interesting discussion regarding abysmal decline of MoCo schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Put desks in rows.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a MCPS issue it’s a U.S. issue because we want to test and measure every little thing which takes time away from actual instruction. Parents want Mercedes level education but want to pay Hyundai standard level prices. Education requires investment in teacher training, teacher salary, and in actual schools and students. Further, schools do WAAY more than just focus on education including feeding and connection with social services for kids. They have unfounded mandates like I.D.E.A.

When we remove the politics of the above and address them as though our population matters, we’ll see change. Until then, people will continue complaining and believing that Charter schools or Private schools can be the answer, only to determine that’s not a panacea. Hi

Completely false. The US pisses away some of the most money per pupil in the world in education. And for what? Piss poor results. Teachers will always say it is because more money is needed, yet Japan, Singapore, Sweden, South Korea, etc. all spend far less per pupil and absolutely smoke American students across the board.

It is because the US is plagued with loser parents, shitty students, a terrible culture, and way too much dumb emphasis on equality when the only way they implement equality is watering down coursework and lowering the bar. The US is rapidly declining into a developing 2nd world country.

Everyone always compares the money spent to other countries without taking into the many varied difference between them. Mainly culture and government policies. Other countries have more homogeneous population, are smaller, and have governmental policies that value education and the social well being of its citizens more, thus education is not a political football. So like I said, it’s a U.S. issue not a MCPS issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s not forget Curriculum 2.0 and all that nonsense.

MCPS used to focus on gifted and talented instruction but that has fallen out of favor.

So many reasons for the decline in some, but not all, schools.

Focusing on gifted and talented instruction seems problematic. What about the other 95% of students?

It’s more than 5% GT in MCPS. Because at some schools, 75% are testing gifted and talented, so their teachers are going to naturally accelerate. But there are always some GT at every school. Those kids deserve the same opportunities for accelerated instruction. It’s possible to provide these type of opportunities AND provide a decent education to everyone.

I absolutely abhor reading statements like this that slim down GT education and needs to accelerated instruction. Gifted students need more than accelerated instruction, including SEL and at times different types of instruction/work. Parents so want the GT label because they see it as a badge of honor. Yes there are academically advanced kids, but that’s not the same as gifted and I SOO wish we would stop grouping them together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really think the decline is from NCLB. I'm not going to debate the merits of it, but the way it was implemented was flawed.

I have 4 kids spread out in age so I have been in MCPS for a LONG time. I agree with you that implementation of NCLB marked a decline in the school system overall, but, it wasn't just NCLB. NCLB along with a massive increase in the FARMS, ESOL, and special ed put us in a tailspin. Population increase coupled with financial difficulties during the Great Recession marked an increase in class sizes that has never gone done. Curriculum 2.0 was a huge disaster, MS curriculum is a joke.

My kids' ES school (in the DCC) is a good example of the population shifts. These are a snapshot of the years my kids started Kindergarten

2004- FARMS was 40%, ESOL=19%, overall school size was only 499 students.
2009- FARMS was 52%, ESOL=27.5%, overall school size 582 students
2011- FARMS was 50%, ESOL=29%, overall school size 645
2014- FARMS was 52%, ESOL=27%, overall school size 653

It peaked around that 653 number but overall student body is still over 600 kids. I think the FARMS rate is back down to a bit below 50% as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just clicked on the link. Thanks for posting. Most people make really good points. Unfortunately, our BOE and MCPS leadership don’t care.

Smaller class sizes and better discipline sounds like common requests that I think, everyone could get behind. Why can’t MCPS start there?

Except that costs money and a tax hike needed to pay for this will mostly go to create more central office jobs.

The bottom line is MCPS is about the same or even better than years past, the demographics of the county are what has changed. That has an impact on standardized test scores but doesn't mean you can't get a great education. People just need to accept and adapt instead of focusing on a past that never really existed.

True. The demographics of Montgomery County have greatly changed over the past decade and that has had an influence on MCPS.

But that will continue to be the case. And the school system faces many challenges as a direct result of these changing demographics. Doesn’t look promising for MCPS.

School choice coming to VA, hopefully MCPS families are not that stupid.

Vouchers for religious schools are a scam to redirect public tax money into churches that pay no taxes.

They are double-dipping on their tax exempt status.

MCPS is a large school system it has tons of needs nothing is perfect. Parents need to be involved. If you don't feel your kid is getting a good education in MCPS then go back to school. Because every kid I know that has graduated has been successful in college in the sense the reason students fall out have nothing to do with what they did not learn at MCPS.

This thread is full of idiots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just clicked on the link. Thanks for posting. Most people make really good points. Unfortunately, our BOE and MCPS leadership don’t care.

Smaller class sizes and better discipline sounds like common requests that I think, everyone could get behind. Why can’t MCPS start there?

Except that costs money and a tax hike needed to pay for this will mostly go to create more central office jobs.

The bottom line is MCPS is about the same or even better than years past, the demographics of the county are what has changed. That has an impact on standardized test scores but doesn't mean you can't get a great education. People just need to accept and adapt instead of focusing on a past that never really existed.

True. The demographics of Montgomery County have greatly changed over the past decade and that has had an influence on MCPS.

But that will continue to be the case. And the school system faces many challenges as a direct result of these changing demographics. Doesn’t look promising for MCPS.

School choice coming to VA, hopefully MCPS families are not that stupid.

Vouchers for religious schools are a scam to redirect public tax money into churches that pay no taxes.

They are double-dipping on their tax exempt status.

MCPS is a large school system it has tons of needs nothing is perfect. Parents need to be involved. If you don't feel your kid is getting a good education in MCPS then go back to school. Because every kid I know that has graduated has been successful in college in the sense the reason students fall out have nothing to do with what they did not learn at MCPS.

This thread is full of idiots.

Ya, I'm not going to lie. UMC parent here with a middle schooler and high schooler who are both doing fantastic in school. I'm pretty involved, so I know what's happening and I see the quality of their work. I am not worried about my kids. I think for the most part, kids like them will be just fine, go to college, and do well in life. It's the students who come from unfortunate situations who are getting hurt with the MCPS policies that are in place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a MCPS issue it’s a U.S. issue because we want to test and measure every little thing which takes time away from actual instruction. Parents want Mercedes level education but want to pay Hyundai standard level prices. Education requires investment in teacher training, teacher salary, and in actual schools and students. Further, schools do WAAY more than just focus on education including feeding and connection with social services for kids. They have unfounded mandates like I.D.E.A.

When we remove the politics of the above and address them as though our population matters, we’ll see change. Until then, people will continue complaining and believing that Charter schools or Private schools can be the answer, only to determine that’s not a panacea. Hi

Completely false. The US pisses away some of the most money per pupil in the world in education. And for what? Piss poor results. Teachers will always say it is because more money is needed, yet Japan, Singapore, Sweden, South Korea, etc. all spend far less per pupil and absolutely smoke American students across the board.

It is because the US is plagued with loser parents, shitty students, a terrible culture, and way too much dumb emphasis on equality when the only way they implement equality is watering down coursework and lowering the bar. The US is rapidly declining into a developing 2nd world country.

Everyone always compares the money spent to other countries without taking into the many varied difference between them. Mainly culture and government policies. Other countries have more homogeneous population, are smaller, and have governmental policies that value education and the social well being of its citizens more, thus education is not a political football. So like I said, it’s a U.S. issue not a MCPS issue.

I come from one of those countries that spends far less on student education than the US but gets better "outcomes" on the various international tests. You know what we don't do? Educate kids with special needs. Or make sure every kid has the chance to attend college if they want. Kids with special needs are institutionalized back home. We track kids into remedial classes beginning at 5 years old, often because their parent is a known alcoholic or some other social factor, and don't give them any ramps onto general education. Then, of the kids in general ed, we push about a third of them out at 15 and declare them unqualified to prepare for university. So, yes, the test scores are higher but that's because we only let the kids who are "good at school" take the tests at all.

You can say you want that system because you think your kids will be one of the ones for whom it works, and I'll admit it works very well for those kids. But your kid with ADHD, ASD, dyslexia, or just a little slow to mature? Sorry, that child's on the tractor repair track now and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just clicked on the link. Thanks for posting. Most people make really good points. Unfortunately, our BOE and MCPS leadership don’t care.

Smaller class sizes and better discipline sounds like common requests that I think, everyone could get behind. Why can’t MCPS start there?

Except that costs money and a tax hike needed to pay for this will mostly go to create more central office jobs.

The bottom line is MCPS is about the same or even better than years past, the demographics of the county are what has changed. That has an impact on standardized test scores but doesn't mean you can't get a great education. People just need to accept and adapt instead of focusing on a past that never really existed.

True. The demographics of Montgomery County have greatly changed over the past decade and that has had an influence on MCPS.

But that will continue to be the case. And the school system faces many challenges as a direct result of these changing demographics. Doesn’t look promising for MCPS.

School choice coming to VA, hopefully MCPS families are not that stupid.

Vouchers for religious schools are a scam to redirect public tax money into churches that pay no taxes.

They are double-dipping on their tax exempt status.

MCPS is a large school system it has tons of needs nothing is perfect. Parents need to be involved. If you don't feel your kid is getting a good education in MCPS then go back to school. Because every kid I know that has graduated has been successful in college in the sense the reason students fall out have nothing to do with what they did not learn at MCPS.

This thread is full of idiots.

Double dipping? What do you think tax-exempt schools are doing with their money? And how much do public schools pay in taxes that private schools don’t?

Vouchers and private schools have their problems— namely that private schools can pick their students while public schools must accommodate everyone. But the experience of the last few years has definitely led me to believe that public schools need a more credible “competitor” in order to keep them in check.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is not a MCPS issue it’s a U.S. issue because we want to test and measure every little thing which takes time away from actual instruction. Parents want Mercedes level education but want to pay Hyundai standard level prices. Education requires investment in teacher training, teacher salary, and in actual schools and students. Further, schools do WAAY more than just focus on education including feeding and connection with social services for kids. They have unfounded mandates like I.D.E.A.

When we remove the politics of the above and address them as though our population matters, we’ll see change. Until then, people will continue complaining and believing that Charter schools or Private schools can be the answer, only to determine that’s not a panacea. Hi

Completely false. The US pisses away some of the most money per pupil in the world in education. And for what? Piss poor results. Teachers will always say it is because more money is needed, yet Japan, Singapore, Sweden, South Korea, etc. all spend far less per pupil and absolutely smoke American students across the board.

It is because the US is plagued with loser parents, shitty students, a terrible culture, and way too much dumb emphasis on equality when the only way they implement equality is watering down coursework and lowering the bar. The US is rapidly declining into a developing 2nd world country.

Everyone always compares the money spent to other countries without taking into the many varied difference between them. Mainly culture and government policies. Other countries have more homogeneous population, are smaller, and have governmental policies that value education and the social well being of its citizens more, thus education is not a political football. So like I said, it’s a U.S. issue not a MCPS issue.

I come from one of those countries that spends far less on student education than the US but gets better "outcomes" on the various international tests. You know what we don't do? Educate kids with special needs. Or make sure every kid has the chance to attend college if they want. Kids with special needs are institutionalized back home. We track kids into remedial classes beginning at 5 years old, often because their parent is a known alcoholic or some other social factor, and don't give them any ramps onto general education. Then, of the kids in general ed, we push about a third of them out at 15 and declare them unqualified to prepare for university. So, yes, the test scores are higher but that's because we only let the kids who are "good at school" take the tests at all.

You can say you want that system because you think your kids will be one of the ones for whom it works, and I'll admit it works very well for those kids. But your kid with ADHD, ASD, dyslexia, or just a little slow to mature? Sorry, that child's on the tractor repair track now and there's nothing you can do about it.

It’s been overwhelmingly clear from many, many posts on Dcum from parents and teachers alike that there are a lot of people that don’t care what happens to those students. It’s actually gotten increasingly common for posters to advocate for segregating kids with special or remedial needs into separate programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just clicked on the link. Thanks for posting. Most people make really good points. Unfortunately, our BOE and MCPS leadership don’t care.

Smaller class sizes and better discipline sounds like common requests that I think, everyone could get behind. Why can’t MCPS start there?

Except that costs money and a tax hike needed to pay for this will mostly go to create more central office jobs.

The bottom line is MCPS is about the same or even better than years past, the demographics of the county are what has changed. That has an impact on standardized test scores but doesn't mean you can't get a great education. People just need to accept and adapt instead of focusing on a past that never really existed.

True. The demographics of Montgomery County have greatly changed over the past decade and that has had an influence on MCPS.

But that will continue to be the case. And the school system faces many challenges as a direct result of these changing demographics. Doesn’t look promising for MCPS.

School choice coming to VA, hopefully MCPS families are not that stupid.

Vouchers for religious schools are a scam to redirect public tax money into churches that pay no taxes.

They are double-dipping on their tax exempt status.

MCPS is a large school system it has tons of needs nothing is perfect. Parents need to be involved. If you don't feel your kid is getting a good education in MCPS then go back to school. Because every kid I know that has graduated has been successful in college in the sense the reason students fall out have nothing to do with what they did not learn at MCPS.

This thread is full of idiots.

No, actually you are the ignorant one.

This is already happening in MCPS. MCPS uses tax-payer money to hire teachers that it sends to private religious schools in the County. Taxpayers pay to send teachers to Catholic, Jewish and Muslim schools in the county to teach the kids there.

My neighbor does this and travels around to several schools. Employed by MCPS, gets MCPS benefits. But doesn’t teach in an actual MCPS public school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just clicked on the link. Thanks for posting. Most people make really good points. Unfortunately, our BOE and MCPS leadership don’t care.

Smaller class sizes and better discipline sounds like common requests that I think, everyone could get behind. Why can’t MCPS start there?

Except that costs money and a tax hike needed to pay for this will mostly go to create more central office jobs.

The bottom line is MCPS is about the same or even better than years past, the demographics of the county are what has changed. That has an impact on standardized test scores but doesn't mean you can't get a great education. People just need to accept and adapt instead of focusing on a past that never really existed.

True. The demographics of Montgomery County have greatly changed over the past decade and that has had an influence on MCPS.

But that will continue to be the case. And the school system faces many challenges as a direct result of these changing demographics. Doesn’t look promising for MCPS.

School choice coming to VA, hopefully MCPS families are not that stupid.

Vouchers for religious schools are a scam to redirect public tax money into churches that pay no taxes.

They are double-dipping on their tax exempt status.

MCPS is a large school system it has tons of needs nothing is perfect. Parents need to be involved. If you don't feel your kid is getting a good education in MCPS then go back to school. Because every kid I know that has graduated has been successful in college in the sense the reason students fall out have nothing to do with what they did not learn at MCPS.

This thread is full of idiots.

Don’t worry. School choice will never come to Montgomery County. Voters and our trusty Democrat politicians will be sure of that.

You only get the privilege of ‘school choice’ if you are wealthy and can afford private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just clicked on the link. Thanks for posting. Most people make really good points. Unfortunately, our BOE and MCPS leadership don’t care.

Smaller class sizes and better discipline sounds like common requests that I think, everyone could get behind. Why can’t MCPS start there?

Except that costs money and a tax hike needed to pay for this will mostly go to create more central office jobs.

The bottom line is MCPS is about the same or even better than years past, the demographics of the county are what has changed. That has an impact on standardized test scores but doesn't mean you can't get a great education. People just need to accept and adapt instead of focusing on a past that never really existed.

True. The demographics of Montgomery County have greatly changed over the past decade and that has had an influence on MCPS.

But that will continue to be the case. And the school system faces many challenges as a direct result of these changing demographics. Doesn’t look promising for MCPS.

School choice coming to VA, hopefully MCPS families are not that stupid.

Vouchers for religious schools are a scam to redirect public tax money into churches that pay no taxes.

They are double-dipping on their tax exempt status.

MCPS is a large school system it has tons of needs nothing is perfect. Parents need to be involved. If you don't feel your kid is getting a good education in MCPS then go back to school. Because every kid I know that has graduated has been successful in college in the sense the reason students fall out have nothing to do with what they did not learn at MCPS.

This thread is full of idiots.

Don’t worry. School choice will never come to Montgomery County. Voters and our trusty Democrat politicians will be sure of that.

You only get the privilege of ‘school choice’ if you are wealthy and can afford private school.

MCPS did the charter school experiment back in 2012ish and it failed spectaculary. I'm convinced MCPS knew it would be a major cluster, and that's why they approved it.

[Anonymous]

To the PP who complained about educating ESL kids….

From my perspective, the issue is that we expect the schools to do all this, and do it on the schools dime. Along with feeding kids, providing mental health support, developmental therapies for kids who need them, making sure they are clothed, etc. Schools are the catch all social service for most poor kids and then people get mad when schools are spending so much money without better educational outcomes. If we had a more robust social service network in this country (including ESL support for kids outside the school system), schools could focus more on teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the PP who complained about educating ESL kids….

From my perspective, the issue is that we expect the schools to do all this, and do it on the schools dime. Along with feeding kids, providing mental health support, developmental therapies for kids who need them, making sure they are clothed, etc. Schools are the catch all social service for most poor kids and then people get mad when schools are spending so much money without better educational outcomes. If we had a more robust social service network in this country (including ESL support for kids outside the school system), schools could focus more on teaching.

We do. We have an incredibly robust social services network in Montgomery County. Your tax dollars are funding it. That is why so many people come here, from all over the world!

Through a myriad of non-profit, government and religious institutions, children and their parents can learn English, if they choose to do so outside of public schools. Besides that, children have easy access to health insurance, medical care, free transportation, free food, free clothes and free backpacks.

MCPS can focus on education and leave the rest to all the other agencies ready and willing to provide these other services.

[Anonymous]

Still the best public school system in the nation and significantly stronger than top area privates in STEM