Less Selective College but the right fit?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I keep trying to justify a reason for her to go to the arts school because it's so highly ranked (assuming she would get in). She does love art, but I swore I would not have a kid who majored in something impractical--like I did. Up side--she'd probably get a scholarship and with all of her AP credits she could stay for 5-6 years as an undergrad and get a degree in art and something else more "practical." And then we'd have tons of money to send her wherever she wanted for grad school.

VCU has one of the best fine arts program in the country. One way to look at it is if your child is going to major in art, it’s a much better financial decision to go to a top program for in-state rates …and likely merit on top. I wold also hope that VCU Arts prepares students to be working professionals in that field. Have you been to accepted student events?

Outcomes for VCU Arts are shitty

Outcomes for ALL art schools are shitty! I’m the mom with the kid who likes VCU. I should be clear. She’s a Junior, so we haven’t even applied. I dont even know if she would get in to the art program. I was saying that being at the art school would make me feel like she was in a well ranking program. But YES! I have several degrees in the arts, and I have always made nowhere as much money as my husband, who is in tech.

I did say—well—if you do want to study art and you got in, there would be plenty of money and time left over to double major. She also really likes physics. And with all of her AP credits, she could probably graduate with both degrees in 5 years. CS would take longer. I would never be able to afford for her to take all that time at a really expensive school. It might not be physics. I don’t really care. Just something she can either go to grad school for or make a decent living with.

+1 This is how I feel for my kid too. Strong academically but also really loves art and wants to go to art school (Freshman now so even further from reality). I like VCU as an option for the same reason--but I don't think you can casually double major right? She would have to do a BFA and a BS? I think mine would like the tech side of art (e.g., kinetic imaging at VCU or creative technologies at VT) and CS. Both of these schools are relatively inexpensive so I wouldn't mind if it took longer to complete.

My husband went to Tech and hated it, so that would be a no go for us, and she needs to be in a really liberal environment because of gender stuff, or I would say Tech probably has some great programs. That's one reason VCU would be good for her--very liberal and queer friendly. But it's not like it's the ONLY liberal urban school in a medium sized city. It just happens to be in state, which is nice.

I'm pretty sure there was a recent thread where people were discussing programs that combined art and computer science. VCU really doesn't seem to have this, although you can double major, but you're right that I don't think they really make it easy--which is kind of weird? You would think they would, since the two complement one another so well.

I don't think the kinetic imaging program is REALLY geared toward any practical aspects of mixing tech and art. I was specifically told it was more focused on gallery art. It does seem sort of open ended, so maybe they would be more open to you double dipping? But I don't know enough about the programs yet to judge.

However, other majors, like physics, applied math, accounting, statistics....actually seem surprisingly easy to complete in 5 years if you've accumulated enough AP credits going in. Now, what you would do with your double major in art and physics, I am not sure. Or art and accounting? You give up and go to law school, probably? Or grad school for physics, if someone will have you?

I’m the PP that asked about the outcomes from VCUArts. I’m curious when your dd went on college visits did the art programs, including the one at the more selective school, discuss internships and jobs?

We really didn't look at other art programs. I was not encouraging her to do one. She is strong in STEM, and she'd been talking about majoring in physics. However, in her free time, most of what she likes to do is art. I am a little sorry I brought it up because now I think she's excited about the idea, and although I think it would probably be fun a fun college experience, I don't think it is practical in the long run. I think it's fine, as long as you have some kind of back up plan or graduate school plan or something like that. So--no. Although I would say that all the schools kind of talk about various internships and jobs to some extent. Northeastern was ALL ABOUT the co-ops because that's kind of their thing. I don't think W&M really mentioned them at all, and that was a long tour. It sort of depends on the tour guide.

That's funny because W&M ranks really high in terms of their students getting internships and working on research projects etc. while in school. You'd think they would talk them up more.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I keep trying to justify a reason for her to go to the arts school because it's so highly ranked (assuming she would get in). She does love art, but I swore I would not have a kid who majored in something impractical--like I did. Up side--she'd probably get a scholarship and with all of her AP credits she could stay for 5-6 years as an undergrad and get a degree in art and something else more "practical." And then we'd have tons of money to send her wherever she wanted for grad school.

VCU has one of the best fine arts program in the country. One way to look at it is if your child is going to major in art, it’s a much better financial decision to go to a top program for in-state rates …and likely merit on top. I wold also hope that VCU Arts prepares students to be working professionals in that field. Have you been to accepted student events?

Outcomes for VCU Arts are shitty

Outcomes for ALL art schools are shitty! I’m the mom with the kid who likes VCU. I should be clear. She’s a Junior, so we haven’t even applied. I dont even know if she would get in to the art program. I was saying that being at the art school would make me feel like she was in a well ranking program. But YES! I have several degrees in the arts, and I have always made nowhere as much money as my husband, who is in tech.

I did say—well—if you do want to study art and you got in, there would be plenty of money and time left over to double major. She also really likes physics. And with all of her AP credits, she could probably graduate with both degrees in 5 years. CS would take longer. I would never be able to afford for her to take all that time at a really expensive school. It might not be physics. I don’t really care. Just something she can either go to grad school for or make a decent living with.

+1 This is how I feel for my kid too. Strong academically but also really loves art and wants to go to art school (Freshman now so even further from reality). I like VCU as an option for the same reason--but I don't think you can casually double major right? She would have to do a BFA and a BS? I think mine would like the tech side of art (e.g., kinetic imaging at VCU or creative technologies at VT) and CS. Both of these schools are relatively inexpensive so I wouldn't mind if it took longer to complete.

My husband went to Tech and hated it, so that would be a no go for us, and she needs to be in a really liberal environment because of gender stuff, or I would say Tech probably has some great programs. That's one reason VCU would be good for her--very liberal and queer friendly. But it's not like it's the ONLY liberal urban school in a medium sized city. It just happens to be in state, which is nice.

I'm pretty sure there was a recent thread where people were discussing programs that combined art and computer science. VCU really doesn't seem to have this, although you can double major, but you're right that I don't think they really make it easy--which is kind of weird? You would think they would, since the two complement one another so well.

I don't think the kinetic imaging program is REALLY geared toward any practical aspects of mixing tech and art. I was specifically told it was more focused on gallery art. It does seem sort of open ended, so maybe they would be more open to you double dipping? But I don't know enough about the programs yet to judge.

However, other majors, like physics, applied math, accounting, statistics....actually seem surprisingly easy to complete in 5 years if you've accumulated enough AP credits going in. Now, what you would do with your double major in art and physics, I am not sure. Or art and accounting? You give up and go to law school, probably? Or grad school for physics, if someone will have you?

I’m the PP that asked about the outcomes from VCUArts. I’m curious when your dd went on college visits did the art programs, including the one at the more selective school, discuss internships and jobs?

We really didn't look at other art programs. I was not encouraging her to do one. She is strong in STEM, and she'd been talking about majoring in physics. However, in her free time, most of what she likes to do is art. I am a little sorry I brought it up because now I think she's excited about the idea, and although I think it would probably be fun a fun college experience, I don't think it is practical in the long run. I think it's fine, as long as you have some kind of back up plan or graduate school plan or something like that. So--no. Although I would say that all the schools kind of talk about various internships and jobs to some extent. Northeastern was ALL ABOUT the co-ops because that's kind of their thing. I don't think W&M really mentioned them at all, and that was a long tour. It sort of depends on the tour guide.

That's funny because W&M ranks really high in terms of their students getting internships and working on research projects etc. while in school. You'd think they would talk them up more.

William and Mary had a TERRIBLE tour, which made me sad. I really wanted my kid to love it. First, it was wayyyy too long. Second, the tour guide discussed random buildings (which all look alike at W&M) instead of using them as examples of factors of why you might attend the school. I tried to ask some questions and she just kept saying she would get to them and never did.

I think the tour guides are the MOST important reason you like or dislike a school. I know they are students, so I try to give them all respect and positivity, but I was seriously sad about how disappointing that tour was. I feel like if it had been a kid more like my kid, she might have ended up with an entirely different view of the school.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I keep trying to justify a reason for her to go to the arts school because it's so highly ranked (assuming she would get in). She does love art, but I swore I would not have a kid who majored in something impractical--like I did. Up side--she'd probably get a scholarship and with all of her AP credits she could stay for 5-6 years as an undergrad and get a degree in art and something else more "practical." And then we'd have tons of money to send her wherever she wanted for grad school.

VCU has one of the best fine arts program in the country. One way to look at it is if your child is going to major in art, it’s a much better financial decision to go to a top program for in-state rates …and likely merit on top. I wold also hope that VCU Arts prepares students to be working professionals in that field. Have you been to accepted student events?

Outcomes for VCU Arts are shitty

How depressing that

Outcomes for ALL art schools are shitty! I’m the mom with the kid who likes VCU. I should be clear. She’s a Junior, so we haven’t even applied. I dont even know if she would get in to the art program. I was saying that being at the art school would make me feel like she was in a well ranking program. But YES! I have several degrees in the arts, and I have always made nowhere as much money as my husband, who is in tech.

I did say—well—if you do want to study art and you got in, there would be plenty of money and time left over to double major. She also really likes physics. And with all of her AP credits, she could probably graduate with both degrees in 5 years. CS would take longer. I would never be able to afford for her to take all that time at a really expensive school. It might not be physics. I don’t really care. Just something she can either go to grad school for or make a decent living with.

+1 This is how I feel for my kid too. Strong academically but also really loves art and wants to go to art school (Freshman now so even further from reality). I like VCU as an option for the same reason--but I don't think you can casually double major right? She would have to do a BFA and a BS? I think mine would like the tech side of art (e.g., kinetic imaging at VCU or creative technologies at VT) and CS. Both of these schools are relatively inexpensive so I wouldn't mind if it took longer to complete.

My husband went to Tech and hated it, so that would be a no go for us, and she needs to be in a really liberal environment because of gender stuff, or I would say Tech probably has some great programs. That's one reason VCU would be good for her--very liberal and queer friendly. But it's not like it's the ONLY liberal urban school in a medium sized city. It just happens to be in state, which is nice.

I'm pretty sure there was a recent thread where people were discussing programs that combined art and computer science. VCU really doesn't seem to have this, although you can double major, but you're right that I don't think they really make it easy--which is kind of weird? You would think they would, since the two complement one another so well.

I don't think the kinetic imaging program is REALLY geared toward any practical aspects of mixing tech and art. I was specifically told it was more focused on gallery art. It does seem sort of open ended, so maybe they would be more open to you double dipping? But I don't know enough about the programs yet to judge.

However, other majors, like physics, applied math, accounting, statistics....actually seem surprisingly easy to complete in 5 years if you've accumulated enough AP credits going in. Now, what you would do with your double major in art and physics, I am not sure. Or art and accounting? You give up and go to law school, probably? Or grad school for physics, if someone will have you?

I’m the PP that asked about the outcomes from VCUArts. I’m curious when your dd went on college visits did the art programs, including the one at the more selective school, discuss internships and jobs?

We really didn't look at other art programs. I was not encouraging her to do one. She is strong in STEM, and she'd been talking about majoring in physics. However, in her free time, most of what she likes to do is art. I am a little sorry I brought it up because now I think she's excited about the idea, and although I think it would probably be fun a fun college experience, I don't think it is practical in the long run. I think it's fine, as long as you have some kind of back up plan or graduate school plan or something like that. So--no. Although I would say that all the schools kind of talk about various internships and jobs to some extent. Northeastern was ALL ABOUT the co-ops because that's kind of their thing. I don't think W&M really mentioned them at all, and that was a long tour. It sort of depends on the tour guide.

How depressing that you actively hope your kid abandons her hobbies and interests. She doesn’t need to make art her career
But good on her if she can cultivate that interest and maintain it as part of her life even post
College.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Go to the admitted students day at both schools with an open mind. How far apart in rankings are we talking? My DC is in at a private school ranked around 40 (well known in major), but really prefers a public school admitted to that ranks around 120. I feel pretty strongly DC should go with the higher ranked school. DC likes both schools and likes the social scene, football games, etc. at the lower ranked school.

Please let your DC pick themselves! Don't keep mentioning the "rankings" It is their college experience and anyone who can get admitted to ~#40 is smart and motivated and will do well anywhere they go. But they will do best where they are happiest. Imagine if you force them to pick ~#40 and they are miserable--they will blame you forever and that would not be the type of relationship I'd want with my kid

But did you read the part where I said DC preferred the lower ranked school because of the football games, social scene, etc at a big state school? You think this is a valid reason to prefer one school over another when they are so vastly apart on the rankings?

Yes. Absolutely. A kid who’s a great fit for the social scene at a school can go on to make a fortune at a job where social skills are a big deal.

Most people who make a lot of money do well because they’re bright enough and have great social skills, ot because they’re rocket scientists.

[Anonymous]

College rankings aren't about bragging rights but about more resources, a more capable student body, and greater post graduate prospects.

I don't think it's a reasonable decision to set all that aside - and i think the concept of "fit" is exaggerated (many colleges can fit, and "the right fit" can sometimes be just a euphemism for avoiding character-building challenges. Let's be realistic: none of these schools are like boot camp). I frankly don't understand why the other ("more selective") school that your kid liked well enough to apply to three months ago suddenly isn't a good "fit." How reliable are 17 year olds' understanding of what they're going to want from college over four years (and whether these colleges would or wouldn't be able to provide it -- unless you're choosing between West Point and Oberlin, many of these student bodies have similar subsets of students anyway)? If your kid thought the 'more selective' school was a potentially good fit when applying three months ago and doesn't now, how do you both know their mind won't change again in another three or six months? Are the reasons for their cooling on the more competitive school legitimate (eg, your kid visted a rural SLAC and realized they won't be able to survive for years in an environment like that...), or are they unwarranted (eg, insecurity about how they'll perform -- despite being admitted?) or secondary (eg proximity to restaurants and shopping? Dislike of gothic architecture? Not liking someone who went there from their high school?)

You want to be supportive and that's great, but I think you and your kid should have a pretty open, specific discussion about why they want to spend four years (and $) at a school that is judged as offering a not as strong education. This may be a situation where it's a well-considered and understandable choice, but it may also be just a bout of adolescent anxiety and the best support you can offer is to steer them to the stronger option.

I know it's sort of expected here on DCUM to say "everything your Blessed Precious wants is legitimate and should be supported by you" -- but sometimes it actually isn't. And i also think sometimes there's too much "you're all winners" pressure here to dismiss or denigrate the college rankings, which shouldn't be slavishly followed (and minor distinctions probably don't mean much), but in the main are actually pretty thoughtful efforts to measure the quality of the educational experience each college provides.

Btw, you use the term 'less selective" in your title. I'm talking about rankings (ie academic quality). Not "selectivity" of admissions, which isn't always a reliable predictor of educational quality.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I keep trying to justify a reason for her to go to the arts school because it's so highly ranked (assuming she would get in). She does love art, but I swore I would not have a kid who majored in something impractical--like I did. Up side--she'd probably get a scholarship and with all of her AP credits she could stay for 5-6 years as an undergrad and get a degree in art and something else more "practical." And then we'd have tons of money to send her wherever she wanted for grad school.

VCU has one of the best fine arts program in the country. One way to look at it is if your child is going to major in art, it’s a much better financial decision to go to a top program for in-state rates …and likely merit on top. I wold also hope that VCU Arts prepares students to be working professionals in that field. Have you been to accepted student events?

Outcomes for VCU Arts are shitty

How depressing that

Outcomes for ALL art schools are shitty! I’m the mom with the kid who likes VCU. I should be clear. She’s a Junior, so we haven’t even applied. I dont even know if she would get in to the art program. I was saying that being at the art school would make me feel like she was in a well ranking program. But YES! I have several degrees in the arts, and I have always made nowhere as much money as my husband, who is in tech.

I did say—well—if you do want to study art and you got in, there would be plenty of money and time left over to double major. She also really likes physics. And with all of her AP credits, she could probably graduate with both degrees in 5 years. CS would take longer. I would never be able to afford for her to take all that time at a really expensive school. It might not be physics. I don’t really care. Just something she can either go to grad school for or make a decent living with.

+1 This is how I feel for my kid too. Strong academically but also really loves art and wants to go to art school (Freshman now so even further from reality). I like VCU as an option for the same reason--but I don't think you can casually double major right? She would have to do a BFA and a BS? I think mine would like the tech side of art (e.g., kinetic imaging at VCU or creative technologies at VT) and CS. Both of these schools are relatively inexpensive so I wouldn't mind if it took longer to complete.

My husband went to Tech and hated it, so that would be a no go for us, and she needs to be in a really liberal environment because of gender stuff, or I would say Tech probably has some great programs. That's one reason VCU would be good for her--very liberal and queer friendly. But it's not like it's the ONLY liberal urban school in a medium sized city. It just happens to be in state, which is nice.

I'm pretty sure there was a recent thread where people were discussing programs that combined art and computer science. VCU really doesn't seem to have this, although you can double major, but you're right that I don't think they really make it easy--which is kind of weird? You would think they would, since the two complement one another so well.

I don't think the kinetic imaging program is REALLY geared toward any practical aspects of mixing tech and art. I was specifically told it was more focused on gallery art. It does seem sort of open ended, so maybe they would be more open to you double dipping? But I don't know enough about the programs yet to judge.

However, other majors, like physics, applied math, accounting, statistics....actually seem surprisingly easy to complete in 5 years if you've accumulated enough AP credits going in. Now, what you would do with your double major in art and physics, I am not sure. Or art and accounting? You give up and go to law school, probably? Or grad school for physics, if someone will have you?

I’m the PP that asked about the outcomes from VCUArts. I’m curious when your dd went on college visits did the art programs, including the one at the more selective school, discuss internships and jobs?

We really didn't look at other art programs. I was not encouraging her to do one. She is strong in STEM, and she'd been talking about majoring in physics. However, in her free time, most of what she likes to do is art. I am a little sorry I brought it up because now I think she's excited about the idea, and although I think it would probably be fun a fun college experience, I don't think it is practical in the long run. I think it's fine, as long as you have some kind of back up plan or graduate school plan or something like that. So--no. Although I would say that all the schools kind of talk about various internships and jobs to some extent. Northeastern was ALL ABOUT the co-ops because that's kind of their thing. I don't think W&M really mentioned them at all, and that was a long tour. It sort of depends on the tour guide.

How depressing that you actively hope your kid abandons her hobbies and interests. She doesn’t need to make art her career
But good on her if she can cultivate that interest and maintain it as part of her life even post
College.

Where did I say that I was actively hoping my kid abandoned her hobbies and interests? She'd literally never mentioned going to art school before we toured VCU. Art is something she does mostly at home because she enjoys it. That is also different than going full time to art school.

I actually looked pretty hard to see if there was a way to double major/dual major, but the school of the arts makes that very difficult. I very much hope that she is able to take some art classes in whatever college she attends. I think she may end up liking the classes better within a LAC curriculum where she can pick and the ones she's most interested in rather than being in a very prescribed curriculum.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I keep trying to justify a reason for her to go to the arts school because it's so highly ranked (assuming she would get in). She does love art, but I swore I would not have a kid who majored in something impractical--like I did. Up side--she'd probably get a scholarship and with all of her AP credits she could stay for 5-6 years as an undergrad and get a degree in art and something else more "practical." And then we'd have tons of money to send her wherever she wanted for grad school.

VCU has one of the best fine arts program in the country. One way to look at it is if your child is going to major in art, it’s a much better financial decision to go to a top program for in-state rates …and likely merit on top. I wold also hope that VCU Arts prepares students to be working professionals in that field. Have you been to accepted student events?

Outcomes for VCU Arts are shitty

Outcomes for ALL art schools are shitty! I’m the mom with the kid who likes VCU. I should be clear. She’s a Junior, so we haven’t even applied. I dont even know if she would get in to the art program. I was saying that being at the art school would make me feel like she was in a well ranking program. But YES! I have several degrees in the arts, and I have always made nowhere as much money as my husband, who is in tech.

I did say—well—if you do want to study art and you got in, there would be plenty of money and time left over to double major. She also really likes physics. And with all of her AP credits, she could probably graduate with both degrees in 5 years. CS would take longer. I would never be able to afford for her to take all that time at a really expensive school. It might not be physics. I don’t really care. Just something she can either go to grad school for or make a decent living with.

+1 This is how I feel for my kid too. Strong academically but also really loves art and wants to go to art school (Freshman now so even further from reality). I like VCU as an option for the same reason--but I don't think you can casually double major right? She would have to do a BFA and a BS? I think mine would like the tech side of art (e.g., kinetic imaging at VCU or creative technologies at VT) and CS. Both of these schools are relatively inexpensive so I wouldn't mind if it took longer to complete.

My husband went to Tech and hated it, so that would be a no go for us, and she needs to be in a really liberal environment because of gender stuff, or I would say Tech probably has some great programs. That's one reason VCU would be good for her--very liberal and queer friendly. But it's not like it's the ONLY liberal urban school in a medium sized city. It just happens to be in state, which is nice.

I'm pretty sure there was a recent thread where people were discussing programs that combined art and computer science. VCU really doesn't seem to have this, although you can double major, but you're right that I don't think they really make it easy--which is kind of weird? You would think they would, since the two complement one another so well.

I don't think the kinetic imaging program is REALLY geared toward any practical aspects of mixing tech and art. I was specifically told it was more focused on gallery art. It does seem sort of open ended, so maybe they would be more open to you double dipping? But I don't know enough about the programs yet to judge.

However, other majors, like physics, applied math, accounting, statistics....actually seem surprisingly easy to complete in 5 years if you've accumulated enough AP credits going in. Now, what you would do with your double major in art and physics, I am not sure. Or art and accounting? You give up and go to law school, probably? Or grad school for physics, if someone will have you?

I’m the PP that asked about the outcomes from VCUArts. I’m curious when your dd went on college visits did the art programs, including the one at the more selective school, discuss internships and jobs?

We really didn't look at other art programs. I was not encouraging her to do one. She is strong in STEM, and she'd been talking about majoring in physics. However, in her free time, most of what she likes to do is art. I am a little sorry I brought it up because now I think she's excited about the idea, and although I think it would probably be fun a fun college experience, I don't think it is practical in the long run. I think it's fine, as long as you have some kind of back up plan or graduate school plan or something like that. So--no. Although I would say that all the schools kind of talk about various internships and jobs to some extent. Northeastern was ALL ABOUT the co-ops because that's kind of their thing. I don't think W&M really mentioned them at all, and that was a long tour. It sort of depends on the tour guide.

That's funny because W&M ranks really high in terms of their students getting internships and working on research projects etc. while in school. You'd think they would talk them up more.

William and Mary had a TERRIBLE tour, which made me sad. I really wanted my kid to love it. First, it was wayyyy too long. Second, the tour guide discussed random buildings (which all look alike at W&M) instead of using them as examples of factors of why you might attend the school. I tried to ask some questions and she just kept saying she would get to them and never did.

I think the tour guides are the MOST important reason you like or dislike a school. I know they are students, so I try to give them all respect and positivity, but I was seriously sad about how disappointing that tour was. I feel like if it had been a kid more like my kid, she might have ended up with an entirely different view of the school.

YOu can't pick a school based upon a tour guide! Go back and visit. My Ds didn't like the first UVA tour (hot and muggy and couldn't see classrooms). He loved it on the second. Go back

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I keep trying to justify a reason for her to go to the arts school because it's so highly ranked (assuming she would get in). She does love art, but I swore I would not have a kid who majored in something impractical--like I did. Up side--she'd probably get a scholarship and with all of her AP credits she could stay for 5-6 years as an undergrad and get a degree in art and something else more "practical." And then we'd have tons of money to send her wherever she wanted for grad school.

VCU has one of the best fine arts program in the country. One way to look at it is if your child is going to major in art, it’s a much better financial decision to go to a top program for in-state rates …and likely merit on top. I wold also hope that VCU Arts prepares students to be working professionals in that field. Have you been to accepted student events?

Outcomes for VCU Arts are shitty

Outcomes for ALL art schools are shitty! I’m the mom with the kid who likes VCU. I should be clear. She’s a Junior, so we haven’t even applied. I dont even know if she would get in to the art program. I was saying that being at the art school would make me feel like she was in a well ranking program. But YES! I have several degrees in the arts, and I have always made nowhere as much money as my husband, who is in tech.

I did say—well—if you do want to study art and you got in, there would be plenty of money and time left over to double major. She also really likes physics. And with all of her AP credits, she could probably graduate with both degrees in 5 years. CS would take longer. I would never be able to afford for her to take all that time at a really expensive school. It might not be physics. I don’t really care. Just something she can either go to grad school for or make a decent living with.

+1 This is how I feel for my kid too. Strong academically but also really loves art and wants to go to art school (Freshman now so even further from reality). I like VCU as an option for the same reason--but I don't think you can casually double major right? She would have to do a BFA and a BS? I think mine would like the tech side of art (e.g., kinetic imaging at VCU or creative technologies at VT) and CS. Both of these schools are relatively inexpensive so I wouldn't mind if it took longer to complete.

My husband went to Tech and hated it, so that would be a no go for us, and she needs to be in a really liberal environment because of gender stuff, or I would say Tech probably has some great programs. That's one reason VCU would be good for her--very liberal and queer friendly. But it's not like it's the ONLY liberal urban school in a medium sized city. It just happens to be in state, which is nice.

I'm pretty sure there was a recent thread where people were discussing programs that combined art and computer science. VCU really doesn't seem to have this, although you can double major, but you're right that I don't think they really make it easy--which is kind of weird? You would think they would, since the two complement one another so well.

I don't think the kinetic imaging program is REALLY geared toward any practical aspects of mixing tech and art. I was specifically told it was more focused on gallery art. It does seem sort of open ended, so maybe they would be more open to you double dipping? But I don't know enough about the programs yet to judge.

However, other majors, like physics, applied math, accounting, statistics....actually seem surprisingly easy to complete in 5 years if you've accumulated enough AP credits going in. Now, what you would do with your double major in art and physics, I am not sure. Or art and accounting? You give up and go to law school, probably? Or grad school for physics, if someone will have you?

I’m the PP that asked about the outcomes from VCUArts. I’m curious when your dd went on college visits did the art programs, including the one at the more selective school, discuss internships and jobs?

We really didn't look at other art programs. I was not encouraging her to do one. She is strong in STEM, and she'd been talking about majoring in physics. However, in her free time, most of what she likes to do is art. I am a little sorry I brought it up because now I think she's excited about the idea, and although I think it would probably be fun a fun college experience, I don't think it is practical in the long run. I think it's fine, as long as you have some kind of back up plan or graduate school plan or something like that. So--no. Although I would say that all the schools kind of talk about various internships and jobs to some extent. Northeastern was ALL ABOUT the co-ops because that's kind of their thing. I don't think W&M really mentioned them at all, and that was a long tour. It sort of depends on the tour guide.

That's funny because W&M ranks really high in terms of their students getting internships and working on research projects etc. while in school. You'd think they would talk them up more.

William and Mary had a TERRIBLE tour, which made me sad. I really wanted my kid to love it. First, it was wayyyy too long. Second, the tour guide discussed random buildings (which all look alike at W&M) instead of using them as examples of factors of why you might attend the school. I tried to ask some questions and she just kept saying she would get to them and never did.

I think the tour guides are the MOST important reason you like or dislike a school. I know they are students, so I try to give them all respect and positivity, but I was seriously sad about how disappointing that tour was. I feel like if it had been a kid more like my kid, she might have ended up with an entirely different view of the school.

YOu can't pick a school based upon a tour guide! Go back and visit. My Ds didn't like the first UVA tour (hot and muggy and couldn't see classrooms). He loved it on the second. Go back

Do you go back and take another tour? Do you find a student your kid might have some things in common with and have them shoe you around? I mean, if you don’t use the tour, how can you really decide at most schools? Many of them are pretty similar

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:College rankings aren't about bragging rights but about more resources, a more capable student body, and greater post graduate prospects.

I don't think it's a reasonable decision to set all that aside - and i think the concept of "fit" is exaggerated (many colleges can fit, and "the right fit" can sometimes be just a euphemism for avoiding character-building challenges. Let's be realistic: none of these schools are like boot camp). I frankly don't understand why the other ("more selective") school that your kid liked well enough to apply to three months ago suddenly isn't a good "fit." How reliable are 17 year olds' understanding of what they're going to want from college over four years (and whether these colleges would or wouldn't be able to provide it -- unless you're choosing between West Point and Oberlin, many of these student bodies have similar subsets of students anyway)? If your kid thought the 'more selective' school was a potentially good fit when applying three months ago and doesn't now, how do you both know their mind won't change again in another three or six months? Are the reasons for their cooling on the more competitive school legitimate (eg, your kid visted a rural SLAC and realized they won't be able to survive for years in an environment like that...), or are they unwarranted (eg, insecurity about how they'll perform -- despite being admitted?) or secondary (eg proximity to restaurants and shopping? Dislike of gothic architecture? Not liking someone who went there from their high school?)

You want to be supportive and that's great, but I think you and your kid should have a pretty open, specific discussion about why they want to spend four years (and $) at a school that is judged as offering a not as strong education. This may be a situation where it's a well-considered and understandable choice, but it may also be just a bout of adolescent anxiety and the best support you can offer is to steer them to the stronger option.

I know it's sort of expected here on DCUM to say "everything your Blessed Precious wants is legitimate and should be supported by you" -- but sometimes it actually isn't. And i also think sometimes there's too much "you're all winners" pressure here to dismiss or denigrate the college rankings, which shouldn't be slavishly followed (and minor distinctions probably don't mean much), but in the main are actually pretty thoughtful efforts to measure the quality of the educational experience each college provides.

Btw, you use the term 'less selective" in your title. I'm talking about rankings (ie academic quality). Not "selectivity" of admissions, which isn't always a reliable predictor of educational quality.

The rankings are only a guide and really are bogus in many cases.

For instance: the undergrad engineering rankings for USNWR are "based on surveys of deans and senior faculty members at engineering programs". It's a popularity contest. I can only imagine the behind scenes negotiations between universities.
It's why programs like WPI/clarkson/Stevens IT are lower ranked simply because many have not heard about them. Smaller, not as well known nationally schools will simply not move up in rankings with this criteria.

So we use them as an initial guide, but visiting gives a MUCH better indicator. And yes, a 17/18yo can tell where they will fit in best. My kid will do their best if they are somewhere THEY want to be. If we as parents "force" them into a decision that we think is right they might regret that.

fyi---my own kids all ended up at what I thought was their "top choice" after first visits. When they set foot on a campus that is the right fit you just see it in their response. All are succeeding/did succeed at college---I think being at the right place goes a long way to making this happen and most importantly for them to be happy while doing it!

[Anonymous]

The rankings are only a guide and really are bogus in many cases.

For instance: the undergrad engineering rankings for USNWR are "based on surveys of deans and senior faculty members at engineering programs". It's a popularity contest. I can only imagine the behind scenes negotiations between universities.
It's why programs like WPI/clarkson/Stevens IT are lower ranked simply because many have not heard about them. Smaller, not as well known nationally schools will simply not move up in rankings with this criteria.

So we use them as an initial guide, but visiting gives a MUCH better indicator. And yes, a 17/18yo can tell where they will fit in best. My kid will do their best if they are somewhere THEY want to be. If we as parents "force" them into a decision that we think is right they might regret that.

fyi---my own kids all ended up at what I thought was their "top choice" after first visits. When they set foot on a campus that is the right fit you just see it in their response. All are succeeding/did succeed at college---I think being at the right place goes a long way to making this happen and most importantly for them to be happy while doing it!

okay, sure, all the different ranking systems are bogus and the products of behind the scenes conspiracies (despite the fact that they explicitly lay out their criteria), a short visit is the best way to gauge what a school will be like for four years, and your 17/18 year old has the best judgment about an institution they have no firsthand experience of.

or, in the real world:
- ranking systems look (in exhaustive detail) at the qualifications of students who attend, the resources available to them, and the post-graduate outcomes for each school
- a short visit is incredibly subjective and usually overwhelmed by irrelevant factors (like the weather or the guide's personality or the time of day or whether the college was on vacation when you visited) or statistically insignificant factors (the 10-20 students your eyes happened upon during the tour, or the architecture of the main buildings).
- 17/18 year olds don't have perfect judgment about adult decisions, and they're particularly ill-equipped to gauge what they'll like or dislike about college since they've never been. No one is suggesting their views are worthless or irrelevant, but what they think will matter a lot to them freshman fall will almost certainly not matter nearly as much when they're juniors or seniors (or when they look back at the choice they made, and why, in the years to come).
- no one is suggesting you "force" a kid to attend a school they don't want to. Presumably they applied to a school because they thought it was potentially of interest. The point is, if they say to you "Counter-intuitively, of the schools I was admitted to, I want to select the less good option" it's not just fair but actually a parental responsibility to say "okay, I want to see you succeed and I know a fair amount about college myself and i'm paying for this, so tell me exactly why you want to choose the school that most people feel doesn't do as much to set you up for success, and let's talk about that."

Or you can insist (IN CAPS) "my kid is so smart they're always right about their needs, the empirical data suggesting they're actually not right is bogus and a conspiracy, my role is to endorse whatever my kid decides is best, I'm going to tell them all schools are the same anyway, and there's nothing better for me than seeing their happy smile when they get what they want." Some might see that as both spoiling the kid and abdicating one's parental responsibilities, but it's certainly a well trod path on DCUM and in the DMV so you wouldn't be alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The rankings are only a guide and really are bogus in many cases.

For instance: the undergrad engineering rankings for USNWR are "based on surveys of deans and senior faculty members at engineering programs". It's a popularity contest. I can only imagine the behind scenes negotiations between universities.
It's why programs like WPI/clarkson/Stevens IT are lower ranked simply because many have not heard about them. Smaller, not as well known nationally schools will simply not move up in rankings with this criteria.

So we use them as an initial guide, but visiting gives a MUCH better indicator. And yes, a 17/18yo can tell where they will fit in best. My kid will do their best if they are somewhere THEY want to be. If we as parents "force" them into a decision that we think is right they might regret that.

fyi---my own kids all ended up at what I thought was their "top choice" after first visits. When they set foot on a campus that is the right fit you just see it in their response. All are succeeding/did succeed at college---I think being at the right place goes a long way to making this happen and most importantly for them to be happy while doing it!

okay, sure, all the different ranking systems are bogus and the products of behind the scenes conspiracies (despite the fact that they explicitly lay out their criteria), a short visit is the best way to gauge what a school will be like for four years, and your 17/18 year old has the best judgment about an institution they have no firsthand experience of.

or, in the real world:
- ranking systems look (in exhaustive detail) at the qualifications of students who attend, the resources available to them, and the post-graduate outcomes for each school
- a short visit is incredibly subjective and usually overwhelmed by irrelevant factors (like the weather or the guide's personality or the time of day or whether the college was on vacation when you visited) or statistically insignificant factors (the 10-20 students your eyes happened upon during the tour, or the architecture of the main buildings).
- 17/18 year olds don't have perfect judgment about adult decisions, and they're particularly ill-equipped to gauge what they'll like or dislike about college since they've never been. No one is suggesting their views are worthless or irrelevant, but what they think will matter a lot to them freshman fall will almost certainly not matter nearly as much when they're juniors or seniors (or when they look back at the choice they made, and why, in the years to come).
- no one is suggesting you "force" a kid to attend a school they don't want to. Presumably they applied to a school because they thought it was potentially of interest. The point is, if they say to you "Counter-intuitively, of the schools I was admitted to, I want to select the less good option" it's not just fair but actually a parental responsibility to say "okay, I want to see you succeed and I know a fair amount about college myself and i'm paying for this, so tell me exactly why you want to choose the school that most people feel doesn't do as much to set you up for success, and let's talk about that."

Or you can insist (IN CAPS) "my kid is so smart they're always right about their needs, the empirical data suggesting they're actually not right is bogus and a conspiracy, my role is to endorse whatever my kid decides is best, I'm going to tell them all schools are the same anyway, and there's nothing better for me than seeing their happy smile when they get what they want." Some might see that as both spoiling the kid and abdicating one's parental responsibilities, but it's certainly a well trod path on DCUM and in the DMV so you wouldn't be alone.

"ranking systems look (in exhaustive detail) at the qualifications of students who attend, the resources available to them, and the post-graduate outcomes for each school"

NP--I don't know about the rest, but the PP is way closer to the truth than you are about how the rankings of individual departments are created. Here's a direct quote from USNWR:

"Rankings are based solely on surveys of engineering deans and senior faculty at accredited programs."

The business an computer science rankings are done exactly the same way.

[Anonymous]

NP--I don't know about the rest, but the PP is way closer to the truth than you are about how the rankings of individual departments are created.

This discussion is about the rankings of colleges, not individual departments. Given how often the USNWR rankings are invoked on this site, it strikes me as either surprisingly ignorant or dishonest to try to assert "oh, those rankings are actually just based on a few phone calls" but at any rate, I'm glad today can be a learning experience. Here are links that explain the data the main ranking systems draw on:

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings

https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2022/08/30/how-we-rank-americas-top-colleges/?sh=66eb3b781b66

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/wall-street-journal-times-higher-education-college-rankings-2022

https://money.com/best-colleges/methodology/

https://www.degreechoices.com/best-colleges/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The rankings are only a guide and really are bogus in many cases.

For instance: the undergrad engineering rankings for USNWR are "based on surveys of deans and senior faculty members at engineering programs". It's a popularity contest. I can only imagine the behind scenes negotiations between universities.
It's why programs like WPI/clarkson/Stevens IT are lower ranked simply because many have not heard about them. Smaller, not as well known nationally schools will simply not move up in rankings with this criteria.

So we use them as an initial guide, but visiting gives a MUCH better indicator. And yes, a 17/18yo can tell where they will fit in best. My kid will do their best if they are somewhere THEY want to be. If we as parents "force" them into a decision that we think is right they might regret that.

fyi---my own kids all ended up at what I thought was their "top choice" after first visits. When they set foot on a campus that is the right fit you just see it in their response. All are succeeding/did succeed at college---I think being at the right place goes a long way to making this happen and most importantly for them to be happy while doing it!

okay, sure, all the different ranking systems are bogus and the products of behind the scenes conspiracies (despite the fact that they explicitly lay out their criteria), a short visit is the best way to gauge what a school will be like for four years, and your 17/18 year old has the best judgment about an institution they have no firsthand experience of.

or, in the real world:
- ranking systems look (in exhaustive detail) at the qualifications of students who attend, the resources available to them, and the post-graduate outcomes for each school
- a short visit is incredibly subjective and usually overwhelmed by irrelevant factors (like the weather or the guide's personality or the time of day or whether the college was on vacation when you visited) or statistically insignificant factors (the 10-20 students your eyes happened upon during the tour, or the architecture of the main buildings).
- 17/18 year olds don't have perfect judgment about adult decisions, and they're particularly ill-equipped to gauge what they'll like or dislike about college since they've never been. No one is suggesting their views are worthless or irrelevant, but what they think will matter a lot to them freshman fall will almost certainly not matter nearly as much when they're juniors or seniors (or when they look back at the choice they made, and why, in the years to come).
- no one is suggesting you "force" a kid to attend a school they don't want to. Presumably they applied to a school because they thought it was potentially of interest. The point is, if they say to you "Counter-intuitively, of the schools I was admitted to, I want to select the less good option" it's not just fair but actually a parental responsibility to say "okay, I want to see you succeed and I know a fair amount about college myself and i'm paying for this, so tell me exactly why you want to choose the school that most people feel doesn't do as much to set you up for success, and let's talk about that."

Or you can insist (IN CAPS) "my kid is so smart they're always right about their needs, the empirical data suggesting they're actually not right is bogus and a conspiracy, my role is to endorse whatever my kid decides is best, I'm going to tell them all schools are the same anyway, and there's nothing better for me than seeing their happy smile when they get what they want." Some might see that as both spoiling the kid and abdicating one's parental responsibilities, but it's certainly a well trod path on DCUM and in the DMV so you wouldn't be alone.

"ranking systems look (in exhaustive detail) at the qualifications of students who attend, the resources available to them, and the post-graduate outcomes for each school"

NP--I don't know about the rest, but the PP is way closer to the truth than you are about how the rankings of individual departments are created. Here's a direct quote from USNWR:

"Rankings are based solely on surveys of engineering deans and senior faculty at accredited programs."

The business an computer science rankings are done exactly the same way.

Exactly! It's a "good ole boys network". THat's why all the Large schools (outside of MIT/Stanford/CMU/CalTech/etc) are tops in the rankings, because everyone who isn't an idiot has heard of GaTech for engineering. Not everyone has heard of Co School of mines or WPI or Clarkson or name the smaller engineering schools. If you go only on rankings, you would not visit or consider these excellent schools. IMO, WPI is a true hidden gem, yet many, even in the Northeast have not heard of it. Their loss IMO

and nowhere did I state go solely on what my 17/18yo thinks/feels. Obviously we do our own research to determine what the school has to offer. But going by USNWR popularity contest rankings, WPI falls way below many other schools, yet the avg GPA Unweighted is over 3.9 and has been for years. They have totally eliminated SAT/ACT and began trending that way in 2012 time frame. It's a school with really smart kids (3.9 UW gpa is ridiculously high), highly involved kids with their ECs (be it stem or otherwise). A STEM school that actively worked to get to 50/50 M/F split and are almost there (and likely as close as they will get, I think it's 55/45 currently). My own research tells me much more than USNWR. I can see how the student outcomes are, where kids get jobs, what avg pay is, student satisfaction, coop and internship opportunities, etc.

I'm not obsessed with rankings. I know that my kid will do well anywhere, and ultimately will do their best where they pick and are HAPPY. as an engineering/cs major, I know it does NOT matter where my kid goes, beyond a decent program, it matters what my kid does there and the happier they are with fit and the choices they make the better they will produce during college and afterwards.

That being said, my kid picked a higher ranked school than WPI (top safety) but kept WPI in the mix until the end. The 7-8 week fast paced quarters was the deciding factor along with the other school having an open curriculum that allows them to continue their EC as major part of the core curriculum. My kid ultimately ended up at the school where they just lit up each time we visited---they saw themselves in the tour guides, and other students we met on campus. Adjusting to college 3K miles from home is hard, and I'm so very happy they were at a place that is a fit for them. By Oct they had adjusted and made many friends, involved in both STEM based and their favorite EC based activities. They are happy and thriving, but might not be if we just forced "the higher ranked school", of which they got into 3 that they turned down

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go to the admitted students day at both schools with an open mind. How far apart in rankings are we talking? My DC is in at a private school ranked around 40 (well known in major), but really prefers a public school admitted to that ranks around 120. I feel pretty strongly DC should go with the higher ranked school. DC likes both schools and likes the social scene, football games, etc. at the lower ranked school.

Please let your DC pick themselves! Don't keep mentioning the "rankings" It is their college experience and anyone who can get admitted to ~#40 is smart and motivated and will do well anywhere they go. But they will do best where they are happiest. Imagine if you force them to pick ~#40 and they are miserable--they will blame you forever and that would not be the type of relationship I'd want with my kid

But did you read the part where I said DC preferred the lower ranked school because of the football games, social scene, etc at a big state school? You think this is a valid reason to prefer one school over another when they are so vastly apart on the rankings?

Yes. Absolutely. A kid who’s a great fit for the social scene at a school can go on to make a fortune at a job where social skills are a big deal.

Most people who make a lot of money do well because they’re bright enough and have great social skills, ot because they’re rocket scientists.

One of the most successful guys I know attended Arizona State with an acceptance rate of 88%. Clearly could have attended a more selective school, but wanted to go West. It was LCOL then and that's where he began his real estate empire.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

NP--I don't know about the rest, but the PP is way closer to the truth than you are about how the rankings of individual departments are created.

This discussion is about the rankings of colleges, not individual departments. Given how often the USNWR rankings are invoked on this site, it strikes me as either surprisingly ignorant or dishonest to try to assert "oh, those rankings are actually just based on a few phone calls" but at any rate, I'm glad today can be a learning experience. Here are links that explain the data the main ranking systems draw on:

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings

https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawhitford/2022/08/30/how-we-rank-americas-top-colleges/?sh=66eb3b781b66

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/wall-street-journal-times-higher-education-college-rankings-2022

https://money.com/best-colleges/methodology/

https://www.degreechoices.com/best-colleges/

Why would you care more about "overall college rankings" than the major/dept your kid is interested in? Ultimately, my kid is going for eng and/or CS so I don't really care that their humanities dept makes them top ranked. I want a great STEM program and to know the resources are there for internships/coops/research that interests my kid.