steer the conversation to their good work in faith formation. And it IS good work, but it's not a relevant answer to the question "why aren't we recruiting, developing, and retaining enough great teachers?"

Very well said. It also doesn’t help that the leader of the school is the purported agent of God — kinda makes you immune from criticism and probably a bit sure of yourself and your judgment!!

[Anonymous]

"I don't think the low pay is that big of a problem. It doesn't help, but it's not an excuse for having less impressive teachers. Yes public pays more, but public is a mess these days. If you are called to teaching, you're not usually in it for the money anyway. And if you are a traditional person or a religious person who wants to teach, you will not fit in with most of your colleagues at most publics or privates in NOVA or DC. St. Mary's should have its pick of the kind of teachers it would want to hire anyway."

This makes sense. Another advantage Catholic schools have is that the teachers are much more likely to be married than public school teachers, and to have another income in the household. That more than outweighs the modestly higher public school salaries.

[Anonymous]

"It also doesn’t help that the leader of the school is the purported agent of God — kinda makes you immune from criticism and probably a bit sure of yourself and your judgment!!"

God calls us to be humble. So if this is true, he should get over it. The right attitude should always be "how can I make this better?" and almost never "nailed it!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"You want fresh grads without education degrees teaching middle school? 40k is too low to get anyone who actually needs the income (i.e. professional teachers), so you get you unqualified aids being promoted"

Fresh grads aren't the very best option, but the point is casting a wider net and getting a look at more candidates.

In some cases professional teachers with new education degrees who actually need the income would be worse options than UVA graduates in English or Math who don't need to worry about the 15% difference in pay between parochial and public. Education degrees nowadays mostly train people to be political activists who want to undermine the family. That's counterproductive training for working at St. Mary's.

A lot of people with new education degrees are very similar to the promoted aides. They are just a year or two older and not much more impressive. In many cases you'd be better off with a smart UVA English major teaching a class than a less impressive education degree holder. Teaching best practices are much more available online these days. (No offense to any education degree holders. I'm just saying the degree isn't what it used to be.)

Either way, the diocese needs more people in the interview funnel and then they can pick the best.

So you want dilettantes? UVA grads can do better than making 40k a year teaching middle schoolers. SAHMs are not going to teach middle school, they'll teach ES. You're left with people who don't have better options

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I don't think the low pay is that big of a problem. It doesn't help, but it's not an excuse for having less impressive teachers. Yes public pays more, but public is a mess these days. If you are called to teaching, you're not usually in it for the money anyway. And if you are a traditional person or a religious person who wants to teach, you will not fit in with most of your colleagues at most publics or privates in NOVA or DC. St. Mary's should have its pick of the kind of teachers it would want to hire anyway."

This makes sense. Another advantage Catholic schools have is that the teachers are much more likely to be married than public school teachers, and to have another income in the household. That more than outweighs the modestly higher public school salaries.

For a teacher who doesn't want to deal with public school classrooms, and doesn't need the paycheck, why teach at St Marys when SSSAS and Alexandria Country Day have even smaller classes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't think the low pay is that big of a problem. It doesn't help, but it's not an excuse for having less impressive teachers. Yes public pays more, but public is a mess these days. If you are called to teaching, you're not usually in it for the money anyway. And if you are a traditional person or a religious person who wants to teach, you will not fit in with most of your colleagues at most publics or privates in NOVA or DC. St. Mary's should have its pick of the kind of teachers it would want to hire anyway."

This makes sense. Another advantage Catholic schools have is that the teachers are much more likely to be married than public school teachers, and to have another income in the household. That more than outweighs the modestly higher public school salaries.

For a teacher who doesn't want to deal with public school classrooms, and doesn't need the paycheck, why teach at St Marys when SSSAS and Alexandria Country Day have even smaller classes?

Wasn’t going to chime in, but this one is too obvious to pass up.

Clearing throat…maybe they’re Catholic?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I don't think the low pay is that big of a problem. It doesn't help, but it's not an excuse for having less impressive teachers. Yes public pays more, but public is a mess these days. If you are called to teaching, you're not usually in it for the money anyway. And if you are a traditional person or a religious person who wants to teach, you will not fit in with most of your colleagues at most publics or privates in NOVA or DC. St. Mary's should have its pick of the kind of teachers it would want to hire anyway."

This makes sense. Another advantage Catholic schools have is that the teachers are much more likely to be married than public school teachers, and to have another income in the household. That more than outweighs the modestly higher public school salaries.

You can't brush aside the low pay so easily.

New grads are likely single and need the extra income.
Older teachers can likely find a better paying and more flexible job outside a parochial school.

A calling doesn't help your own kids as inflation causes prices to rise everywhere.

[Anonymous]

The low pay is certainly an issue. But it's a tough one to solve, and it's not the only issue. My sense is that the diocese isn't getting a look at enough good candidates because they aren't casting a wide enough net or being proactive enough. There seems to be a pattern of scrambling in the summer to grab whoever stumbled upon a job listing.

The most relevant difference in parochial vs. public compensation is actually in the long-term benefits/pension etc., which young people discount heavily and probably won't stay in public school teaching long enough to collect. And the average salary difference is about 15%. The difference is even smaller for new teachers. The public school teachers' unions are very into seniority, a longer-tenured teachers get paid a lot more than starting teachers. And the unions like to be able to cite low first year salaries when demanding raises from the government.

So choosing public over parochial only gets a new teacher a few thousand extra dollars. For worse students, worse parents, worse bosses, worse colleagues, behavior problems, and an a student-unfriendly political mission (unpack privilege, close gaps, and celebrate Pride).

Some people want to be a part of that and some don't. I'm not sure there's much overlap in the applicant pools.

[Anonymous]

Its clearly a management issue and squarely at the feet of the principal and the rector. They didn't just lose teachers. They also lost administration employees, including the well liked extended day and business office director. While I agree that they need to improve hiring, pay teachers better and offer better training and support, that is only part of the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The low pay is certainly an issue. But it's a tough one to solve, and it's not the only issue. My sense is that the diocese isn't getting a look at enough good candidates because they aren't casting a wide enough net or being proactive enough. There seems to be a pattern of scrambling in the summer to grab whoever stumbled upon a job listing.

The most relevant difference in parochial vs. public compensation is actually in the long-term benefits/pension etc., which young people discount heavily and probably won't stay in public school teaching long enough to collect. And the average salary difference is about 15%. The difference is even smaller for new teachers. The public school teachers' unions are very into seniority, a longer-tenured teachers get paid a lot more than starting teachers. And the unions like to be able to cite low first year salaries when demanding raises from the government.

So choosing public over parochial only gets a new teacher a few thousand extra dollars. For worse students, worse parents, worse bosses, worse colleagues, behavior problems, and an a student-unfriendly political mission (unpack privilege, close gaps, and celebrate Pride).

Some people want to be a part of that and some don't. I'm not sure there's much overlap in the applicant pools.

Considering some of the best teachers at my daughter's parochial school have left for public recently, and a teacher at ours was asked to resign this year for THROWING something at a student, we can have a frank discussion about the issues at St. Mary's without broadly disparaging public school teachers and families.

[Anonymous]

Fair point. If you are losing administrative employees, that might be more of a reflection on management.

So what's the problem? It doesn't seem like the new principal is a tyrant/mean boss. If he lacks "the vision thing" or "great leadership," that wouldn't necessarily translate into rapid turnover. So what is it?

Some of this thread has made it sound like the principal is a yes man for the rector. Does the staff feel like the principal isn't standing up for them with the rector? Does the staff have some tension or disagreement with the rector? The rector has been there for a while, with multiple principals. He seems good and committed to the school.

So we're back to the original question. Are people leaving just because that's how it goes in education these days? Or is management to blame? And if so, what are they doing wrong?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the problem with parochial. While they are better than public schools, they have one thing in common with public, which is a sort of monopoly status. There is one parochial option in each geographic area, and that's pretty much the only option. So they don't really feel the pressure for continuous improvement.

It's a shame, because St. Mary's easily has the opportunity to be the best school around bar none. All the publics and all the privates in NOVA and DC have become insane tampons-in-the-boys-room type places. And behavior problems are increasing and allowed to persist, because there's an unofficial policy not to discipline members of marginalized groups or children of rich parents. St. Mary's is comparatively free of all those problems.

All St. Mary's has to do is hustle! They have to say to themselves, we can be the best K-8 school in the state. The very fact of being a sane Catholic school already gives them a huge advantage over the competition. They have an amazing population of families, highly educated, professional, nice, committed. They have great kids. And they do have some great faculty and staff, just not quite enough!
Now all they have to do is figure out how to hire, develop, and retain the absolute best quality faculty and staff they can.

I don't think the low pay is that big of a problem. It doesn't help, but it's not an excuse for having less impressive teachers. Yes public pays more, but public is a mess these days. If you are called to teaching, you're not usually in it for the money anyway. And if you are a traditional person or a religious person who wants to teach, you will not fit in with most of your colleagues at most publics or privates in NOVA or DC. St. Mary's should have its pick of the kind of teachers it would want to hire anyway.

But for some reason they don't love hustling. They don't like criticism, so they won't admit problems. They don't feel a sense of competition because they are the only game in (old) town. And I think that they (justifiably) feel holy because of the good work they do in faith formation, but they rest on the laurels of that a little bit. I suspect that if you asked the administration or the rector about teacher quality, teacher hiring, and teacher retention, they would quickly steer the conversation to their good work in faith formation. And it IS good work, but it's not a relevant answer to the question "why aren't we recruiting, developing, and retaining enough great teachers?"

You sound like you'd be happier sending your kid to Trinity Christian than parochial school