St Marys versus St Louis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The current principal of St Mary’s lacks leadership, so I don’t blame teachers for leaving. The school needs to get the middle school under control ASAP.

Ultimately, it’s the church’s Rector’s responsibility (and fault). He, not the principal, controls the school. Surprised that the Diocese hasn’t noticed the chaos and stepped in yet.

+1 Pastors control the parish and the school. If principals stand up to the pastors, they can be consequences which leads to weak leadership from principals. The priest at St. Mary's is very connected in the diocese and puts unreasonable expectations on the school.

PP (or anyone else who knows the answer)— please explain. How is the Pastor so connected and if so why isn’t he fixing the school but letting it turn to ruins? It can’t be because there is a waitlist, as families are leaving. And what unreasonable expectations?

It sounds like the principal needs to grow a backbone and stick up for the students. As a school should always be focused on the students.

In the Diocese of Arlington, pastors sign the employment contracts. They have the ultimate say in many matters including student disciplinary matters. Administrators have to choose the battles they fight with the pastors. This particular pastor wants students to go to the Basilica for Mass especially during Lent as an example. Many have tried to find alternatives that were less disruptive to instruction, but he was insistent that he wanted students to walk to Mass.

There is a lot of discontent among parents. Ideally, the pastor and principal should be working together to retain qualified staff and attract good teachers. Their plans for improvement should be communicated to parents. The pastor may be thinking that the large number of applications for Kindergarten will make up for losses in middle school.

What does this mean? The entire school is falling apart because the pastor wants the students to walk to church during Lent? There has to be more to the story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The current principal of St Mary’s lacks leadership, so I don’t blame teachers for leaving. The school needs to get the middle school under control ASAP.

Ultimately, it’s the church’s Rector’s responsibility (and fault). He, not the principal, controls the school. Surprised that the Diocese hasn’t noticed the chaos and stepped in yet.

+1 Pastors control the parish and the school. If principals stand up to the pastors, they can be consequences which leads to weak leadership from principals. The priest at St. Mary's is very connected in the diocese and puts unreasonable expectations on the school.

PP (or anyone else who knows the answer)— please explain. How is the Pastor so connected and if so why isn’t he fixing the school but letting it turn to ruins? It can’t be because there is a waitlist, as families are leaving. And what unreasonable expectations?

It sounds like the principal needs to grow a backbone and stick up for the students. As a school should always be focused on the students.

In the Diocese of Arlington, pastors sign the employment contracts. They have the ultimate say in many matters including student disciplinary matters. Administrators have to choose the battles they fight with the pastors. This particular pastor wants students to go to the Basilica for Mass especially during Lent as an example. Many have tried to find alternatives that were less disruptive to instruction, but he was insistent that he wanted students to walk to Mass.

There is a lot of discontent among parents. Ideally, the pastor and principal should be working together to retain qualified staff and attract good teachers. Their plans for improvement should be communicated to parents. The pastor may be thinking that the large number of applications for Kindergarten will make up for losses in middle school.

What does this mean? The entire school is falling apart because the pastor wants the students to walk to church during Lent? There has to be more to the story.

Former parent here. I'll do my best to answer. This year, a few teachers left middle school in the middle of the year. There did not seem to be a plan to replace the teachers who left. Also about 75% of middle school teachers left after the 2022-2023 school year. There is going to be difficulty whenever there is this much turnover in one school year. While the school did demote the AP who was head of middle school at the time. However, that person was still given a job at the school. My understanding is that these changes were not communicated to parents.

The school experienced mid-year resignations when my DC was there, but a substitute was put in place and the change was communicated to parents.

[Anonymous]

The issue was the former head of the middle school? That personnel change has nothing to do with this chaos that happened THIS year in the middle school. That would fall on the principal.

If there were that many new teachers (75%) they should have been supported properly with trainings and instructional coaching, which should be a standard for all new teachers to the school. Did all of those new teachers stay—no, they didn’t, with some leaving mid year. That is a hiring problem. That is a support problem from the instructional coach.

[Anonymous]

I'm happy to hear from a former parent! I'm trying to piece all this together.

Can you please say more about that 75% attrition in the MS faculty after 2022-2023? What caused that exodus? I had heard rumors that someone there wanted the principal job and didn't get it? And that they (and their supporters) left in disappointment/protest? Is that right?
Is that different than this AP demotion you mention?

In terms of more recent turnover, the big question is whether this is normal in a time of turmoil for the teaching profession (post-Covid) in Catholic school which doesn't pay as well as public, or whether mistakes are being made by the administration/pastor/diocese/hiring committees/etc.? Is this par for the course or a sign of a problem? And if it's a problem, how can they correct it?

And if the turnover is unavoidable, what should they be doing better in terms of hiring and support/training for teachers?

[Anonymous]

The blame doesn’t lie with anyone but the principal. Not former teachers (who didn’t leave out of protest or sour grapes, what a terrible rumor to spread. Shameful!), not hiring shortages, but the current PRINCIPAL.

Please stop placing blame on former staff members when the problem is with the current administration. Nothing will be solved in the middle school if blame is being placed elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

What is so wrong with the middle school?

[Anonymous]

I am confused - what did the former principal do?

[Anonymous]

I'm not placing the blame anywhere, I'm trying to figure out what's going on because I don't know. It sounds like you do know, so it would be great it you could share what you know.

I'm not spreading rumors, I'm trying to ask direct questions. I thought that one of the departed middle school faculty members was a candidate for principal.
And that she and some of the others who left a year ago were disappointed that she didn't get the job. Is that not true?

I also agree with you that that a departed group of former teachers is obviously not to blame for any current problems. Their departure is just one of the parts of the chronology discussed in this thread that I'm trying to get straight.

The various pieces of the puzzle I'm curious about are:
1) Why such a big exodus a year ago?
2) Why additional departures this year?
3) How can the school do better at hiring, training, and support?
4) And most importantly, what is the principal doing or not doing that is causing problems?

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is the former parent. I am going to try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
The various pieces of the puzzle I'm curious about are:
1) Why such a big exodus a year ago?
Some teachers were ready to retire or ready for a different role. Some were unhappy with the AP at that time.
2) Why additional departures this year?
It sounds like a difficult year.[i]
3) How can the school do better at hiring, training, and support?
There is a teacher shortage so there are limited candidates. Increasing pay could be helpful. When my DC's were at SMS, there were many different ability levels in one classroom similar to public school. It could be overwhelming for many teachers especially new ones.That is one area the school could support teachers by either hiring more support staff or finding ways to instruct students who are far below or far above grade level.
When DC's attended, a new math program was put in place. The training for teachers was inconsistent. The school should consistently implement new programs.

Losing so many veteran teachers was difficult as there were few or no mentors for new teachers.

During DC's time, teachers did leave mid-year, but there were replacements put in rather quickly.
4) And most importantly, what is the principal doing or not doing that is causing problems?
His background is in independent Catholic schools. Parish schools run very differently than those schools. There is a greater range of students.[i]

Are there other parents you can find who would meet with Father to share your concerns and some solutions? I cannot speak to whether the new principal is causing these problems, but if that is in fact true, then lobbying the priests and the Diocese to replace him is important.

Are there schools who are not having retention issues. Can you find out what those schools are doing?

It is worth paying attention to the HTS thread because it sounds like they are having similar issues.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for this helpful reply! I really appreciate it.

Okay, so this is what I'm hearing. It sounds like some of the big exodus of MS faculty at the end of the 2022-23 school year attrition was natural (ready for retirement or ready for a different role) and some of it was faculty dissatisfaction with the then AP, who was then demoted after the exodus. That suggests that the exodus was not primarily driven by an MS faculty member not getting the principal job, and that it was also not primarily driven by dissatisfaction with the new principal.

This year's attrition may have different causes. It sounds like the broad range of abilities in the classroom combined with new teachers who were insufficiently trained, mentored, and supported, led to problems, both in terms of student/parent experience and in terms of overwhelmed teachers.

On the training and support front, everything you say makes sense. With a lot of new teachers, they need better training and mentoring. And with a broad range of ability levels in each classroom, they need to figure something out to live up to the goal of helping each child reach his or her full God-given potential. (In my opinion, this goal is one of the best things about Catholic education vs. public education (in public, they have goals that are more about the entire student population, closing gaps, etc.)

It seems like they should do a few things:
- proactively invest in teacher training and mentoring
- be prepared to go over budget for a while to address this problem
- be prepared to do much more than just plug attrition gaps with new inexperienced teachers
- hire more aides and teaching assistants
- figure out ways to tailor instruction to the highest and lowest ability students in each grade, even if that means shuffling students around a bit more
- try to recruit a few highly experienced teachers
- recognize that there is a lasting teacher shortage and that there is a need to over-hire in anticipation of continued turnover. Even if it means going over budget a little, they should try to start the next few years with a little extra teacher slack. A few extra teachers would find plenty of useful work to do, and then when someone leaves, the transition would be seamless
- hire someone (either full-time or on a consulting basis) who is an expert in teacher training or teaching excellence. Such a person could do a lot of good--organize a good on-boarding process for new teachers, a mentoring program, professional development, best practice sharing, etc.
- really aim for excellence and rapid improvement and set sights very high
- at least in the brainstorming stage, don't focus on constraints or make excuses ("we're just a little urban parochial school"). First figure out what would dramatically improve things and then figure out how to prioritize and pay for things

I'm interested to hear that the principal has a background in Independent Catholic Schools. To me that sounds like a potential asset. Those schools are often forced to be more competitive with other private schools in terms of academic excellence, teaching quality, how smoothly things run, etc. Of course he'll have to learn to navigate the parochial system, but presumably the priest and experienced staff members can help him with that.

I actually don't have any issues with the principal. He seems good to me so far. I don't have any reason to complain about him or to want him replaced.

I just want some clarity on what people are complaining about on here. It has seemed vague to me. Various posters say:
a) no problems
b) turnover problems but teacher shortage is cause
c) principal is to blame
d) priest is to blame
But no-one is providing any details about why they think a) or b) or c) or d) is the answer.

Other posters, please share your perspective!

Anyway, thank you for your great answer. Very helpful.

[Anonymous]

^^the school employs a Director of Curriculum and Instruction. Perhaps this position needs to take a more active role in teacher training and onboarding as that seems that should be part of that job?

As for the principal, in the parent meeting he held for my child’s grade level, he didn’t give answers, or if he does it is very surface level. This leads to parental concern that he does not know what is going on in the school, as a substantive conversation doesn’t happen on any subject but artwork on the walls. From these meetings there is the sense the principal does not support the teachers as well and I say that based on language used. I don’t have this personal experience but other parents have reported bringing concerns to the principal and he says “he wasn’t aware” when the parents know several additional families have brought these concerns to him. Families are then concerned he isn’t being genuine or addressing concerns brought to his attention.

I am not sure where the Pastor fits in to this conversation as my child has never seen him at the school. They have Mass in the gym, so they aren’t always walking down the street to the church.

I feel I should add I know zero first hand information about the middle school but there are definitely concerns about lack of learning and rigor being shared at social gatherings of school families. There are no issues with the non-middle school grades being shared, so that is positive!

Just my two cents!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for this helpful reply! I really appreciate it.

Okay, so this is what I'm hearing. It sounds like some of the big exodus of MS faculty at the end of the 2022-23 school year attrition was natural (ready for retirement or ready for a different role) and some of it was faculty dissatisfaction with the then AP, who was then demoted after the exodus. That suggests that the exodus was not primarily driven by an MS faculty member not getting the principal job, and that it was also not primarily driven by dissatisfaction with the new principal.

This year's attrition may have different causes. It sounds like the broad range of abilities in the classroom combined with new teachers who were insufficiently trained, mentored, and supported, led to problems, both in terms of student/parent experience and in terms of overwhelmed teachers.

On the training and support front, everything you say makes sense. With a lot of new teachers, they need better training and mentoring. And with a broad range of ability levels in each classroom, they need to figure something out to live up to the goal of helping each child reach his or her full God-given potential. (In my opinion, this goal is one of the best things about Catholic education vs. public education (in public, they have goals that are more about the entire student population, closing gaps, etc.)

It seems like they should do a few things:
- proactively invest in teacher training and mentoring
- be prepared to go over budget for a while to address this problem
- be prepared to do much more than just plug attrition gaps with new inexperienced teachers
- hire more aides and teaching assistants
- figure out ways to tailor instruction to the highest and lowest ability students in each grade, even if that means shuffling students around a bit more
- try to recruit a few highly experienced teachers
- recognize that there is a lasting teacher shortage and that there is a need to over-hire in anticipation of continued turnover. Even if it means going over budget a little, they should try to start the next few years with a little extra teacher slack. A few extra teachers would find plenty of useful work to do, and then when someone leaves, the transition would be seamless
- hire someone (either full-time or on a consulting basis) who is an expert in teacher training or teaching excellence. Such a person could do a lot of good--organize a good on-boarding process for new teachers, a mentoring program, professional development, best practice sharing, etc.
- really aim for excellence and rapid improvement and set sights very high
- at least in the brainstorming stage, don't focus on constraints or make excuses ("we're just a little urban parochial school"). First figure out what would dramatically improve things and then figure out how to prioritize and pay for things

I'm interested to hear that the principal has a background in Independent Catholic Schools. To me that sounds like a potential asset. Those schools are often forced to be more competitive with other private schools in terms of academic excellence, teaching quality, how smoothly things run, etc. Of course he'll have to learn to navigate the parochial system, but presumably the priest and experienced staff members can help him with that.

I actually don't have any issues with the principal. He seems good to me so far. I don't have any reason to complain about him or to want him replaced.

I just want some clarity on what people are complaining about on here. It has seemed vague to me. Various posters say:
a) no problems
b) turnover problems but teacher shortage is cause
c) principal is to blame
d) priest is to blame
But no-one is providing any details about why they think a) or b) or c) or d) is the answer.

Other posters, please share your perspective!

Anyway, thank you for your great answer. Very helpful.

PP: These are great suggestions and I hope the school implements them. They can turn this around!

[Anonymous]

Going to mass EVERY Friday is a waste of time. That’s right — I SAID IT! And a lot of parents think the same thing.

School is for SCHOOL. They get plenty of religious instruction integrated into the curriculum, etc. Spending over an hour a week on mass (probably more, when you include walking to the gym and back, etc) is silly — especially since most families already go to mass on Sundays. How much mass do kids need???

They should go to the Basilica once a month and leave it at that. The rest of the time should be laser-focused on ACADEMICS. What a crazy idea, I know!

[Anonymous]

I don't know. Three percent of total school hours spent on Mass doesn't seem like that a big detractor from academics.

I don't think it makes sense for the least religious families to try to remake the school to fit their ideal level of religion. I think it's better to let the school be as it is and then families can take it or leave it. Let the school be as it has always been, instead of keeping up with evolving modern sensibilities which have become dramatically less religious over time.

And think of your kid's entire week. If he gets a little too much religion for you during the 30 hours he's in school, fear not, he's being bombarded with much more anti-religious content than ever before during the rest of his week. Pride messaging alone is everywhere--on the streets, in the stores, on TV, in the public libraries.

If academic excellence is the goal, hiring, developing, and retaining great teachers as discussed in this thread is the priority.

Getting to sit in the same old classroom with an inexperienced teacher and a worksheet for three extra hours a month isn't going to make any difference. The walk to the gym, the mindset change, and a few biblical readings from an adult other than their homeroom teacher is arguably more educational.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The current principal of St Mary’s lacks leadership, so I don’t blame teachers for leaving. The school needs to get the middle school under control ASAP.

Ultimately, it’s the church’s Rector’s responsibility (and fault). He, not the principal, controls the school. Surprised that the Diocese hasn’t noticed the chaos and stepped in yet.

This. Hathaway is the problem and is going to bankrupt the parish. We quit giving the minute our kid graduated 8th grade; he's spending like there's no tomorrow.