Biden Admin to Remove Statue of William Penn from Philadelphia Park

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

DP. You must be joking. Good grief, learn some history about how Africans treated one another, or Asians... you're dreaming if you think "Western" civilization was somehow worse than any other.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-the-slave-traders-were-african-11568991595
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/an-african-country-reckons-with-its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79dd_story.html
https://www.cambridge.org/core/elements/abs/slavery-in-east-asia/69CDDD5E84C9CC20EF4E67ECB832BD17
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/history-of-subsaharan-africa/asian-slave-trade/20938F6ADC9096FD22BDDCA5C581F1CF

Ah. This thread is about William Penn. You’re just trying to change the subject because it makes you squeamish, having to question your privilege.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

There is no reason to celebrate humans who owned other humans.

This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand.

There is no reason for you to understand that life in the eighteenth century was fairly brutal and harsh for everyone, be they the 12 year old cabin boy plucked from the whorehouse in London, or the planter dying of syphilis, or his Irish servants also dying of syphilis, or his African slaves. Your complete blindness to any facts, your willingness to erase history doesn't help those dead slaves, or make their descendants' lives better. It's a hollow gesture, performed by someone who is undoubtedly proud their own ancestors weren't there... But also too lazy to check on what their own ancestors were up to. I guarantee, even without knowing you, there was some non consensual stuff going on in your family tree as well.

By dehumanizing slave owners, you're erasing slavery. No one is saying chattal slavery wasn't awful, but in the 18th, in a place like Philadelphia, it was only one of several unjust labor systems, all designed to function in a pre-industrial world with varying regards for the welfare of the people involved.

DP

Moreover, Penn led efforts to improve conditions for all workers and ultimately his reforms inspired the Constitution. His state was very much a leader in abolishing slavery and establishing a more just society.

Do you really believe that all white people enjoyed a happy go lucky life way back then? Like the pp explains, the vast majority of people suffered.

DP Sure sure. But why is Penn being on top of city hall in the center of town not enough? Moreover, the state is named after him and his former estate is a museum. He's still represented, no need to turn him into some great untouchable hero. Very few people are.

And when did you even start to have such devotion to a little statue in a nondescript plaza anyway? It's hilarious to hear people who couldn't care 2 figs about public sculpture/art and history, who probably never even heard of William Penn before, definitely didn't know about this statue, and are now suddenly all verklempt because of a small change being proposed. Change happens. Otherwise you live in mausoleum.

Isn’t Welcome Plaza named after the ship Penn arrived on (the Welcome), and isn’t the park meant to celebrate his arrival and impact?

Hopefully they won’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you been to that "park"? (It's not really a park, it's a plaza between buildings) It's been in need of work by the National Park Service for years, and the addition of exhibits describing the importance of the location to both the native people and the Europeans who settled there is a good thing.

And about the statue - it's a small copy of the 37-foot statue of Penn which is on top of Philadelphia's City Hall building. So calm yourself, no one is being "canceled."

https://www.associationforpublicart.org/artwork/william-penn/

I knew there would some context that the hair on fire freak out conservatives weren’t aware of.

DP. I think the point is, why the need to take down this statue at all? Why not simply add statues of Native Americans? And the other statue of Penn is ON TOP of a building, hardly something to get a good look at.

To many groups, the statue proudly promotes and speaks of oppression.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

One step at a time. Justice is a process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So much virtue, not enough causes to support. The laziness of the signalers. I hope those that support this waste of time and resources feel better.

Me….I wish you spent half the energy helping to fix my neighborhood.

+1
Imagine all that energy that could be expended into cleaning up the hell hole that is Philadelphia!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

THIS ^^^^. Well said, all of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So why don’t we just remove every early American founder statue? Just about all of them were slave holders. Better yet return America to the Natives and everyone should go back to where they came from. This country was founded on colonialism, racism and hatred. It shouldn’t exist as it does now.

Tell us how important these statues have been to you in your life. Which ones are your favorites, which ones have you have taken your children to in order to talk about the person depicted? I'd like to hear your stories about the impact of public art. Really, I would. I never knew so many people are so devoted to publicly funded artworks. I hope you continue to support public funding for art in our public spaces!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

No one wants to wipe out the history of America. However, enslavers like Penn need to be called out forcefully and repeatedly and not celebrated. The nuance you and others on this thread seek will be reserved for experts and academia to study.
In case you missed it, January 6th was the most insidious attack on democracy the United States ever faced. The insurrectionists lead by Trump and most Republicans can within a hair’s breadth of seizing power and implementing a fascist state.

DP. I'm sorry, but you cannot be serious. Maybe you're drunk? Regardless, to actually believe this nonsense is beyond anything I've read in a long time. You can't actually think that group of yahoos at the Capitol had any chance - whatsoever - of "seizing power," much less "implementing a fascist state." See, this is why no one takes you seriously. You have zero sense of proportionality. Zero.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

Penn should change its name, it's always been a meh name for such a distinguished school. Half the country doesn't know what it is because of its name.

--Penn alumn

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

No one wants to wipe out the history of America. However, enslavers like Penn need to be called out forcefully and repeatedly and not celebrated. The nuance you and others on this thread seek will be reserved for experts and academia to study.
In case you missed it, January 6th was the most insidious attack on democracy the United States ever faced. The insurrectionists lead by Trump and most Republicans can within a hair’s breadth of seizing power and implementing a fascist state.

Oh come on, really?

+1
Can you believe the absolute nonsense these people peddle?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

Penn should change its name, it's always been a meh name for such a distinguished school. Half the country doesn't know what it is because of its name.

--Penn alumn

Um, pretty sure the entire country knows that Penn stands for Pennsylvania. Good grief. And it's not so "distinguished" any longer - sorry to break it to you.

[Anonymous]

So when is Malcolm X's statue going to be torn down? It's pretty astounding a virulent antisemite has a statue in his honor.
https://savingplaces.org/stories/discover-malcolm-x-legacy-harlem-shabazz-center

[Anonymous]

Will any of you outraged posters come clean and confess you've never even looked at any of the statues in public spaces before and can't name the person depicted by the statue closest to your office? Come on, this is an anonymous board. We know it's true, go ahead and be honest!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

DP. So you'll be lobbying UPenn to change their name, as well as Penn Station - oh, and don't forget the state of Pennsylvania. You've got a lot to do, get cracking!

Penn should change its name, it's always been a meh name for such a distinguished school. Half the country doesn't know what it is because of its name.

--Penn alumn

Um, pretty sure the entire country knows that Penn stands for Pennsylvania. Good grief. And it's not so "distinguished" any longer - sorry to break it to you.

I'm from the midwest and went to Penn. Everyone back home thinks I went to Penn State. No joke.