S/O is anyone not bothered by the “mental load”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

So your 4 year old was upset because they couldn't get into.the special camp they got into when they were 3?

Four year olds I know can tell me if they are unhappy at school or in a new foster family.

Why would a kid only be unhappy if they didn’t get something super special? Kids are usually unhappy because they are in a crappy situation.

Great. So you are agreeing with me that 4 year olds couldn't care less about their parents signing them up for special camps.

I’m guessing that you don’t have kids or your kids aren’t in childcare at all. Only 10% of daycares are rated as “high quality.” (Meaning caregivers give hugs, encouragement, read to kids, etc). The number may be higher for summer camps, but I think we can pretty easily say that it’s not more than 30-40%.

If I could change that and make it so 90% of camps and daycares were happy, positive environments where kids were encouraged to play and never ignored or yelled at, then I would. But I don’t have that ability. All I can do is make sure that my kid goes to a good one.

I’m the PP here who said I did sign up for camp because I didn’t want my kids to be unhappy. All the other replies were not me but were other parents who have some idea of how terrible “camps” can be. Who ever is writing all these responses either has had exceptionally good luck and no friends or has never had a child at camp or most likely is a very uninvolved parent who likes to denigrate their partner’s efforts to selecting quality child care. This is the first summer either child will go to a single specialty camp. But making sure they got spots at places where I trusted issues would be handled adequately and they would be kept safe is a huge priority for me. So many horror stories about kids who are bullied an entire camp because it’s staffed mostly by 12 year old “counselors in training”.

If it makes it easier for you to sleep well, go ahead and believe the bolded.

I am the mother. I make the plans. DH executes them.
A 4/5/6/7/8 year old does not need to go to any camp to be happy. If you are so concerned about unsafe camps (you need a chill pill) hire a nanny/sister who can take them to playgrounds and they will be happy. And an older child (9 and above) should be helping you do the planning.

My kids did some camps when they were 8 and under - dance, went to the public school camps for a couple of hours, a few nature camps offered by our city, etc. They did not have to do any of these. There is a swing in the backyard and water guns in the garage, plenty of books in the house and in the library. That could have kept them happy all summer.

Complaining about being responsible for planning for health, education etc makes sense. Complaining about camps for kids who would be equally happy at home playing in the backyard is being a mommy matyr. Good luck to you!

It sounds like you don’t work during the day and don’t use childcare. I I’m not sure why you are commenting on summer childcare arrangements at all.
And are you seriously suggesting the pp should tell her husband to hire a nanny if the kids are unhappy at camp?

Try again.

I usually work about 50-60 hours a week


Yes, she and her DH can hire a nanny or a sitter. These camps are not cheap. What is so strange about that? Where did she keep her 4 year old during the school year? ( and yes, she is the one who brought up a 4 year old in her original reply to rationalize her matyrdom).

You work 50-60 hours a week and let the kids just be in the backyard all day during summer? Something isn't making sense here, unless you just have a full-time nanny. If that's the case, then you are talking about having BOTH a nanny and using camps. That's not what the other poster(s) is talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

So your 4 year old was upset because they couldn't get into.the special camp they got into when they were 3?

Four year olds I know can tell me if they are unhappy at school or in a new foster family.

Why would a kid only be unhappy if they didn’t get something super special? Kids are usually unhappy because they are in a crappy situation.

Great. So you are agreeing with me that 4 year olds couldn't care less about their parents signing them up for special camps.

I’m guessing that you don’t have kids or your kids aren’t in childcare at all. Only 10% of daycares are rated as “high quality.” (Meaning caregivers give hugs, encouragement, read to kids, etc). The number may be higher for summer camps, but I think we can pretty easily say that it’s not more than 30-40%.

If I could change that and make it so 90% of camps and daycares were happy, positive environments where kids were encouraged to play and never ignored or yelled at, then I would. But I don’t have that ability. All I can do is make sure that my kid goes to a good one.

I’m the PP here who said I did sign up for camp because I didn’t want my kids to be unhappy. All the other replies were not me but were other parents who have some idea of how terrible “camps” can be. Who ever is writing all these responses either has had exceptionally good luck and no friends or has never had a child at camp or most likely is a very uninvolved parent who likes to denigrate their partner’s efforts to selecting quality child care. This is the first summer either child will go to a single specialty camp. But making sure they got spots at places where I trusted issues would be handled adequately and they would be kept safe is a huge priority for me. So many horror stories about kids who are bullied an entire camp because it’s staffed mostly by 12 year old “counselors in training”.

If it makes it easier for you to sleep well, go ahead and believe the bolded.

I am the mother. I make the plans. DH executes them.
A 4/5/6/7/8 year old does not need to go to any camp to be happy. If you are so concerned about unsafe camps (you need a chill pill) hire a nanny/sister who can take them to playgrounds and they will be happy. And an older child (9 and above) should be helping you do the planning.

My kids did some camps when they were 8 and under - dance, went to the public school camps for a couple of hours, a few nature camps offered by our city, etc. They did not have to do any of these. There is a swing in the backyard and water guns in the garage, plenty of books in the house and in the library. That could have kept them happy all summer.

Complaining about being responsible for planning for health, education etc makes sense. Complaining about camps for kids who would be equally happy at home playing in the backyard is being a mommy matyr. Good luck to you!

It sounds like you don’t work during the day and don’t use childcare. I I’m not sure why you are commenting on summer childcare arrangements at all.
And are you seriously suggesting the pp should tell her husband to hire a nanny if the kids are unhappy at camp?

Try again.

I usually work about 50-60 hours a week


Yes, she and her DH can hire a nanny or a sitter. These camps are not cheap. What is so strange about that? Where did she keep her 4 year old during the school year? ( and yes, she is the one who brought up a 4 year old in her original reply to rationalize her matyrdom).

I’m not the pp who talked about scheduling childcare. I brought up a 4 year old because you said that kids who are old enough to be unhappy are old enough to schedule their own camps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

So your 4 year old was upset because they couldn't get into.the special camp they got into when they were 3?

Four year olds I know can tell me if they are unhappy at school or in a new foster family.

Why would a kid only be unhappy if they didn’t get something super special? Kids are usually unhappy because they are in a crappy situation.

Great. So you are agreeing with me that 4 year olds couldn't care less about their parents signing them up for special camps.

I’m guessing that you don’t have kids or your kids aren’t in childcare at all. Only 10% of daycares are rated as “high quality.” (Meaning caregivers give hugs, encouragement, read to kids, etc). The number may be higher for summer camps, but I think we can pretty easily say that it’s not more than 30-40%.

If I could change that and make it so 90% of camps and daycares were happy, positive environments where kids were encouraged to play and never ignored or yelled at, then I would. But I don’t have that ability. All I can do is make sure that my kid goes to a good one.

I’m the PP here who said I did sign up for camp because I didn’t want my kids to be unhappy. All the other replies were not me but were other parents who have some idea of how terrible “camps” can be. Who ever is writing all these responses either has had exceptionally good luck and no friends or has never had a child at camp or most likely is a very uninvolved parent who likes to denigrate their partner’s efforts to selecting quality child care. This is the first summer either child will go to a single specialty camp. But making sure they got spots at places where I trusted issues would be handled adequately and they would be kept safe is a huge priority for me. So many horror stories about kids who are bullied an entire camp because it’s staffed mostly by 12 year old “counselors in training”.

If it makes it easier for you to sleep well, go ahead and believe the bolded.

I am the mother. I make the plans. DH executes them.
A 4/5/6/7/8 year old does not need to go to any camp to be happy. If you are so concerned about unsafe camps (you need a chill pill) hire a nanny/sister who can take them to playgrounds and they will be happy. And an older child (9 and above) should be helping you do the planning.

My kids did some camps when they were 8 and under - dance, went to the public school camps for a couple of hours, a few nature camps offered by our city, etc. They did not have to do any of these. There is a swing in the backyard and water guns in the garage, plenty of books in the house and in the library. That could have kept them happy all summer.

Complaining about being responsible for planning for health, education etc makes sense. Complaining about camps for kids who would be equally happy at home playing in the backyard is being a mommy matyr. Good luck to you!

It sounds like you don’t work during the day and don’t use childcare. I I’m not sure why you are commenting on summer childcare arrangements at all.
And are you seriously suggesting the pp should tell her husband to hire a nanny if the kids are unhappy at camp?

Try again.

I usually work about 50-60 hours a week


Yes, she and her DH can hire a nanny or a sitter. These camps are not cheap. What is so strange about that? Where did she keep her 4 year old during the school year? ( and yes, she is the one who brought up a 4 year old in her original reply to rationalize her matyrdom).

You work 50-60 hours a week and let the kids just be in the backyard all day during summer? Something isn't making sense here, unless you just have a full-time nanny. If that's the case, then you are talking about having BOTH a nanny and using camps. That's not what the other poster(s) is talking about.

Maybe the pp lives in a yurt and works 50-60 hours a week weaving and subsistence farming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

So your 4 year old was upset because they couldn't get into.the special camp they got into when they were 3?

Four year olds I know can tell me if they are unhappy at school or in a new foster family.

Why would a kid only be unhappy if they didn’t get something super special? Kids are usually unhappy because they are in a crappy situation.

Great. So you are agreeing with me that 4 year olds couldn't care less about their parents signing them up for special camps.

I’m guessing that you don’t have kids or your kids aren’t in childcare at all. Only 10% of daycares are rated as “high quality.” (Meaning caregivers give hugs, encouragement, read to kids, etc). The number may be higher for summer camps, but I think we can pretty easily say that it’s not more than 30-40%.

If I could change that and make it so 90% of camps and daycares were happy, positive environments where kids were encouraged to play and never ignored or yelled at, then I would. But I don’t have that ability. All I can do is make sure that my kid goes to a good one.

I’m the PP here who said I did sign up for camp because I didn’t want my kids to be unhappy. All the other replies were not me but were other parents who have some idea of how terrible “camps” can be. Who ever is writing all these responses either has had exceptionally good luck and no friends or has never had a child at camp or most likely is a very uninvolved parent who likes to denigrate their partner’s efforts to selecting quality child care. This is the first summer either child will go to a single specialty camp. But making sure they got spots at places where I trusted issues would be handled adequately and they would be kept safe is a huge priority for me. So many horror stories about kids who are bullied an entire camp because it’s staffed mostly by 12 year old “counselors in training”.

If it makes it easier for you to sleep well, go ahead and believe the bolded.

I am the mother. I make the plans. DH executes them.
A 4/5/6/7/8 year old does not need to go to any camp to be happy. If you are so concerned about unsafe camps (you need a chill pill) hire a nanny/sister who can take them to playgrounds and they will be happy. And an older child (9 and above) should be helping you do the planning.

My kids did some camps when they were 8 and under - dance, went to the public school camps for a couple of hours, a few nature camps offered by our city, etc. They did not have to do any of these. There is a swing in the backyard and water guns in the garage, plenty of books in the house and in the library. That could have kept them happy all summer.

Complaining about being responsible for planning for health, education etc makes sense. Complaining about camps for kids who would be equally happy at home playing in the backyard is being a mommy matyr. Good luck to you!

Not the PP but is it possible that different kids need different things? Great that your kids are happy with some water guns and a swing. Other kids might want to be engaged in a bigger world than that. It shouldn’t be surprising that different kids are…different. Some homebodies, some extroverted adventurers (I have one of each). It takes all kinds.

And it takes all kinds of parents too. If you like to plan for things that are not essential, go ahead and do it. But quit whining and being resentful. You can drop all these things, and your kids will still be amazing and extroverted adventurers.

My kids are actually overscheduled between music, athletics, plus Math competition. I don't mind planning these things. But I know that they are not essential so I don't complain. I happily do them.

If I had to plan all the doctor's and dentist appointments, teachers conferences etc, I'd probably complain because these are essential.

It sounds like you don’t view having a job as essential, so it’s okay with you if your kids don’t have childcare and you are in charge of managing the household.

I know it's hard for you to imagine that there are women out there who are happy with their careers and family life: women who are not looking for every tiny excuse to be miserable matyrs. Sorry to disappoint you: we exist.

Keep being bitter about having to schedule camps your children don't need.

I believe the pp was talking about camp as childcare, and wanting somewhat decent camp/childcare.

Maybe you aren't from the DMV, but around here we have what is called 'planuary' where you enroll in summer camps. There can be zero summer camp availability later if you don't sign up early. Nannies are generally far more expensive than summer camps. For example, sitters are ~$25/hour for a single kid, so a 35 hour week for a sitter is going to run $875 for a single kid. And that also means finding a sitter with that sort of availability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know my wife thinks she handles all the mental load because the things that mean a lot to her are “mental load” and the things that I handle “are things you were going to do anyway.”

Same here. I handle the finances, plan the vacations, handle the kids after school schedules and drive them, keep track of their homework and school projects, but she thinks she does it all because she plans meals and buys clothes.

So imagine if you also planned all the meals and bought all the clothes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I organize and plan pretty much everything for my family and it doesn’t bother me. My husband and I work FT - he’s WAH, I’m WOH - about equal hours, but he makes three times what I do. We have three kids and share most of the housework (just hired cleaners to come every two weeks), but I do all of the cooking and he does all of the laundry. He does a lot of the hands on parenting while I am the one enrolling in camps, organizing birthday parties, planning vacations etc. (and also staying on top of our finances). I’m pretty Type A and a natural planner so it really doesn’t bother me and I don’t feel bogged down by it. I guess it’s hard for me to understand why some people feel like it’s so intolerable - it’s just part of being an adult! You would have a mental load even if it were just you!

Okay, so imagine if he only did laundry and hands on parenting when requested and spent most of his time on his phone while you’re running around vacuuming, scheduling play dates, meal prepping and wrapping birthday presents. Oh and you make more than him. “Understand” now?