What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

Guess you don't like facts. Everything I stated above was true.

All of the NVSL MEN's records were set by a MAN who was 16 at the time and it you look at all stars last summer there are 15 and 16 yr olds who placed in the tip Sure 18 yrs olds got first, but I am guessing not every one of them is really 19.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

Guess you don't like facts. Everything I stated above was true.

All of the NVSL MEN's records were set by a MAN who was 16 at the time and it you look at all stars last summer there are 15 and 16 yr olds who placed in the tip Sure 18 yrs olds got first, but I am guessing not every one of them is really 19.

and to add to this 3 years after the records were set in 2019 no 18, but really 19, year hold has yet to beat them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

Guess you don't like facts. Everything I stated above was true.

All of the NVSL MEN's records were set by a MAN who was 16 at the time and it you look at all stars last summer there are 15 and 16 yr olds who placed in the tip Sure 18 yrs olds got first, but I am guessing not every one of them is really 19.

and to add to this 3 years after the records were set in 2019 no 18, but really 19, year hold has yet to beat them.

No opportunity in 2020 so those records have only lived for 2 other seasons which is not long in NVSL.

But that 16 year old boy would have crushed and ruined the girls that summer if he had decided he was a girl and wanted to swim as a girl. That’s the point here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

Guess you don't like facts. Everything I stated above was true.

All of the NVSL MEN's records were set by a MAN who was 16 at the time and it you look at all stars last summer there are 15 and 16 yr olds who placed in the tip Sure 18 yrs olds got first, but I am guessing not every one of them is really 19.

and to add to this 3 years after the records were set in 2019 no 18, but really 19, year hold has yet to beat them.

No opportunity in 2020 so those records have only lived for 2 other seasons which is not long in NVSL.

But that 16 year old boy would have crushed and ruined the girls that summer if he had decided he was a girl and wanted to swim as a girl. That’s the point here.

Not just the fastest 16 year old boy. ALL 16 year old boys would crush the girls. Take a look at the Prince Mont all star results: https://princemont.org/2022/AllStarsResults.html

The last place (18th!) 15-18 year old boy would have come in 1st in every 15-18 girls event.

[Anonymous]

This is what you want - motivational age group time standards from USA swimming. From AAAA to B, it roughly translates as top 2%, 6%, 8%, 15%, 35%, and 55%. You can see that for 10u, the standards are the same for boys and girls. From 11-12 and up it starts to diverge and eventually an AAAA time for 17-18 girls is equivalent to an AAAA time for 13-14 boys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is what you want - motivational age group time standards from USA swimming. From AAAA to B, it roughly translates as top 2%, 6%, 8%, 15%, 35%, and 55%. You can see that for 10u, the standards are the same for boys and girls. From 11-12 and up it starts to diverge and eventually an AAAA time for 17-18 girls is equivalent to an AAAA time for 13-14 boys.

Oops
https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/timesdocuments/time-standards/2024/2021-2024-national-age-group-motivational-times.pdf?sfvrsn=f80d3f32_8

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don’t sound very familiar with A meet at a dual meet format. Do you have a HS or college swimmer (I do and I was one- which means I’m also very familiar with club meets). So A meats run one heat of boys and one heat of girls. If you mix genders you have two heats 3 scoring entries per team per event. A trans girl swimmer would have to fill a male slot in the entries and then you could race them based on time, the fastest heat would usually be all the boys and the first heat girls (but you’d have a few exceptions especially at teams without a lot of year round swimmers)

This isn’t rocket science. Enter the kids and their seed times. Run the mixed gender/age heats. Calculate the scores at the end depending on time. The times supercede the order of heat finishes. Accept thanks from parents for a shortened meet.

I don’t think you know how nvsl ‘a’ meets work. USA seimming meeting are not run like ‘a’ meets. In an a meet each team gets to enter 3 boys and 3 girls in each age group event. They are assigned lanes by team, not by time. So there is not a way to accommodate’ a biological boy who wants to swim in the girls event. It’s definitely not shortening the meet. The meet is just 1 heat of everything. B meets vary much more.

Again, it’s not rocket science. The big change is that nvsl has to change the rules and assign heats and lanes by times and not by teams/age/gender. Each kid comes into the meet with a seed time or NT. The 25’s stay 8U or 10U for fly and the rest are 14u 50’s. You put all the entries in psych sheet order and make heats from that order. There will be 10u girls who have faster seed times than some 12u and even 14u boys. The reason why this make the meet run faster is that you won’t have multiple heats of 50 free/fly/breast/back where there is one kid in each heat who is 10 sec slower than everyone else. Take a look at an A meet on meet mobile and imagine that all the 50 fly races are grouped by time alone. All the kids who take more than a minute are grouped together. Half empty heats can be consolidated.

I took a quick look at a random A meet last season - they ran 6 heats of 50 fly for the three age groups of boys and girls in a 6 lane pool. There were only 24 swimmers in those heats. There were 6 swimmers in 3 heats with times of 50 sec+. If you had mixed heats, you would have had 4 heats and put the 6 slowest swimmers in one heat. Conservatively, this would have shaved 3-4 minutes of swim time, plus another few minutes to get swimmers ready, timers ready etc between heats, so 6-8 min total. Repeat for other 50’s and now your event length is 20-25 min shorter. Combine relays to fill the lanes and now your meet can drop another 10-15 min.

Regardless of fairness, nvsl might consider this rule change to allow faster meets when there is approaching weather. In a pool that can run 8 lanes, the meet can really zip by if mixed heats were allowed.

This sound awful, it would ruin the fun competitiveness of a dual meet (I’m still not convinced you’ve ever been to one).

yeah- I don't think the poster has ever been to an NVSL 'a' meet either. For one thing- they are misinterpreting the results to mean there were only '24' swimmers in '6 heats.' There is a lot wrong with this statement. The most glaring one is that the NVSL website is only showing swimmers who finished legally ('their places') and so a swimmer who DQ'd is not shown. I'm guessing the 'random' meet the poster picked had 12 dq's in the 50 fly. That's a lot FWIW, but not unheard of. Its really uncommon to have an empty lane in an 'a' meet. It probably happens more as you go down the divisions- but certainly in the top 10 divisions its highly unlikely. Now- its possibly that someone was supposed to swim, got sick, they weren't able to make a sub that morning etc- but again fairly uncommon.
It's also wrong to think of that example as '6 heats.' No there was 1 heat. There were 6 different events. For each of these events, the kids stepped to the line, had their name announced (in lane 1, 3, and 5 swimming for blah blah pool, we have Larla swimmer, lana swimmer, etc.) raced, people cheered. 'A' meets go pretty fast, they don't need to 'go faster.' Part of the fun of the meet is the formalities of it. The better equivalent is a 'finals' event of a PVS meet rather than a regular meet. Also- I strongly suspect that 'going by seed times' would basically mean you ran the events girl, boy age up. Its pretty uncommon that a 10 year old female a meet swimmer is going to beat a 12 year old female a meet swimmer, etc.

Could you run summer NVSL swim like year round swimming, focus just on seed times, and run everything mixed gender, and sort at points at the end? Yes, you 'could' but you would be doing a very different thing. There is zero benefit to this type of change. I can understand conceptually 'how to do it,' its just a really bad idea. And it gains nothing. Biological boys don't need to swim with the girls. We don't need to fundamentally change our approach to sports to accommodate this.

I took this directly from an actual nvsl meet - dq’s were in counted. There were empty lanes because kids didn’t show up or were late to the start

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

Guess you don't like facts. Everything I stated above was true.

All of the NVSL MEN's records were set by a MAN who was 16 at the time and it you look at all stars last summer there are 15 and 16 yr olds who placed in the tip Sure 18 yrs olds got first, but I am guessing not every one of them is really 19.

You have a really bad sample set here - kids drop out like flies once they get older and legitimately fast 18 year olds are not focused on a silly summer league. They are swimming for sectionals and futures time and don’t want to waste time beating 16 year olds in a pool. This is written by someone who doesn’t know anything about real competitive swimming. There’s a reason why there are age groups and why we don’t see 16 year men swimming in the Olympics (yes Phelps was the exception).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

Guess you don't like facts. Everything I stated above was true.

All of the NVSL MEN's records were set by a MAN who was 16 at the time and it you look at all stars last summer there are 15 and 16 yr olds who placed in the tip Sure 18 yrs olds got first, but I am guessing not every one of them is really 19.

You have a really bad sample set here - kids drop out like flies once they get older and legitimately fast 18 year olds are not focused on a silly summer league. They are swimming for sectionals and futures time and don’t want to waste time beating 16 year olds in a pool. This is written by someone who doesn’t know anything about real competitive swimming. There’s a reason why there are age groups and why we don’t see 16 year men swimming in the Olympics (yes Phelps was the exception).

sure that is why there have been NVSL records set by individuals who when on to swim in the Olympics. Lots of local swimmers swim in NVSL for fun. The 16 yr old record holder was one of the top college recruits and went to Olympic trials.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

Guess you don't like facts. Everything I stated above was true.

All of the NVSL MEN's records were set by a MAN who was 16 at the time and it you look at all stars last summer there are 15 and 16 yr olds who placed in the tip Sure 18 yrs olds got first, but I am guessing not every one of them is really 19.

You have a really bad sample set here - kids drop out like flies once they get older and legitimately fast 18 year olds are not focused on a silly summer league. They are swimming for sectionals and futures time and don’t want to waste time beating 16 year olds in a pool. This is written by someone who doesn’t know anything about real competitive swimming. There’s a reason why there are age groups and why we don’t see 16 year men swimming in the Olympics (yes Phelps was the exception).

sure that is why there have been NVSL records set by individuals who when on to swim in the Olympics. Lots of local swimmers swim in NVSL for fun. The 16 yr old record holder was one of the top college recruits and went to Olympic trials.

Right, so this record holder continued to swim in nvsl and didn’t lower the record as an 18 yo? Or no, they left after 16? That’s the point, if he had stayed until 18, times would have been even lower.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don’t sound very familiar with A meet at a dual meet format. Do you have a HS or college swimmer (I do and I was one- which means I’m also very familiar with club meets). So A meats run one heat of boys and one heat of girls. If you mix genders you have two heats 3 scoring entries per team per event. A trans girl swimmer would have to fill a male slot in the entries and then you could race them based on time, the fastest heat would usually be all the boys and the first heat girls (but you’d have a few exceptions especially at teams without a lot of year round swimmers)

This isn’t rocket science. Enter the kids and their seed times. Run the mixed gender/age heats. Calculate the scores at the end depending on time. The times supercede the order of heat finishes. Accept thanks from parents for a shortened meet.

I don’t think you know how nvsl ‘a’ meets work. USA seimming meeting are not run like ‘a’ meets. In an a meet each team gets to enter 3 boys and 3 girls in each age group event. They are assigned lanes by team, not by time. So there is not a way to accommodate’ a biological boy who wants to swim in the girls event. It’s definitely not shortening the meet. The meet is just 1 heat of everything. B meets vary much more.

Again, it’s not rocket science. The big change is that nvsl has to change the rules and assign heats and lanes by times and not by teams/age/gender. Each kid comes into the meet with a seed time or NT. The 25’s stay 8U or 10U for fly and the rest are 14u 50’s. You put all the entries in psych sheet order and make heats from that order. There will be 10u girls who have faster seed times than some 12u and even 14u boys. The reason why this make the meet run faster is that you won’t have multiple heats of 50 free/fly/breast/back where there is one kid in each heat who is 10 sec slower than everyone else. Take a look at an A meet on meet mobile and imagine that all the 50 fly races are grouped by time alone. All the kids who take more than a minute are grouped together. Half empty heats can be consolidated.

I took a quick look at a random A meet last season - they ran 6 heats of 50 fly for the three age groups of boys and girls in a 6 lane pool. There were only 24 swimmers in those heats. There were 6 swimmers in 3 heats with times of 50 sec+. If you had mixed heats, you would have had 4 heats and put the 6 slowest swimmers in one heat. Conservatively, this would have shaved 3-4 minutes of swim time, plus another few minutes to get swimmers ready, timers ready etc between heats, so 6-8 min total. Repeat for other 50’s and now your event length is 20-25 min shorter. Combine relays to fill the lanes and now your meet can drop another 10-15 min.

Regardless of fairness, nvsl might consider this rule change to allow faster meets when there is approaching weather. In a pool that can run 8 lanes, the meet can really zip by if mixed heats were allowed.

This sound awful, it would ruin the fun competitiveness of a dual meet (I’m still not convinced you’ve ever been to one).

yeah- I don't think the poster has ever been to an NVSL 'a' meet either. For one thing- they are misinterpreting the results to mean there were only '24' swimmers in '6 heats.' There is a lot wrong with this statement. The most glaring one is that the NVSL website is only showing swimmers who finished legally ('their places') and so a swimmer who DQ'd is not shown. I'm guessing the 'random' meet the poster picked had 12 dq's in the 50 fly. That's a lot FWIW, but not unheard of. Its really uncommon to have an empty lane in an 'a' meet. It probably happens more as you go down the divisions- but certainly in the top 10 divisions its highly unlikely. Now- its possibly that someone was supposed to swim, got sick, they weren't able to make a sub that morning etc- but again fairly uncommon.
It's also wrong to think of that example as '6 heats.' No there was 1 heat. There were 6 different events. For each of these events, the kids stepped to the line, had their name announced (in lane 1, 3, and 5 swimming for blah blah pool, we have Larla swimmer, lana swimmer, etc.) raced, people cheered. 'A' meets go pretty fast, they don't need to 'go faster.' Part of the fun of the meet is the formalities of it. The better equivalent is a 'finals' event of a PVS meet rather than a regular meet. Also- I strongly suspect that 'going by seed times' would basically mean you ran the events girl, boy age up. Its pretty uncommon that a 10 year old female a meet swimmer is going to beat a 12 year old female a meet swimmer, etc.

Could you run summer NVSL swim like year round swimming, focus just on seed times, and run everything mixed gender, and sort at points at the end? Yes, you 'could' but you would be doing a very different thing. There is zero benefit to this type of change. I can understand conceptually 'how to do it,' its just a really bad idea. And it gains nothing. Biological boys don't need to swim with the girls. We don't need to fundamentally change our approach to sports to accommodate this.

I took this directly from an actual nvsl meet - dq’s were in counted. There were empty lanes because kids didn’t show up or were late to the start

what is your source adn what division are you looking at? empty lanes in a 'a' meet are extraodinarily uncommon. The only source of NVSL results that I am aware of is the NVSL website- and that doesn't report DQ's- do dq's look like empty lanes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

Guess you don't like facts. Everything I stated above was true.

All of the NVSL MEN's records were set by a MAN who was 16 at the time and it you look at all stars last summer there are 15 and 16 yr olds who placed in the tip Sure 18 yrs olds got first, but I am guessing not every one of them is really 19.

You have a really bad sample set here - kids drop out like flies once they get older and legitimately fast 18 year olds are not focused on a silly summer league. They are swimming for sectionals and futures time and don’t want to waste time beating 16 year olds in a pool. This is written by someone who doesn’t know anything about real competitive swimming. There’s a reason why there are age groups and why we don’t see 16 year men swimming in the Olympics (yes Phelps was the exception).

sure that is why there have been NVSL records set by individuals who when on to swim in the Olympics. Lots of local swimmers swim in NVSL for fun. The 16 yr old record holder was one of the top college recruits and went to Olympic trials.

Right, so this record holder continued to swim in nvsl and didn’t lower the record as an 18 yo? Or no, they left after 16? That’s the point, if he had stayed until 18, times would have been even lower.

NP - kept swimming in NVSL - but there were injuries. Google it. I don’t like posting about individuals on this site, but there is already info online about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

I’m not sure

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

Guess you don't like facts. Everything I stated above was true.

All of the NVSL MEN's records were set by a MAN who was 16 at the time and it you look at all stars last summer there are 15 and 16 yr olds who placed in the tip Sure 18 yrs olds got first, but I am guessing not every one of them is really 19.

You have a really bad sample set here - kids drop out like flies once they get older and legitimately fast 18 year olds are not focused on a silly summer league. They are swimming for sectionals and futures time and don’t want to waste time beating 16 year olds in a pool. This is written by someone who doesn’t know anything about real competitive swimming. There’s a reason why there are age groups and why we don’t see 16 year men swimming in the Olympics (yes Phelps was the exception).

sure that is why there have been NVSL records set by individuals who when on to swim in the Olympics. Lots of local swimmers swim in NVSL for fun. The 16 yr old record holder was one of the top college recruits and went to Olympic trials.

Right, so this record holder continued to swim in nvsl and didn’t lower the record as an 18 yo? Or no, they left after 16? That’s the point, if he had stayed until 18, times would have been even lower.

NP - kept swimming in NVSL - but there were injuries. Google it. I don’t like posting about individuals on this site, but there is already info online about it.

I’m. Not sure why you are being so cagey. This is what the pp is talking about. https://swimswam.com/bio/anthony-grimm/
But really has nothing to do with boys swimming girls events

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt

I don't disagree with you at all. But there should be a policy out there, written. There are definite biological advantages, the same way all stars tends to be dominated by the 19 years olds that swim in 15-18. But there is a rule there.

This is not true.

If you look at the all star times yes, there are 18 year olds who may really be 19, but there are also 15 and 16 yr olds at the top. After puberty age matters less. Do you really think that a kid who is 18 and 11months vs a 19 makes a difference?

All of the male NVSL records were set by a 16 yr old. So there goes your theory that only the 19 year old dominate.

Different for men than women. The older boys/men definitely dominate. Not so for girls who develop younger

Guess you don't like facts. Everything I stated above was true.

All of the NVSL MEN's records were set by a MAN who was 16 at the time and it you look at all stars last summer there are 15 and 16 yr olds who placed in the tip Sure 18 yrs olds got first, but I am guessing not every one of them is really 19.

You have a really bad sample set here - kids drop out like flies once they get older and legitimately fast 18 year olds are not focused on a silly summer league. They are swimming for sectionals and futures time and don’t want to waste time beating 16 year olds in a pool. This is written by someone who doesn’t know anything about real competitive swimming. There’s a reason why there are age groups and why we don’t see 16 year men swimming in the Olympics (yes Phelps was the exception).

sure that is why there have been NVSL records set by individuals who when on to swim in the Olympics. Lots of local swimmers swim in NVSL for fun. The 16 yr old record holder was one of the top college recruits and went to Olympic trials.

Right, so this record holder continued to swim in nvsl and didn’t lower the record as an 18 yo? Or no, they left after 16? That’s the point, if he had stayed until 18, times would have been even lower.

NP - kept swimming in NVSL - but there were injuries. Google it. I don’t like posting about individuals on this site, but there is already info online about it.

Universally proclaiming that 15/16 year old boys have minimal disadvantages against and regularly set records over 17/18 year old boys based on results of a rec summer swim league, even one populated by elite swimmers, is short sighted. If you look at USA motivational times, which are based on all usa swimming swimmers in the us, the top 15 percent of 17-18 year old boys are swimming 50 fee scy about a half second faster than the top 15% of 15/16 year olds. Of the top 40 times for 50 free scy this past season for boys 15-18, 6 belong to 15/16 year olds, and the rest are 17/18 year olds.