S/O is anyone not bothered by the “mental load”?

[Anonymous]

“ He does a lot of the hands on parenting while I am the one enrolling in camps, organizing birthday parties, planning vacations etc. ”

He is doing the parenting while you do other stuff. People bothered by the mental load usually have to do both of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

[Anonymous]

Mental load is just an excuse for women to inflate the work they're doing by counting stuff they worry about but never the stuff the man is worrying about

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mental load is just an excuse for women to inflate the work they're doing by counting stuff they worry about but never the stuff the man is worrying about

Exactly. Because instead of caring about the quality of a child’s life, men are out there starting wars and being violent.

Who cares about doctors appointments, vaccines, school work, kid birthdays, teacher conferences, extracurriculars etc ?

We should all be like men and destroy life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

So your 4 year old was upset because they couldn't get into.the special camp they got into when they were 3?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

So your 4 year old was upset because they couldn't get into.the special camp they got into when they were 3?

Four year olds I know can tell me if they are unhappy at school or in a new foster family.

Why would a kid only be unhappy if they didn’t get something super special? Kids are usually unhappy because they are in a crappy situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think a big part of this perpetual conflict is the recognition of the load.

It works as long as both partners are aware of and appreciate what the other is doing. Problems set in when one side doesn't see or try to compensate for the fact that things are unbalanced.

This.
The “mental load” is invisible when you do it well. It’s one of those things that’s only noticed if it’s not being done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You, PPs, seem to have husband's who either pitch in or at least appreciate you doing it all.

I do all the parenting and the housework myself. My husband does NOTHING. I don't mind. What I do mind, however, is his complete lack of understanding and appreciation of what it takes to raise a child.

For example, back when our daughter was in daycare, he didn’t understand the effort to get her ready in the mornings. He kept saying: "Just stop celebrating and take her to the daycare!"

I work part-time (lawyer) because he leaves at 5 a.m. and comes home in the evening, too tired to do anything.

To top it all, he is pressuring me to start earning significantly more, an amount approaching his salary. I currently earn 200k, he averages almost 1m. When I point out the child-related duties, his reply:"It's your fault, hire a nanny!"

You can imagine my resentment. I just hope that my daughter will not end up thinking that this setup is normal.

With all due respect, your household income is more than enough to outsource all domestic duties and then some.

Are you saying this as someone with a similar income who outsources all domestic duties?
Or maybe you are someone who does domestic work for a family with a similar income.

Or, most likely, you are someone who has never hired out all or most of your domestic work and has no experience with it, but imagines that there is a large market of highly competent domestic workers looking for employment, and they are very easy to find, hire, and manage.

DP who has kids with SN with a HHI @$175K gross. With my kids, we aspire for average. If we could afford 'domestic workers', I wouldn't aspire for "highly competent". "Acceptable" would make a huge difference for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

So your 4 year old was upset because they couldn't get into.the special camp they got into when they were 3?

18:38 here. My 4 yo had no idea what camps were about. He'd go anywhere but he wanted to feel safe and comfortable. He had a horrible experience with a summer camp thru FCPS and that made it incredibly difficult to get him to try others. Like the PP, I wasn't looking for "special". We were basically looking for child care.

How nice for you that your kid is so easy and you don't have to consider affordability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

So your 4 year old was upset because they couldn't get into.the special camp they got into when they were 3?

Four year olds I know can tell me if they are unhappy at school or in a new foster family.

Why would a kid only be unhappy if they didn’t get something super special? Kids are usually unhappy because they are in a crappy situation.

Great. So you are agreeing with me that 4 year olds couldn't care less about their parents signing them up for special camps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

So your 4 year old was upset because they couldn't get into.the special camp they got into when they were 3?

Four year olds I know can tell me if they are unhappy at school or in a new foster family.

Why would a kid only be unhappy if they didn’t get something super special? Kids are usually unhappy because they are in a crappy situation.

Great. So you are agreeing with me that 4 year olds couldn't care less about their parents signing them up for special camps.

No one said that they were signing their kids up for special camps. They said that they didn’t want their kids to be unhappy.
You made an assumption that this meant that the kid didn’t get their special thing. But the way I read that is that the pp wants to make sure that the camp is safe and clean and decently run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I organize and plan pretty much everything for my family and it doesn’t bother me. My husband and I work FT - he’s WAH, I’m WOH - about equal hours, but he makes three times what I do. We have three kids and share most of the housework (just hired cleaners to come every two weeks), but I do all of the cooking and he does all of the laundry. He does a lot of the hands on parenting while I am the one enrolling in camps, organizing birthday parties, planning vacations etc. (and also staying on top of our finances). I’m pretty Type A and a natural planner so it really doesn’t bother me and I don’t feel bogged down by it. I guess it’s hard for me to understand why some people feel like it’s so intolerable - it’s just part of being an adult! You would have a mental load even if it were just you!

To me the things you listed are a small and relatively straightforward part of what I consider the mental load of running a family. Staying on top of the laundry so that the soccer jersey is always clean and findable is not fun but you can set up a system. For me the killers are the things that pop up that are both important and urgent and those seem to fall to mom. For example, both my kids see specialists regularly now, which is a pain, but the need for those doctors came out significant situations so I had to drop everything and finding those specialists and coordinate first possible appointments - super stressful and a huge amount of time. Figuring out how to rearrange everything when a child is sick or child care falls through. Medical device breaks and you have to drop everything to get that figured out. I know not everyone has as much of this stuff as we do but everyone has it. Even if it’s just oh I need whatever thing for school tomorrow- who is going to figure that out. That stuff is frustrating.

I agree with this. The tasks that require creativity/adaptability fall on me, always. I can get my husband to be compliant, to help out with the routine things (like washing dishes, recycling, putting away laundry), but I'm left to do anything the requires extra research or figuring out. I feel like I'm not allowed to complain about it ("well at least he vacuums and cleans the dishes"). I just know everything would fall apart if we switched roles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You, PPs, seem to have husband's who either pitch in or at least appreciate you doing it all.

I do all the parenting and the housework myself. My husband does NOTHING. I don't mind. What I do mind, however, is his complete lack of understanding and appreciation of what it takes to raise a child.

For example, back when our daughter was in daycare, he didn’t understand the effort to get her ready in the mornings. He kept saying: "Just stop celebrating and take her to the daycare!"

I work part-time (lawyer) because he leaves at 5 a.m. and comes home in the evening, too tired to do anything.

To top it all, he is pressuring me to start earning significantly more, an amount approaching his salary. I currently earn 200k, he averages almost 1m. When I point out the child-related duties, his reply:"It's your fault, hire a nanny!"

You can imagine my resentment. I just hope that my daughter will not end up thinking that this setup is normal.

With all due respect, your household income is more than enough to outsource all domestic duties and then some.

Are you saying this as someone with a similar income who outsources all domestic duties?
Or maybe you are someone who does domestic work for a family with a similar income.

Or, most likely, you are someone who has never hired out all or most of your domestic work and has no experience with it, but imagines that there is a large market of highly competent domestic workers looking for employment, and they are very easy to find, hire, and manage.

DP who has kids with SN with a HHI @$175K gross. With my kids, we aspire for average. If we could afford 'domestic workers', I wouldn't aspire for "highly competent". "Acceptable" would make a huge difference for us.

I have four kids and a HHI of $250k. For me, it matters even more on a lower income.
If I’m going to pay someone $200 to do some laundry and cooking, then I expect there to be a few meals prepared for my family, the kitchen cleaned, and most of the laundry done. If someone isn’t making food that’s better than takeout or my kids can’t find clean clothes in the morning, then it’s not worth it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I organize and plan pretty much everything for my family and it doesn’t bother me. My husband and I work FT - he’s WAH, I’m WOH - about equal hours, but he makes three times what I do. We have three kids and share most of the housework (just hired cleaners to come every two weeks), but I do all of the cooking and he does all of the laundry. He does a lot of the hands on parenting while I am the one enrolling in camps, organizing birthday parties, planning vacations etc. (and also staying on top of our finances). I’m pretty Type A and a natural planner so it really doesn’t bother me and I don’t feel bogged down by it. I guess it’s hard for me to understand why some people feel like it’s so intolerable - it’s just part of being an adult! You would have a mental load even if it were just you!

Yeah same. It does take some time, like maybe a couple hours a week, to think through and coordinate logistics? But I don't agonize over it. It's totally fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The conversation around mental labor is so challenging because women take it as axiomatic that men “should” care about all the things (summer camps registration, Christmas cards, Larlo needs a purple shirt on Thursday for school, etc.). They just literally will never care about these things the way women do, and frankly, rarely manage these tasks as well as women.

I liken this to the way men are endlessly frustrated that their wives don’t “want” them as much as they “should” intimately. It just is. No amount of frustration or exasperation or explaining how his wife “should want” to do xyz with him in bed will ever change the fact that women by and large will never want the way men do.

Once I accepted that my DH just won’t care as much as I do (but will take any labor domain I ask), it was so freeing! I don’t expect him to get the kids ready ever. I don’t mind doing it anymore, because it’s not even a question to me that he won’t. BUT I’ve gotten super comfortable leaving certain domains entirely to him (all the laundry, all the cooking, all the car stuff), and I take all the kid stuff.

I am the PP who wrote about medical issues and I think most people realize that Christmas Cards and spirit week are optional. Summer camp is child care for us so finding adequate coverage that won’t require driving all over is not optional.

I’ve written this before in the SN forum but I feel like what happens is a game of chicken. I could just wait and see if my husband found *some* camp for my kids but I am not willing to make my kids unhappy all summer to prove a point. So the way I deal is to do the things I care about and just not feel guilty at all when stuff doesn’t get handled. For example, I found all those specialists, rearranged my schedule and got my kids cared for. My husband’s job was to submit for re-imburstment (since many top doctors don’t take insurance, yay America). He didn’t and didn’t and didn’t. It probably cost us several thousands of dollars over the years. Oh well. My kids got the care they needed and we paid our bills. To me, this is the equivalent of not doing spirit week or whatever. You may feel differently! But when you do all the work you get to prioritize what you make sure happens.

Either the bolded us in your mind or you have raised some entitled kids. If they are old enough to be unhappy about summer camps, they are old enough to do the research and do most of the planning.

What?
What age do you think kids are old enough to be unhappy and articulate why? I would say maybe 4 years old at the latest.

My kids could research and plan their summers until they were teens. Long past the need for childcare.

So your 4 year old was upset because they couldn't get into.the special camp they got into when they were 3?

Four year olds I know can tell me if they are unhappy at school or in a new foster family.

Why would a kid only be unhappy if they didn’t get something super special? Kids are usually unhappy because they are in a crappy situation.

Great. So you are agreeing with me that 4 year olds couldn't care less about their parents signing them up for special camps.

I’m guessing that you don’t have kids or your kids aren’t in childcare at all. Only 10% of daycares are rated as “high quality.” (Meaning caregivers give hugs, encouragement, read to kids, etc). The number may be higher for summer camps, but I think we can pretty easily say that it’s not more than 30-40%.

If I could change that and make it so 90% of camps and daycares were happy, positive environments where kids were encouraged to play and never ignored or yelled at, then I would. But I don’t have that ability. All I can do is make sure that my kid goes to a good one.