What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’ve been a referee in NVSL for awhile and have been the referee for a few swim meets where kids had gender based accommodations that had been approved by the nvsl rules committee. All of those cases were trans boys who swam in the boys events. One of who had an exception from the swimwear rule to allow for a tank top (usa swim rules for boys say no swimsuit above the waist).

Have your team rep contact the nvsl rules committee.


there is a big difference between biological girls swimming in boys events and biological 16 year old boys swimming in girls events. The biological girls are not getting any advantage from this and thus are not harming another swimmer. The biological boys are definitely getting an advantage and are harming their biological girl competitors.


My personal refereeing experience to date is that to the best of my knowledge, I have only ever had trans boys swim in boys events, but never a trans girl swim in a girls event. It could have happened without me being aware, but I think most likely my experience is just limited.

I understand your position regarding the advantage, but I would take the opposite position that the role of the Referee in determining who should be legally allowed to swim in each event doesn't allow for the referee to be conducting any examination other than taking the word of the team rep from each team. So if a team put a trans girl in a girls event, even a 15-18 event, I wouldn't DQ them. But I can understand a referee taking your position that it is an advantage and DQing them. That is why I recommend that the swimmers' team rep contact the NVSL rules committee to get a decision letter that would take it out of the individual referee's hands.



I think this is the right approach - it’s definitely not appropriate to figure it out on the fly on a pool deck, but wow, what a lot to put on the rules committees since all of this is fairly new. The British triathlon association has made an open and XX female category. The us triathlon association has requirements including lab results to swim in the female category. Everyone is still figuring it out. There’s really no other activity or competition where this issue comes up, other than sports. Chess, academic competitions, music, art - all of those don’t have gender as a competition category. I don’t know what the right answer is.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’ve been a referee in NVSL for awhile and have been the referee for a few swim meets where kids had gender based accommodations that had been approved by the nvsl rules committee. All of those cases were trans boys who swam in the boys events. One of who had an exception from the swimwear rule to allow for a tank top (usa swim rules for boys say no swimsuit above the waist).

Have your team rep contact the nvsl rules committee.


there is a big difference between biological girls swimming in boys events and biological 16 year old boys swimming in girls events. The biological girls are not getting any advantage from this and thus are not harming another swimmer. The biological boys are definitely getting an advantage and are harming their biological girl competitors.


My personal refereeing experience to date is that to the best of my knowledge, I have only ever had trans boys swim in boys events, but never a trans girl swim in a girls event. It could have happened without me being aware, but I think most likely my experience is just limited.

I understand your position regarding the advantage, but I would take the opposite position that the role of the Referee in determining who should be legally allowed to swim in each event doesn't allow for the referee to be conducting any examination other than taking the word of the team rep from each team. So if a team put a trans girl in a girls event, even a 15-18 event, I wouldn't DQ them. But I can understand a referee taking your position that it is an advantage and DQing them. That is why I recommend that the swimmers' team rep contact the NVSL rules committee to get a decision letter that would take it out of the individual referee's hands.



I think this is the right approach - it’s definitely not appropriate to figure it out on the fly on a pool deck, but wow, what a lot to put on the rules committees since all of this is fairly new. The British triathlon association has made an open and XX female category. The us triathlon association has requirements including lab results to swim in the female category. Everyone is still figuring it out. There’s really no other activity or competition where this issue comes up, other than sports. Chess, academic competitions, music, art - all of those don’t have gender as a competition category. I don’t know what the right answer is.



Definitely not allowing the opposite gender to dominate because they identify as that gender, no matter the sport.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:I skimmed through the NVSL handbook but I didn’t see anything there that addresses this. It might be covered in their reference to USA Swimming rules, who themselves seem to defer to USMS rules which state:


“ 2. Athletes who identify as trans female are eligible to compete in the female category provided that the following conditions are met:

• Hormonal therapy appropriate for the female gender has been administered continuously and uninterrupted in a verifiable manner for a sufficient length of time, no less than one year, to minimize gender-related advantages in sport competitions.
• Documentation is available showing testosterone serum levels regularly measured during the last twelve months that are below 5 nmol/L. In the event of an eligibility question or protest, the athlete is responsible for providing such documentation.
• Verification of testosterone serum levels applies regardless of when the gender transition occurred and whether or not the athlete has undergone gender confirmation surgery. In the event of an eligibility question or protest, the athlete will not be required to provide any specific health or medical information other than the specified hormone treatments and levels.

Athletes who identify as female who do not meet the above requirements may participate in the female gender category, with their times removed from the results. In other words, the athlete is not eligible for official times, places, points, records, Top 10, or other forms of official recognition.”

I could be wrong though


This seems reasonable.
Anonymous
Even with testosterone suppression, it’s not reasonable to have male bodies competing against female bodies. It seems reasonable, but the science says testosterone suppression does not eliminate the physical advantages of a male body (including significant cardiovascular differences). The ref who think it’s perfectly fair to have a trans girl compete with girls needs to inform themselves. Please read this article to understand why.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7846503/
Anonymous
We swim with PAC as part of MCSL. My 10yo daughter has a trans friend M-F who swims as a girl. I’m not sure about scoring to be honest. But wears the girls swimsuit and swims in their heats etc.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Even with testosterone suppression, it’s not reasonable to have male bodies competing against female bodies. It seems reasonable, but the science says testosterone suppression does not eliminate the physical advantages of a male body (including significant cardiovascular differences). The ref who think it’s perfectly fair to have a trans girl compete with girls needs to inform themselves. Please read this article to understand why.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7846503/


I am not the ref but my comment about being reasonable means there are at least stipulations and a strong grown teen boy can’t just show up and identify as a girl and swim with girls.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:We swim with PAC as part of MCSL. My 10yo daughter has a trans friend M-F who swims as a girl. I’m not sure about scoring to be honest. But wears the girls swimsuit and swims in their heats etc.


I guess the bathing suit is similar in what it shows….

But that’s young to start treatment if that’s a requirement and 10 year old boys can be quite fast and strong.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We swim with PAC as part of MCSL. My 10yo daughter has a trans friend M-F who swims as a girl. I’m not sure about scoring to be honest. But wears the girls swimsuit and swims in their heats etc.


I guess the bathing suit is similar in what it shows….

But that’s young to start treatment if that’s a requirement and 10 year old boys can be quite fast and strong.


Eh, in swim the ten year old girls and boys are basically the same-- and that's reflected in cut times for meets. By 12, the boys have pulled ahead, but the fastest girls can keep up. By 14 it is absolutely no contest and the average boys will beat the excellent girls.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We swim with PAC as part of MCSL. My 10yo daughter has a trans friend M-F who swims as a girl. I’m not sure about scoring to be honest. But wears the girls swimsuit and swims in their heats etc.


I guess the bathing suit is similar in what it shows….

But that’s young to start treatment if that’s a requirement and 10 year old boys can be quite fast and strong.


Eh, in swim the ten year old girls and boys are basically the same-- and that's reflected in cut times for meets. By 12, the boys have pulled ahead, but the fastest girls can keep up. By 14 it is absolutely no contest and the average boys will beat the excellent girls.


Still not fair. There are many 10 year old girls faster than 10 year old boys.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt


This will destroy girls' swimming. No way the girls can legitimately compete.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:a 16 year old biological boy is going to cream biological girls. Gender is a huge advantage in swimming. Note the 15-18 all star free style swim times- 18 kids swim. the boy who came in 18th would have taken first place swimming as a girl
https://www.mynvsl.com/results/26586?back=dt


This will destroy girls' swimming. No way the girls can legitimately compete.


And they want us (parents of daughters and girls) to just accept that in the spirit of inclusion.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why can't there just be an open category for anyone that wants to swim in it? The best times get seeded in it for A meets. And then there should be a biological girl category.



If this is an option, I would suggest that all the events be run as mixed heats. Just seed them by times. It would make the whole event run faster and the results can be reported by category. We do this at the smaller usa swim club meets in my area. Instead of running separate events for 8u, 10, and 12u boys and girls, the event is called mixed 12u 50 free or whatever, and then the kids swim their heats. You can have an 9 year old girl next to a 12 year old boy if their seed times are similar. It makes the meet much faster because all the similar times are grouped and is no less fun to watch. I suppose parents who want the glory of seeing their 8 year old win heats will be disappointed, but no one minds in our meets because the kids are swimming for times and for the experience. They quickly get used to competing against opposite gender/different ages.


NP and parent of 2 year-round swimmers (one boy, one girl). I like this suggestion a lot.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:

My biological son now is identifying as female (16). My husband and I are divorced and my child can choose between Colonial league (my husband's pool) or NVSL (through me) since my child splits their time. How is this handled with the various leagues? What are the policies? And can anyone point me to the regs?




She'll be able to wear a woman's suit but will have to compete in the men's events.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In our league, the child can swim in their chosen (for lack of a better word) gender's events, but will be scored in their biological gender's events. So your trans daughter could swim with the girls but will appear on the meet results as a boy.



This is probably the fairest approach


The fairest approach would be to have them swim in their own category for Trans girls.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In our league, the child can swim in their chosen (for lack of a better word) gender's events, but will be scored in their biological gender's events. So your trans daughter could swim with the girls but will appear on the meet results as a boy.



This is probably the fairest approach


The fairest approach would be to have them swim in their own category for Trans girls.


The heart of this debate is whether to prioritize validating gender identity or fairness in sports. Fairness is undoubtably the priority when people suggest an open category or a trans male to female category, but not a separate trans female to male category. No one is concerned about a trans male outclassing XY males, so no one argues that they shouldn’t compete with them. Then there is a practicality issue. There are probably not enough trans girls to compete against each other - is she supposed to swim by herself in every event?

If respecting gender identity was the priority, I think trans girls who transition after puberty should compete as girls. But if fairness in sport is the priority, then it should be an open category. Sports should state (and admit) that their categories of male and female are not gender identity categories, but whether development was testosterone influenced or not. That’s what people should care about if the priority is fairness - did this kid develop muscle strength, ability to gain muscle with resistance training, bone growth, etc with testosterone or not? Obviously there are many nuanced cases that are not black and white under this umbrella, so the answer is not that simple.
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