Biden Admin to Remove Statue of William Penn from Philadelphia Park

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

Some suggestions: Freedomania, Freedom Station, University of Freedom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

There is no reason to celebrate humans who owned other humans.

This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand.

There is no reason for you to understand that life in the eighteenth century was fairly brutal and harsh for everyone, be they the 12 year old cabin boy plucked from the whorehouse in London, or the planter dying of syphilis, or his Irish servants also dying of syphilis, or his African slaves. Your complete blindness to any facts, your willingness to erase history doesn't help those dead slaves, or make their descendants' lives better. It's a hollow gesture, performed by someone who is undoubtedly proud their own ancestors weren't there... But also too lazy to check on what their own ancestors were up to. I guarantee, even without knowing you, there was some non consensual stuff going on in your family tree as well.

By dehumanizing slave owners, you're erasing slavery. No one is saying chattal slavery wasn't awful, but in the 18th, in a place like Philadelphia, it was only one of several unjust labor systems, all designed to function in a pre-industrial world with varying regards for the welfare of the people involved.

DP

Moreover, Penn led efforts to improve conditions for all workers and ultimately his reforms inspired the Constitution. His state was very much a leader in abolishing slavery and establishing a more just society.

Do you really believe that all white people enjoyed a happy go lucky life way back then? Like the pp explains, the vast majority of people suffered.

DP Sure sure. But why is Penn being on top of city hall in the center of town not enough? Moreover, the state is named after him and his former estate is a museum. He's still represented, no need to turn him into some great untouchable hero. Very few people are.

And when did you even start to have such devotion to a little statue in a nondescript plaza anyway? It's hilarious to hear people who couldn't care 2 figs about public sculpture/art and history, who probably never even heard of William Penn before, definitely didn't know about this statue, and are now suddenly all verklempt because of a small change being proposed. Change happens. Otherwise you live in mausoleum.

DP. Curious that you ASSume no one else could possibly know or care about the founder of Pennsylvania, much less public sculpture, art, and history. I'm embarrassed for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

DP. You must be joking. Good grief, learn some history about how Africans treated one another, or Asians... you're dreaming if you think "Western" civilization was somehow worse than any other.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-slave-traders-were-african-11568991595
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/an-african-country-reckons-with-its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79dd_story.html
https://www.cambridge.org/core/elements/abs/slavery-in-east-asia/69CDDD5E84C9CC20EF4E67ECB832BD17
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/history-of-subsaharan-africa/asian-slave-trade/20938F6ADC9096FD22BDDCA5C581F1CF

Ah. This thread is about William Penn. You’re just trying to change the subject because it makes you squeamish, having to question your privilege.

Ok, now it's clear we're dealing with a troll. Oh - and I'm a POC. But great effort, getting those buzzwords in!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

One step at a time. Justice is a process.

Indeed. In the last couple of years you were forced to get rid of your memorials to those who sought to destroy the United States in the south. You were forced to abandon your military base names commemorating enslavers.
Here’s a hint. There are more enlightened folks than there are of your kind and will continue to progress to a equitable future while you sit at home in your MAGA hat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

Penn should change its name, it's always been a meh name for such a distinguished school. Half the country doesn't know what it is because of its name.

--Penn alumn

Um, pretty sure the entire country knows that Penn stands for Pennsylvania. Good grief. And it's not so "distinguished" any longer - sorry to break it to you.

I'm from the midwest and went to Penn. Everyone back home thinks I went to Penn State. No joke.

I went to Penn State. Trust me, I don't want people to think you went there, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

One step at a time. Justice is a process.

Indeed. In the last couple of years you were forced to get rid of your memorials to those who sought to destroy the United States in the south. You were forced to abandon your military base names commemorating enslavers.
Here’s a hint. There are more enlightened folks than there are of your kind and will continue to progress to a equitable future while you sit at home in your MAGA hat.

Virtue signaling isn't progress.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

No one wants to wipe out the history of America. However, enslavers like Penn need to be called out forcefully and repeatedly and not celebrated. The nuance you and others on this thread seek will be reserved for experts and academia to study.
In case you missed it, January 6th was the most insidious attack on democracy the United States ever faced. The insurrectionists lead by Trump and most Republicans can within a hair’s breadth of seizing power and implementing a fascist state.

Are you suggesting we completely edit out the founding fathers from history, ignoring the pivotal role they played in creating the world’s greatest democracy?

I’m suggesting we recognize their importance as well as their complicated, flawed past through the lens of historical context and celebrate how far we’ve come post-abolition, post-civil rights era, etc.

There’s a lot to be learned from those who fought for religious freedom, equality, etc. A lot.

This is exactly what the PP is suggesting and hoping for. It's really beyond sad. I agree with your take on this situation - we can honor those who have built this country while also recognizing their flaws and educating ourselves about both things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

Some suggestions: Freedomania, Freedom Station, University of Freedom.

I think a more appropriate name would be commemorating one of the human beings William Penn purchased and held as property.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

There is no reason to celebrate humans who owned other humans.

This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand.

There is no reason for you to understand that life in the eighteenth century was fairly brutal and harsh for everyone, be they the 12 year old cabin boy plucked from the whorehouse in London, or the planter dying of syphilis, or his Irish servants also dying of syphilis, or his African slaves. Your complete blindness to any facts, your willingness to erase history doesn't help those dead slaves, or make their descendants' lives better. It's a hollow gesture, performed by someone who is undoubtedly proud their own ancestors weren't there... But also too lazy to check on what their own ancestors were up to. I guarantee, even without knowing you, there was some non consensual stuff going on in your family tree as well.

By dehumanizing slave owners, you're erasing slavery. No one is saying chattal slavery wasn't awful, but in the 18th, in a place like Philadelphia, it was only one of several unjust labor systems, all designed to function in a pre-industrial world with varying regards for the welfare of the people involved.

DP

Moreover, Penn led efforts to improve conditions for all workers and ultimately his reforms inspired the Constitution. His state was very much a leader in abolishing slavery and establishing a more just society.

Do you really believe that all white people enjoyed a happy go lucky life way back then? Like the pp explains, the vast majority of people suffered.

DP Sure sure. But why is Penn being on top of city hall in the center of town not enough? Moreover, the state is named after him and his former estate is a museum. He's still represented, no need to turn him into some great untouchable hero. Very few people are.

And when did you even start to have such devotion to a little statue in a nondescript plaza anyway? It's hilarious to hear people who couldn't care 2 figs about public sculpture/art and history, who probably never even heard of William Penn before, definitely didn't know about this statue, and are now suddenly all verklempt because of a small change being proposed. Change happens. Otherwise you live in mausoleum.

DP. Curious that you ASSume no one else could possibly know or care about the founder of Pennsylvania, much less public sculpture, art, and history. I'm embarrassed for you.

Honey, that's a reality. It's cute if you think it's not. The majority of Americans can't even name the nation's founding fathers, you think more would know who the founder of Pennsylvania was? https://www.usmint.gov/news/press-releases/20070815-survey-reveals-most-americans-cant-name-nations-founding-fathers

Get out of your elitist bubble if you think most Americans care deeply about public sculpture. If they did, why are the arts so poorly funded in this country?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

No one wants to wipe out the history of America. However, enslavers like Penn need to be called out forcefully and repeatedly and not celebrated. The nuance you and others on this thread seek will be reserved for experts and academia to study.
In case you missed it, January 6th was the most insidious attack on democracy the United States ever faced. The insurrectionists lead by Trump and most Republicans can within a hair’s breadth of seizing power and implementing a fascist state.

Are you suggesting we completely edit out the founding fathers from history, ignoring the pivotal role they played in creating the world’s greatest democracy?

I’m suggesting we recognize their importance as well as their complicated, flawed past through the lens of historical context and celebrate how far we’ve come post-abolition, post-civil rights era, etc.

There’s a lot to be learned from those who fought for religious freedom, equality, etc. A lot.

This is exactly what the PP is suggesting and hoping for. It's really beyond sad. I agree with your take on this situation - we can honor those who have built this country while also recognizing their flaws and educating ourselves about both things.

Gee, we'd better get cracking putting up statues of all historic people if that's the only way people learn about history. I mean, I guess we can't expect people to read books or watch documentaries. Not sure where all these educational statues are going to go, given how many historic people there are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

Penn should change its name, it's always been a meh name for such a distinguished school. Half the country doesn't know what it is because of its name.

--Penn alumn

Um, pretty sure the entire country knows that Penn stands for Pennsylvania. Good grief. And it's not so "distinguished" any longer - sorry to break it to you.

I'm from the midwest and went to Penn. Everyone back home thinks I went to Penn State. No joke.

I went to Penn State. Trust me, I don't want people to think you went there, either.

Touched a nerve, eh? You should be glad that your school is the one the country recognizes and confuses for the other similarly named school. Why aren't you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Penn

Wasn’t Penn a Quaker who lived peacefully with native Americans? And quakers were antislavery. In fact, Pennsylvania was a haven for freed slaves thanks to the Underground Railroad essentially run by quakers.

I'm sure of you talked to the native Americans who experienced white settlers encroaching on their land, they would have a different story. For instance, they might say that they were forced to live peacefully next to their captors and oppressors.:. But sure let's Romanticize history.

Boo hoo. All throughout history there have been winners and losers. Natives got conquered by a superior force with more modern technology. Same story that has occurred for multiple millennia. Maybe they should tear down all of the ancient Roman structures in Africa and the Middle East too because they were conquered by the Romans?


Americans are really, really dumb these days. DEI is a cancer on their brains. Everything is racist. Everything is oppression. Diversity at all costs is the be all and end all. It's so refreshing traveling for extended periods of time and seeing how the rest of the world operates and does not give two craps about this kind of stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

No one wants to wipe out the history of America. However, enslavers like Penn need to be called out forcefully and repeatedly and not celebrated. The nuance you and others on this thread seek will be reserved for experts and academia to study.
In case you missed it, January 6th was the most insidious attack on democracy the United States ever faced. The insurrectionists lead by Trump and most Republicans can within a hair’s breadth of seizing power and implementing a fascist state.

Are you suggesting we completely edit out the founding fathers from history, ignoring the pivotal role they played in creating the world’s greatest democracy?

I’m suggesting we recognize their importance as well as their complicated, flawed past through the lens of historical context and celebrate how far we’ve come post-abolition, post-civil rights era, etc.

There’s a lot to be learned from those who fought for religious freedom, equality, etc. A lot.

This is exactly what the PP is suggesting and hoping for. It's really beyond sad. I agree with your take on this situation - we can honor those who have built this country while also recognizing their flaws and educating ourselves about both things.

LMAO. Those who built this country??? Your golden calves simply wiped out the indigenous peoples and then commanded their slaves to build.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Penn

Wasn’t Penn a Quaker who lived peacefully with native Americans? And quakers were antislavery. In fact, Pennsylvania was a haven for freed slaves thanks to the Underground Railroad essentially run by quakers.

I'm sure of you talked to the native Americans who experienced white settlers encroaching on their land, they would have a different story. For instance, they might say that they were forced to live peacefully next to their captors and oppressors.:. But sure let's Romanticize history.

Boo hoo. All throughout history there have been winners and losers. Natives got conquered by a superior force with more modern technology. Same story that has occurred for multiple millennia. Maybe they should tear down all of the ancient Roman structures in Africa and the Middle East too because they were conquered by the Romans?


Americans are really, really dumb these days. DEI is a cancer on their brains. Everything is racist. Everything is oppression. Diversity at all costs is the be all and end all. It's so refreshing traveling for extended periods of time and seeing how the rest of the world operates and does not give two craps about this kind of stuff.

You seem a little...hyptersensitive. Guilty conscience?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Penn

Wasn’t Penn a Quaker who lived peacefully with native Americans? And quakers were antislavery. In fact, Pennsylvania was a haven for freed slaves thanks to the Underground Railroad essentially run by quakers.

I'm sure of you talked to the native Americans who experienced white settlers encroaching on their land, they would have a different story. For instance, they might say that they were forced to live peacefully next to their captors and oppressors.:. But sure let's Romanticize history.

Boo hoo. All throughout history there have been winners and losers. Natives got conquered by a superior force with more modern technology. Same story that has occurred for multiple millennia. Maybe they should tear down all of the ancient Roman structures in Africa and the Middle East too because they were conquered by the Romans?


Americans are really, really dumb these days. DEI is a cancer on their brains. Everything is racist. Everything is oppression. Diversity at all costs is the be all and end all. It's so refreshing traveling for extended periods of time and seeing how the rest of the world operates and does not give two craps about this kind of stuff.

Do everyone a favor. Keep traveling. You won’t be missed.